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Author Topic: Mpcs in British orchestras  (Read 1607 times)
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Ellrod

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« on: Jan 11, 2018, 11:20PM »

I was wondering what British Orchestra trombonists are using these days. Big Alessi mpcs? Bach 5Gs?
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vegasbound
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« Reply #1 on: Jan 11, 2018, 11:33PM »

Most are around the wick or Bach 4-5 size in the tenors!
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« Reply #2 on: Jan 12, 2018, 02:21AM »

4G-5G sizes are almost universal for orchestra tenor players

Bass players vary a bit more... a lot of 2G, some 1 1/2G, some 1 1/4G and a few outliers on big stuff.

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #3 on: Jan 12, 2018, 07:07AM »

As Chris says itís almost exclusively 4G/5G for tenor players, with 5G being more common. Itís also very rare youíll see anything except a Bach or a Wick. Trombone wise the vast majority especially amongst freelancers still play an 88H.
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vegasbound
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« Reply #4 on: Jan 12, 2018, 07:26AM »

One of the exceptions you will of heard of is Carol Jarvis, she plays a DE set up on large bore. Believe it is 102 rim H cup  but Doug could probably tell you for definite .....  But she plays a faux 61/2 in her small bore.....  She is the least gear person you could meet.... At a masterclass someone asked about her small bore mouthpiece and she had to take it out of the horn and read it.... When asked why that size, her reply was it was the one Mick Rath put in the case when she collected it!
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« Reply #5 on: Jan 12, 2018, 08:43AM »

We're doing a concert of English music in Feb. Planets, Folk Song Suite, P&C, and something by someone named Parry. Wonderful stuff, some of my favourite music.

My wife and I are in the UK for a few days in May and I got to thinking how nice it would be to hear an English orch play that music in a smaller English concert hall.

Eric H was blowing out some Wicks a few weeks back. The price was low enough to buy a 5ABL just to experiment. I've since bought a used 5BL (from B Weller) as well. The mpc bug is as bad as ever, but, at least, I'm buying cheaper mpcs. No more $220 Griego-Alessis. (The 5ABL was $29.95). I can't recall which of the 5AL and 5BL was intended for the 88H and which was intended for the 42B. Anyone?

On a bit of an English thing these days. Saw Darkest Hour on the holidays. Odd film. Helpful to know a bit of British history and be a little bit familiar with the parliamentary system. Good performance from G Oldman - didn't he play Sid Vicious early in his career? - but I recall seeing Rob't Hardy in same role in a tv series years ago. Am reading the Guardian more these days. There's only so much Trump one can take.
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BGuttman
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« Reply #6 on: Jan 12, 2018, 02:51PM »

The 4AL was Denis Wick's choice for his 88H.  I found the 4AL to be an air hog, so I play a 4BL.  Back then they didn't have AB's or half sizes; maybe a 4.5 ABL would be better for me Don't know  I'm not changing now.  A 4BL on large bore and a 4BS on small bore.  Works for me. Good!
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« Reply #7 on: Jan 12, 2018, 03:30PM »

I think the AL was for Conn and the BL for Bach.

Denis has been writing essays on facebook, and I think one of them was about the beginning of the development of the mouthpiece line.
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« Reply #8 on: Jan 12, 2018, 03:39PM »

The 4AL was Denis Wick's choice for his 88H.  I found the 4AL to be an air hog, so I play a 4BL.  Back then they didn't have AB's or half sizes; maybe a 4.5 ABL would be better for me Don't know  I'm not changing now.  A 4BL on large bore and a 4BS on small bore.  Works for me. Good!

Denis always used an 8H, never an 88H..... he used a 42B for a bit but never liked the valve.... he could honk out the valve notes as fakes on an 8H no problem.
The 4AL was the original. Everything else followed on.

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #9 on: Jan 12, 2018, 11:09PM »

Any professionals use Wick bass mouthpieces?
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« Reply #10 on: Jan 13, 2018, 12:25AM »

Any professionals use Wick bass mouthpieces?

Many do, as has been said 4 AL. Was the original, then Denis designed the 4bl. For the 42 to brighten the sound, and towards the end of his playing career he switched to the 5 AL.

The 5abl was if memory serves designed for Hellen Vollum  she studied with Denis from about age 12 or so.
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« Reply #11 on: Jan 13, 2018, 12:59AM »

Thanks,  but I mean 2AL, 1AL, 0AL, 00AL.
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« Reply #12 on: Jan 14, 2018, 01:14AM »

All the Maniacal 4 trombonists use Wick mouthpieces and mutes. Matt Jefferson is the bass trombone.
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« Reply #13 on: Jan 14, 2018, 01:38AM »

Denis always used an 8H, never an 88H..... he used a 42B for a bit but never liked the valve.... he could honk out the valve notes as fakes on an 8H no problem.
The 4AL was the original. Everything else followed on.

Chris Stearn
Denis sound on the fakes tones was just as good or better then valved tones.
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« Reply #14 on: Jan 14, 2018, 03:19AM »

Denis sound on the fakes tones was just as good or better then valved tones.


Is there a recording somewhere where you can hear him do this? I would love to hear it for myself. I have never heard anyone play false tones that convinced me they were better or equal to using the valve. 
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« Reply #15 on: Jan 14, 2018, 05:20AM »

Is there a recording somewhere where you can hear him do this? I would love to hear it for myself. I have never heard anyone play false tones that convinced me they were better or equal to using the valve. 

Many years ago I had a masterclass with Denis Wick. I played Lebedev for him. He told me to make my trigger notes better and he played some of the Lebedev for me. His trigger notes sounded nice and open. When I finish the masterclass my regular teacher told me to look at the trombone Denis was playing. It was first then I noticed his trombone was a straight horn, no trigger. I was in shock!! I was young and couldn't believe it, but his false notes was outstanding! I never forget that moment.

Leif
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« Reply #16 on: Jan 14, 2018, 05:43AM »

Any professionals use Wick bass mouthpieces?

To answer the question.... NO.

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #17 on: Jan 14, 2018, 07:06AM »

Many years ago I had a masterclass with Denis Wick. I played Lebedev for him. He told me to make my trigger notes better and he played some of the Lebedev for me. His trigger notes sounded nice and open. When I finish the masterclass my regular teacher told me to look at the trombone Denis was playing. It was first then I noticed his trombone was a straight horn, no trigger. I was in shock!! I was young and couldn't believe it, but his false notes was outstanding! I never forget that moment.

Leif

Fantastic! I would love to hear that myself. The only person I have ever heard live who I thought nearly convinced me with their false notes was Harkan Bjorkman. But even then, im not totally sure I wouldn't have been able to tell the difference. I am looking forward to the day that I am fooled.
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« Reply #18 on: Jan 14, 2018, 08:51AM »

In 2000 I caught a masterclass with Alain Trudel playing a 6 1/2AL sized Trudel mouthpiece, on a prototype Yamaha .547 with a piston valved F attachment. The valve kept failing and sticking open or closed half way.

Eventually Trudel gave up on the valve and just played everything on the straight horn. His low register warm up was almost all of the bitchy Richard Strauss bass bone orchestral excerpts..played on the straight horn, including low BB.

No difference in tone quality between open and trigger notes-- when the valve did work on occasion.
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« Reply #19 on: Jan 14, 2018, 01:39PM »

Is there a recording somewhere where you can hear him do this? I would love to hear it for myself. I have never heard anyone play false tones that convinced me they were better or equal to using the valve. 

Yes, I can understand it could be hard to believe if never experienced, but once you have heard live as described by Leif you will be convinced...

... or you will still doubt they can be used instead of trigger notes.

If you've been around professionals who can show them to you it is easier to belive. Unfortunately the fake notes is beginning to be a lost art. Certainly it must be jiddisch to most amateur musicians. Young pros also often neglect this art. It's understandable. I don't even think they teach these things at college anymore. They did in Stockholm in the 80-ies. Today I know aspiring pro bass trombone players who don't know how to do them properly. They may use them for practice but have apparently no use for them. Why? Maybe they do not do them right?

I thought it was impossible FOR ME to do fakes tones with a good sound until I learned. What makes them preferrable on a single is both C and B are in the middle of the slide + they are in tune.
Very fast runs can be easier because you do not need to be far out on the slide. Fake notes are a help as well as E/bE-tuning and two valves. You use what you think helps the situating best. Fake notes is another tool in the box. I use all of it where it helps me.

I have some videos on my page in the signature where I show how I practice fake tones. I think they have a place in music and my fake notes are not just for practice.

/Tom
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