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Author Topic: Bach Bass too flat  (Read 2232 times)
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elmsandr

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« Reply #40 on: Jan 01, 2018, 06:59PM »

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't follow as to why you didn't use the original tuning slide tube in the conversion, and how you know the Thayer valve set isn't just shorter than the original valve set.
Because I wanted to keep the original dependent section.  Parts were cheap enough I didnít worry about it.

And the length of the valve section is irrelevant.  Iím only talking about the length of the straight section of the tuning slides.  The length of the valve section would matter for the overall tuning of the horn, Iím just pointing out that bach noticed the issue and made a change on their own.  Not sure when, but somewhere between 1969 and 2004.

They arenít ďtoo longĒ for most to play them without issue, even at a high professional level.  Just that letís say the design intent is for most to play with the horn @ A440 with the tuning slide out ~1/2-3/4Ē out.  My guess is that they missed that by at least 3/16ths.   Just enough for those that play on the extreme of pitch to not have any room on the slide to adjust.

Cheers,
Andy
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Andrew Elms
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« Reply #41 on: Jan 01, 2018, 09:41PM »

I assume Bach shortened the tuning slides sometime in the 60s.  My MV was too long so I cut it.  I also have two corps from the 70s that are the modern length.
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« Reply #42 on: Jan 01, 2018, 11:18PM »

I assume Bach shortened the tuning slides sometime in the 60s.  My MV was too long so I cut it.  I also have two corps from the 70s that are the modern length.

I am glad I found out about this. I almost bought a Bach 50A3...I think that this would not have gotten by Vincent if he was still alive and running the company.
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Burgerbob

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« Reply #43 on: Jan 02, 2018, 12:58AM »

I do have one tuning slide with an abnormally long bell side leg. The bottom was cut to fit my Thayers (I assume), so it's both shorter and longer than all my other tuning slides. MV? It should be a Corporation setup.
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« Reply #44 on: Jan 02, 2018, 03:18AM »

Interesting thread!
Swedish people are often on the tall size. Pitch standard in Swedish orchestras are A=442Hz. Both single valve Bach basses and double valve basses do often have shortend tuning slides in Sweden.
About mouth cavity. I have an unusualy big mouth cavity, checked by my dentist. I donīt know, but I tend to belive that it can have an effect on the tuning. The idea of buzzing to low or high is interesting, most people who play trombone for their living try to play the horn with the best sound possible I believe, not many players compare their mpc buzzing F with the F played in the horn. Yes some do, but not so many that it should have an inpact of the most players tuning issues.
Older trombone players in Sweden, older the me, (I am 73) very often played all D:s above the staff on 4th position to be in tune. And the Bb on the bumper.


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« Reply #45 on: Jan 02, 2018, 04:36AM »

I donīt know, but I tend to belive that it can have an effect on the tuning.


I had not thought of that until username Liche mentioned it long ago.  He was trying to model the trombone mathematically for his thesis and if I recall correctly said he had to include some of the mouth and throat. 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #46 on: Jan 02, 2018, 08:14AM »

Because I wanted to keep the original dependent section.  Parts were cheap enough I didnít worry about it.

And the length of the valve section is irrelevant.  Iím only talking about the length of the straight section of the tuning slides.  The length of the valve section would matter for the overall tuning of the horn, Iím just pointing out that bach noticed the issue and made a change on their own.  Not sure when, but somewhere between 1969 and 2004.

They arenít ďtoo longĒ for most to play them without issue, even at a high professional level.  Just that letís say the design intent is for most to play with the horn @ A440 with the tuning slide out ~1/2-3/4Ē out.  My guess is that they missed that by at least 3/16ths.   Just enough for those that play on the extreme of pitch to not have any room on the slide to adjust.

Cheers,
Andy
Well no, it's not irrelevant. If the length of the thayer section you installed was shorter from where it connects to the receiver, to the tuning slide tube, then there would be a gap, even if the new tuning slide outer were the same length as the old one. You seemed to be saying the fact that there's a gap proves the new part is shorter than the old part. Maybe you also compared the two parts side by side,  but you didn't say that you did.
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elmsandr

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« Reply #47 on: Jan 02, 2018, 10:19AM »

Well no, it's not irrelevant. If the length of the thayer section you installed was shorter from where it connects to the receiver, to the tuning slide tube, then there would be a gap, even if the new tuning slide outer were the same length as the old one. You seemed to be saying the fact that there's a gap proves the new part is shorter than the old part. Maybe you also compared the two parts side by side,  but you didn't say that you did.
Dang it, Brad, just look at the picture!  The tuning slide on the small side is actually too close to the tuning slide if you look, not too close to the handslide receiver that would be required by what you state. Recall that this ferrule from Bach is countersunk for the tuning slide receiver, so it sits flush into a shoulder on the ferrule.  That is, you can assemble the ferrule and receiver sitting on the bench without the horn. FWIW, I put the handslide receiver joint in the exact place it was on the original because I didn't want to screw up the bell rim placement relative to my face.

On this initial mount, I cheated the the small one towards the tuning slide bow because it was shorter.  The straight sections of nickel tubing are different length.  A picture isn't a good way to exactly measure this, but it is off by about 1/2".  It would still be off if the valves were sitting in the box unopened just looking at the brace locations relative to the ferrules and main tuning slide bow.  The small and large tuning slide tubes are supposed to be the same length. They were the same length on the factory parts, they were not when I mixed parts of different vintages (the entire point of the picture). For fun, I also had to trim the main tuning slide tube on the NY45 when I made that tuning slide and bell flare fit the same valve section later (and planning for a NY50 that is sitting next to it).  Having had to make the same cut several times, you tend to remember it.  Especially if you lose one of those little beauty rings on the end of the tuning slide. 

