Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1097249 Posts in 72498 Topics- by 19558 Members - Latest Member: Shinbone021401
Jump to:  
Pages: 1 [2]  All   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Harmonic series terminology?  (Read 965 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Le.Tromboniste
*
Offline Offline

Location: Basel, Switzerland
Joined: Aug 5, 2008
Posts: 454

View Profile
« Reply #20 on: Jan 20, 2018, 09:16AM »

Are you saying nobody should be using the word series in any context because it has a different meaning in maths as the general meaning people understand it to have?
No. I'm suggesting to use the words in the same way that mathematicians use the words.


Yup, got nothing more to say
Logged

Maximilien Brisson
robcat2075

*
Offline Offline

Location: Dallas, Texas
Joined: Apr 19, 2009
Posts: 6781

View Profile
« Reply #21 on: Jan 20, 2018, 09:31AM »

"Series" has a lot of uses outside of even music or math that are not exactly like how it is used in music or math so maybe it is asking more than we need for even the music and math "series' to align exactly.

a television series
a series of steps
The World Series
the HAL Series 9000
a twelve-tone series ("serial" music)
wiring in series

You'll never be able to conform all those.

Logged

Robert Holmén

Hear me as I Play My Horn


Get your Popper, Dotzauer, or Kummer play-alongs!
Andrew Meronek

*
Offline Offline

Location: Livonia, MI
Joined: Sep 30, 2001
Posts: 7004
"Justly Intoned"


View Profile
« Reply #22 on: Jan 21, 2018, 06:18AM »

You'll never be able to conform all those.

I never said I want to.  Don't know
Logged

"All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians."

- Thelonious Monk
Andrew Meronek

*
Offline Offline

Location: Livonia, MI
Joined: Sep 30, 2001
Posts: 7004
"Justly Intoned"


View Profile
« Reply #23 on: Jan 21, 2018, 06:20AM »

Yup, got nothing more to say

OK . . .

If you're not interested in looking at a different angle to try to come to a deeper understanding of some of music theory, why take part in this thread?
Logged

"All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians."

- Thelonious Monk
harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2901

View Profile
« Reply #24 on: Jan 21, 2018, 08:23AM »

OK . . .

If you're not interested in looking at a different angle to try to come to a deeper understanding of some of music theory, why take part in this thread?



"Deeper understanding? I just want to know which stinkin copper-zinc alloy this trumpet mouthpiece I bought goes to!"
Logged

Edwards Tenor
Conn Alto
Griego Mouthpiece
Le.Tromboniste
*
Offline Offline

Location: Basel, Switzerland
Joined: Aug 5, 2008
Posts: 454

View Profile
« Reply #25 on: Jan 21, 2018, 12:19PM »

OK . . .

If you're not interested in looking at a different angle to try to come to a deeper understanding of some of music theory, why take part in this thread?

Well you're right on one thing, I'm going to leave this thread because I have no interest in it. But you're wrong on the rest. You assume without knowing me I don't have an understanding of it (which I do, to the extant that I studied music and not physics or engineering. I did take acoustics classes and read on the subject and have worked a lot with the concept of harmonics when learning about intonation and different tuning systems. But I of course know much less about acoustics than a trained sound engineer or acoustician) and that I have no interest in learning about it (which I very much do).

But the thing is, you haven't really approached any aspect of music theory in any kind of depth thus far in the discussion, you have merely made a barely substantiated case about how we call it, and that's it. Want to talk about the harmonic series in depth? Go, I'll have things to say and things to learn.

But merely discussing how bad the name it has had for decades is based on the fact that it doesn't line up with another field's terminology is a sterile and pretty useless discussion. A) nobody cares how it's called if they understand what it is and how it works, B) we're not going to change the name that every musician and every acoustician and every book uses at the end of this discussion. It'll still be called the harmonic series at the end of the day.
Logged

Maximilien Brisson
Andrew Meronek

*
Offline Offline

Location: Livonia, MI
Joined: Sep 30, 2001
Posts: 7004
"Justly Intoned"


View Profile
« Reply #26 on: Jan 21, 2018, 01:51PM »

But merely discussing how bad the name it has had for decades is based on the fact that it doesn't line up with another field's terminology is a sterile and pretty useless discussion. A) nobody cares how it's called if they understand what it is and how it works, B) we're not going to change the name that every musician and every acoustician and every book uses at the end of this discussion. It'll still be called the harmonic series at the end of the day.

It's not a *bad* name, just trying to be part of a discussion about improving it. Innovation comes very often from cross-disciplinary insights.
Logged

"All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians."

- Thelonious Monk
robcat2075

*
Offline Offline

Location: Dallas, Texas
Joined: Apr 19, 2009
Posts: 6781

View Profile
« Reply #27 on: Jan 21, 2018, 02:08PM »


Quote
You'll never be able to conform all those.
I never said I want to.  Don't know

But it seems you are wanting to relate "harmonic" series and mathematical series.

My assertion is that they are not highly related.  They happen to have "series" in both their names, but there isn't some hidden greater meaning in that.
Logged

Robert Holmén

Hear me as I Play My Horn


Get your Popper, Dotzauer, or Kummer play-alongs!
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 51746
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #28 on: Jan 21, 2018, 04:22PM »

The Mathematical series intends to show a sum of harmonics.  According to Wikipedia:

Quote
Its name derives from the concept of overtones, or harmonics in music: the wavelengths of the overtones of a vibrating string

The whole article is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(mathematics)

We know that there are vibrating modes of a string or column of air.  In fact, the sound we produce is a mixture of harmonics; the relative amplitudes of them dictating the tonal quality.  My sound is not a pure wave and I suspect nobody else's is either.
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch. President 2017-2018
Le.Tromboniste
*
Offline Offline

Location: Basel, Switzerland
Joined: Aug 5, 2008
Posts: 454

View Profile
« Reply #29 on: Jan 22, 2018, 01:12AM »

  My sound is not a pure wave and I suspect nobody else's is either.

That is correct. In fact nothing naturally produces a pure wave, the only way to do it is electronically and although it's "pure", it sounds to us very foreign and not natural at all.
Logged

Maximilien Brisson
Andrew Meronek

*
Offline Offline

Location: Livonia, MI
Joined: Sep 30, 2001
Posts: 7004
"Justly Intoned"


View Profile
« Reply #30 on: Jan 22, 2018, 05:11AM »

I never said I want to.  Don't know


But it seems you are wanting to relate "harmonic" series and mathematical series.

My assertion is that they are not highly related.  They happen to have "series" in both their names, but there isn't some hidden greater meaning in that.

No, I was trying to assert, however badly, that they are noy highly related and that there are other concepts in math that relate to a musical harmonic series better. There are actually a couple of different concepts in use in math, with different terminology, that are used more precisely:

The harmonic sequence is the set of fractions of it's unit length a string vibrates when driven: 1/1, 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, . . .

An algebraic progression, in our case derived by adding one to each successive term, is the substance of the extended ratio of frequencies that sound a driven string: 1,2,3,4, . . . is the progression; 1:2:3:4: . . . is the extended ratio.

I've seen people use "musical harmonic series" for both. They are certainly closely related, but not the same thing. I've also seen people refer to a specific octave of the musical harmonic series: 8/8, 9/8, 10/8, 11/8, 12/8, 13/8, 14/8, 15/8 which is a different way of expressing a part of that extended ratio.
Logged

"All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians."

- Thelonious Monk
Pages: 1 [2]  All   Go Up
Print
Jump to: