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Author Topic: Low C above pedal Bb  (Read 1245 times)
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MontyPython
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« Reply #20 on: Jan 14, 2018, 05:11PM »

A useful question that probably should have been asked earlier...

How long have you been working on this?

How long have you been on bass trombone? How long on this mouthpiece? How long have you been working on this note?


A week? A  month? A year?
18 months
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greenbean
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« Reply #21 on: Jan 14, 2018, 05:21PM »

I am going to guess that Gabe Langfur identified the problem in his post above.  Take a look.
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« Reply #22 on: Jan 14, 2018, 05:23PM »

Take time and go slow. It took me basically my entire undergrad to get over some chop issues I had in the Low C and Low B range.  

You'll get it, just don't rush into things. Things will be slow... start just trying to get the note to speak and hack at it everyday. Do the advice that Doug and Gabe mentioned earlier in the thread and you'll eventually get to honking out those notes!
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« Reply #23 on: Jan 14, 2018, 05:42PM »

There isn't enough handslide length in the handslide to play a low C in tune on a single valve horn.

If that is the case, would it be worth working it as a falset position instead, like svenne does? 

Except I don't know where on the slide he plays it. 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #24 on: Jan 14, 2018, 08:14PM »

18 months

OK... that is rather past the etude stage.  You're doing something wrong.  :/
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« Reply #25 on: Jan 15, 2018, 05:09AM »

Yes, this.

I'm guessing you have a big shift for a pedal Bb. Is that right? If so, practice playing the pedal Bb more like the Bb an octave above. Can you slur down the octave from Bb in the staff to pedal Bb? Work on that, keeping the basic angle of the mouthpiece to your face the same and the jaw drop subtle. Look iin a mirror to see that the motion you do is as simple as possible. Slur back to low Bb. Eventually both notes will change, along with all the notes in between.

Now work on slurring down from low Bb to pedal Bb and then up to low C, all with that same basic mouthpiece angle.

Using that angle, I then do lip slurs up and down the partial series two full octaves with both valves engaged, then with one valve, then on the open horn, moving up chromatically so that I am covering the high range of the instrument as well.

Repeat every day for the rest of your life.

[snip]

This strikes me as an excellent approach.  I struggle with Low C and Low B natural and I'm going to work on it this way.

Gabe, et al, do you have any thoughts about mouthpiece size when working in this area?  Larger mouthpieces make it easier for me, but I fear that is just allowing me to play these notes incorrectly.  Or should I work on this with smaller mouthpieces or even on my tenor with the F slide pulled?  That would make it harder, but might help me make sure I'm doing this correctly.

(I'm not looking for mouthpiece advice - and yes, I know I should work on this with the mouthpiece I play. ;-)  My analytical side of my brain is just curious about the benefits/pitfalls...)

--Andy in OKC
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« Reply #26 on: Jan 15, 2018, 06:43AM »

Quote
If that is the case, would it be worth working it as a falset position instead, like svenne does?
Well, if the low C using two triggers is difficult, the falset will not be easier. Unless there is something wrong with the secund trigger.
(I play the low C on the same position as trigger E v3, or open 7)

The pedal Bb is possible to blow fast and forced. (try not to) The doubble trigger tones does not work the same way. Actually all low tones should be played with a large air volume, but slow air. Maybe you are blowing to hard?

By the way, try another mouthpiece. For me there are so many good mouthpiece out there. But for me the 1G is not working very good, really dont know why.

Find a good bass trombonist, take some lessons, ask her/him about the the horn and low C. And the mouthpiece.
There are some good players using 1G. But they have been playing for a long time and have a very developed embouchure.
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« Reply #27 on: Jan 15, 2018, 07:36AM »

This strikes me as an excellent approach.  I struggle with Low C and Low B natural and I'm going to work on it this way.

Gabe, et al, do you have any thoughts about mouthpiece size when working in this area?  Larger mouthpieces make it easier for me, but I fear that is just allowing me to play these notes incorrectly.  Or should I work on this with smaller mouthpieces or even on my tenor with the F slide pulled?  That would make it harder, but might help me make sure I'm doing this correctly.

(I'm not looking for mouthpiece advice - and yes, I know I should work on this with the mouthpiece I play. ;-)  My analytical side of my brain is just curious about the benefits/pitfalls...)