I'll take some pictures and measurements of my 42 parts later to show this if I have a chance when I get home.

Cheers,
Andy
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Andrew Elms
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« Reply #48 on: Jan 02, 2018, 10:50AM »

I's a flat Bach anything like fatback?
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« Reply #49 on: Jan 02, 2018, 11:46AM »

I's a flat Bach anything like fatback?

No.  I have a fat back but my Bach is not flat. :-P
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« Reply #50 on: Jan 02, 2018, 12:31PM »

Dang it, Brad, just look at the picture!  The tuning slide on the small side is actually too close to the tuning slide if you look, not too close to the handslide receiver that would be required by what you state. Recall that this ferrule from Bach is countersunk for the tuning slide receiver, so it sits flush into a shoulder on the ferrule.  That is, you can assemble the ferrule and receiver sitting on the bench without the horn. FWIW, I put the handslide receiver joint in the exact place it was on the original because I didn't want to screw up the bell rim placement relative to my face.

On this initial mount, I cheated the the small one towards the tuning slide bow because it was shorter.  The straight sections of nickel tubing are different length.  A picture isn't a good way to exactly measure this, but it is off by about 1/2".  It would still be off if the valves were sitting in the box unopened just looking at the brace locations relative to the ferrules and main tuning slide bow.  The small and large tuning slide tubes are supposed to be the same length. They were the same length on the factory parts, they were not when I mixed parts of different vintages (the entire point of the picture). For fun, I also had to trim the main tuning slide tube on the NY45 when I made that tuning slide and bell flare fit the same valve section later (and planning for a NY50 that is sitting next to it).  Having had to make the same cut several times, you tend to remember it.  Especially if you lose one of those little beauty rings on the end of the tuning slide. 

I'll take some pictures and measurements of my 42 parts later to show this if I have a chance when I get home.

Cheers,
Andy
None of that has anything to do with what I asked you. I did look at the picture, obviously, which is why I asked you those questions. But you seem to be getting upset about this for no reason, so let's just forget it, o.k.?
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« Reply #51 on: Jan 02, 2018, 12:46PM »

When players had smaller oral cavities?

You know, I see the terms "large" and "small" oral cavity used here quite a lot by different people. How do you know for sure if you have a large or small oral cavity? In fact what is an average oral cavity? I dont think I have ever heard of anyone going to the dentist to have them remark on the unusal size of their oral cavity. Is it dependant on how many marshmallows you can fit in your mouth at any one time?  :D
 
I suspect this is a made up term by trombone players.... but I would love to be proven wrong and find out where my own oral cavity sits on the scale.

 The typical Wagnerian Soprano has a large oral cavity. Isnít that obvious?
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« Reply #52 on: Jan 02, 2018, 01:23PM »

The typical Wagnerian Soprano has a large oral cavity. Isnít that obvious?


Well obviously not to me. I am always keen to learn though. How do you know this? Are you assuming? Or is there some test wagnerian sopranos go through to find out if they have an oral cavity "large" enough to be appropriate? Do they get told not to bother if their oral cavity isnt up to a minimum size determined by someone else?
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« Reply #53 on: Jan 02, 2018, 01:28PM »


Well obviously not to me. I am always keen to learn though. How do you know this? Are you assuming? Or is there some test wagnerian sopranos go through to find out if they have an oral cavity "large" enough to be appropriate? Do they get told not to bother if their oral cavity isnt up to a minimum size determined by someone else?

I can't tell if you're recognizing the joke and taking it one step further or didn't get it, but just in case: He was making a joke that sopranos talk a lot.  Anecdotally, it isn't too far from the truth  ;-)
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« Reply #54 on: Jan 02, 2018, 01:30PM »

I can't tell if you're recognizing the joke and taking it one step further or didn't get it, but just in case: He was making a joke that sopranos talk a lot.  Anecdotally, it isn't too far from the truth  ;-)

Hahahaha!!!! Right. Thanks for the save. Definitely went over my head. The forum is a dangerous place  :D
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« Reply #55 on: Jan 02, 2018, 01:31PM »

I can't tell if you're recognizing the joke and taking it one step further or didn't get it, but just in case: He was making a joke that sopranos talk a lot.  Anecdotally, it isn't too far from the truth  ;-)
Well, they do have nice voices.
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« Reply #56 on: Jan 02, 2018, 05:10PM »

Last time I went to the dentist he said I had a big cavity.
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« Reply #57 on: Jan 02, 2018, 05:32PM »

I can't tell if you're recognizing the joke and taking it one step further or didn't get it, but just in case: He was making a joke that sopranos talk a lot.  Anecdotally, it isn't too far from the truth  ;-)

Have you heard one sing a scale?

Do, re, me, me, me, me, me, me. 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #58 on: Jan 02, 2018, 06:56PM »

One more point for somebody of a more recent vintage than myself to post about-

So many Bach basses were being cut to accommodate the use of the original length Schilke mouthpieces, that eventually Schilke changed to a standard Morse taper ( Bach taper) and Bach shank length.
I like this theory too. Would explain why not many people cut the newer basses but you'll bump into horns from the 70's and 80's with cut tuning slides.
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« Reply #59 on: Jan 02, 2018, 07:04PM »

How many soprano's does it take to change a light bulb?

3

1 to stand on the chair to change the bulb

1 to kick the chair out from under the first one

and 1 to stand and say "I could do it better than that"!!

M
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