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Author Topic: Types of spit valves and benefits  (Read 875 times)
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RBBERN01
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« on: Jan 01, 2018, 07:43PM »

Hi everyone, Iíve started to do research into swapping out my spit valve for something new. I have a Saturn water key on one of my other horns but was curious what everyone else was using and how they like it. Thank you all for any help ahead of time!
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BGuttman
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« Reply #1 on: Jan 01, 2018, 07:55PM »

If you find one that increases range, improves tone, and folds the wash, please let me know :-P
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #2 on: Jan 02, 2018, 12:50PM »

On a more serious note, Amado keys tend to gurgle (probably too small a hole for trombone; they work great on trumpets, though).  The Saturns have had good press.  Not heard anything good about the JoyKey (except if you are playing over the bari sax's head ;-) ).

I know how to make everything REALLY bad: take the cork out of a regular valve.
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Bruce Guttman
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Matt K

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« Reply #3 on: Jan 02, 2018, 12:55PM »

I put Saturns on all of my horns  as soon as it becomes expedient.  Amado keys need to be oiled regularly. They don't work very well on trombones unless you do that but that fact doens't seem to get communicated from the manufacturer to the end users!

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« Reply #4 on: Jan 02, 2018, 01:30PM »

The stardard water keys really work the best...
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RBBERN01
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« Reply #5 on: Jan 02, 2018, 01:52PM »

On a more serious note, Amado keys tend to gurgle (probably too small a hole for trombone; they work great on trumpets, though).  The Saturns have had good press.  Not heard anything good about the JoyKey (except if you are playing over the bari sax's head ;-) ).

I know how to make everything REALLY bad: take the cork out of a regular valve.
Iíd be worried that a JoyKey would leak air ontop of the spit. It seems like an interesting idea, but Iím not sure if itís very practical.
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BGuttman
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« Reply #6 on: Jan 02, 2018, 02:07PM »

The JoyKey depends on a small amount of liquid to create the seal.

There's an interesting thing on some German trombones that actuates the water key from where you hold the slide.

There's another one where a spring loaded seal is released by putting the bow of the slide on the ground.

Don't think either of them help tone or range in any way.  They are pretty cool, though.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #7 on: Jan 02, 2018, 04:07PM »

The stardard water keys really work the best...

Yup!

I have an Amado on one of my 42s. Horrible key for trombone.
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« Reply #8 on: Jan 02, 2018, 06:24PM »

The JoyKey depends on a small amount of liquid to create the seal.

There's an interesting thing on some German trombones that actuates the water key from where you hold the slide.

There's another one where a spring loaded seal is released by putting the bow of the slide on the ground.

Don't think either of them help tone or range in any way.  They are pretty cool, though.

Best thing about that water key actuater remote control thing is you can open the spit valve and play silly low Bs in first on the fly.
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Kris Danielsen
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RBBERN01
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« Reply #9 on: Jan 02, 2018, 08:26PM »

The stardard water keys really work the best...
I actually liked the Saturn more than the standard water key. I didnít have to worry about it getting caught on anything, and I never worried about the seal breaking due to a faulty cork. It looks like the Saturn may be the best of all the new water key designs.
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RJMason
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« Reply #10 on: Jan 02, 2018, 09:44PM »

Saturn Keys are convenient and good if you are in usual stationary trombone playing position, playing in orchestra or big band.  But if youíre moving around on a brass band or marching band gig a lot, the ball inside may not be as secure or the key itself will loosen up. You can tighten it by hand back into place.   Iíve had Saturns on three different slides, from copies to the original maker, plastic rings and metal rings, and they always break on me, get loosened up, or get caught on a clip on microphone wiring. The Original Saturn Key worked best, but Iíve still had a leaky slide and water coming out when Iím not pressing it. But thatís the kind of work I do. Amados seem too small for trombones, I had one to replace a broken BAC Saturnu temporarily, it worked a bit, but felt like I was emptying it out all the time because it wasnít getting enough moisture out.

I like the old water keys the best, preferably with a short press key like the Bach or Conn. those can get caught up in wires too, but donít leak on me at all if corked correctly and if something goes wrong on a gig can be easily fixed with tape or gum ;-)...pull off the slide to empty it.
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« Reply #11 on: Jan 03, 2018, 06:59AM »

I had so many problems with my traditional water keys on my 42 (plural even though on a single horn because the solder gave away twice and a key broke in halves once, not mentioning several broken springs or leaky cork pads...)  that I eventually switched to a Saturn, and it works amazing, and then had that installed on my sackbut when I had it made. I went from having an average of one water key malfunction per year to none in the last 5 or 6 years since I got the Saturn. There is nothing that really wears down on it. The most ingenious part of the concept is that the spring is low tension, and activating the key barely compresses it. It can go forever before breaking and needing replacement. Plus everytime you use it after recently lubricating your slide, some oil runs through the spring.

Amado is too small for trombones in my experience, you think your horn is empty and then it gurgles 10 seconds later. Plus, it tends to get stuck, and when it does, it's a bigger problem than having a malfunction with a traditional water key. (can't use an elastic band or have access to the hole to tape it shut if you're in trouble)

The old concept where you press your horn to the floor and the pin depresses into your slide is a really neat idea, but it also tends to break down and put you in a situation much harder to get out of than when a traditional key fails.

There is another option which I can't recall the name, that seems very promising but I haven't seen or heard of anybody that uses it. It's the same concept as an Amado, except it's a cone instead of a cylinder, which means the solid core is only in contact with the walls of the casing when the key is closed, so it is impossible for it to get stuck in open position. Contrary to the Amado, they make different sizes for different instruments, so the trombone one is larger.
EDIT : Found it :http://www.pollardwaterkey.com/aboutkey
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Maximilien Brisson
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« Reply #12 on: Jan 03, 2018, 07:51AM »

I modified an Amado for my 20H Conquest. I drilled a larger hole through the body and machined a wider and deeper trough in the piston. A lot of labor, but works great.
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« Reply #13 on: Jan 03, 2018, 07:55AM »

Has anyone tried the Sheridan water key that replaces the slide bumper?
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« Reply #14 on: Jan 03, 2018, 08:29AM »

Has anyone tried the Sheridan water key that replaces the slide bumper?

That's what I was referring to earlier here :
The old concept where you press your horn to the floor and the pin depresses into your slide is a really neat idea, but it also tends to break down and put you in a situation much harder to get out of than with a traditional key.

I haven't tried one from Sheridan, but that concept has been around for over a century. Actually I'm not sure but I think it might have been invented (or at least, applied to trombones) earlier than the traditional key. There are French romantic trombones with that water key on them, also I've been told (haven't seen a specimen however) that some German makers back then would offer them as an option as well, integrated in the snake decoration at the slide.

They are the most typical water key you see on modern replicas of bass sackbuts - with the very long slide, a traditional water key is out of range unless you make the lever super long, which makes the assembly structurally weak and is visually not at all discreet. Having no water key, although historically correct, is extremely impractical with a bass (especially a D bass). The horn I'm playing right now doesn't have one and it's a real pain to take the slide out everytime and put it back with my arms completely extended...plus it requires a lot more planning, because you can only do it between pieces or in very long rests.... That water key concept is visually subtle and could be confused with just a decoration on the bow, and drains the huge amount of water a bass sackbut accumulates whenever you have rests kong enough to put the instrument down for a few seconds. It does have the possibility to break or get stuck though.

For a tenor, where reaching the end of the slide is really no trouble, I don't really see this concept competing with the Saturn or even the traditional keys.
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Maximilien Brisson
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« Reply #15 on: Jan 04, 2018, 11:07AM »

I like the ones that are on the horn stock the best. I wouldn't mind a little more capacity for those long lyrical solo pieces but I guess more would be too much. 
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« Reply #16 on: Jan 04, 2018, 07:35PM »

Not a new style of water key by any means, but the water key on a new M&W slide I have is the best executed spit key that I have ever seen.  Just top notch fit and finish and looks like there was plenty of attention to detail on something very small.

Kudos to them, and consider a slide from M&W.

Cheers,
Andy
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Andrew Elms
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« Reply #17 on: Jan 04, 2018, 07:57PM »

Pics of the M&W key?
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« Reply #18 on: Jan 04, 2018, 08:05PM »

Pics of the M&W key?

It's just a standard water key no?
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Maximilien Brisson
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« Reply #19 on: Jan 05, 2018, 05:23PM »

It's just a standard water key no?
Yes, but I would describe it as a low profile water key.

I might get a chance to get a picture up later this weekend.

Cheers,
Andy
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Andrew Elms
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