--Andy in OKC

As you go larger with the rim of the mouthpiece, the angle adjustments necessary for the low range become less pronounced, and there's more margin for error. If you're doing a lot of doubling on tenor, it might be better to stick with a smaller bass trombone mouthpiece so that what you do on each instrument is more similar. But maybe not!

I would caution you to work on the low C area on the bass so that you're not also dealing with twisting your body to get the slide out to b7th. When I play my single valve basses a lot, I have to remind myself to maintain the embouchure/mouthpiece angle that works best for the sound and response rather than the one that's easiest to get with my slide extended.
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Gabe Langfur
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« Reply #28 on: Jan 15, 2018, 01:02PM »

As you go larger with the rim of the mouthpiece, the angle adjustments necessary for the low range become less pronounced, and there's more margin for error. If you're doing a lot of doubling on tenor, it might be better to stick with a smaller bass trombone mouthpiece so that what you do on each instrument is more similar. But maybe not!

I would caution you to work on the low C area on the bass so that you're not also dealing with twisting your body to get the slide out to b7th. When I play my single valve basses a lot, I have to remind myself to maintain the embouchure/mouthpiece angle that works best for the sound and response rather than the one that's easiest to get with my slide extended.

Yes Gabe!!!

This is also very important for tenor trombonists ho wish to have a modicum of usable control in the 5th, 6th and 7th extended positions on up to the 8th partial. Our arm motions and extensions torque right on back to our left hand grip, and the lower ranges are not the only placed where we need to be careful about angles and placements, they are simply the largest movements and thus the most easily noticeable.

S.

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« Reply #29 on: Jan 15, 2018, 01:28PM »

I play the low C on the same position as trigger E v3, or open 7

v2  ;-)

/Tom
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« Reply #30 on: Jan 15, 2018, 01:46PM »

I tried that today.  The falset in 7 on the Bb side was about the same response as in about 2.5 on the F trigger.  I never thought of trying it with the trigger that way.

For me, the low range requires the mouthpiece motion towards the lower right quadrant.  So reaching for a long 7th naturally assists a bit.  In the upper range the opposite will be true.  Either way, as gabe and sam point out, I have to be careful of the effect of the slide leverage. 
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Tim Richardson
Gabe Langfur

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« Reply #31 on: Jan 15, 2018, 05:31PM »

For me, the low range requires the mouthpiece motion towards the lower right quadrant.  So reaching for a long 7th naturally assists a bit. 

Mine is the opposite, unfortunately.
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Gabe Langfur
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« Reply #32 on: Jan 16, 2018, 08:21AM »

This is tangentially related, but I thought Iíd ask our bass pros.


I understand the necessity of minimizing the shift, but we all have a shift at some point, donít we?  I donít shift until around pedal G, but I cannot play pedal G down to pedal D without a shift.  If I have to connect those ranges to the trigger ranges, I usually plan where I need to shift ďback.Ē  Thereís a certain level of overlap where I can play pedal Bb, A, Ab, and the low C and B, with either setting.

For Gabe, Chris, Doug, and Sam, do we ever really eliminate the need to shift?  If Iím using a larger rim I can certainly shift less, but itís there with a 1.5G all the way up to the Yeo Iím playing on. 
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« Reply #33 on: Jan 16, 2018, 08:44AM »

This is tangentially related, but I thought Iíd ask our bass pros.


I understand the necessity of minimizing the shift, but we all have a shift at some point, donít we?  I donít shift until around pedal G, but I cannot play pedal G down to pedal D without a shift.  If I have to connect those ranges to the trigger ranges, I usually plan where I need to shift ďback.Ē  Thereís a certain level of overlap where I can play pedal Bb, A, Ab, and the low C and B, with either setting.

For Gabe, Chris, Doug, and Sam, do we ever really eliminate the need to shift?  If Iím using a larger rim I can certainly shift less, but itís there with a 1.5G all the way up to the Yeo Iím playing on. 

For me, basically no, I have not eliminated the need to shift at all...but that depends on what you mean by shift. I can get out as low as a weak pedal D and sometimes Db, C and B on essentially the same embouchure angle as a pedal Bb, and I can do a shift for a louder pedal F and below without picking up the mouthpiece and moving it to a different spot. For most pedal Fs and Es I prefer not to shift, but you do what you gotta do depending on context.

For the upper-middle and high range, I have an adjustment to the angle of the mouthpiece that Doug Elliott helped me find. The low range is the opposite direction. Thinking about angle rather than shifting is better for me, and enables me to connect registers well.
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Gabe Langfur
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