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The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentInstruments(Moderators: tbone62, Greg Waits) New Wessex PBF565 bass trombone
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Author Topic: New Wessex PBF565 bass trombone  (Read 4278 times)
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Eyedoc
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« Reply #20 on: Jan 16, 2018, 11:41PM »

Can anyone offer examples to listen to of modern American bass sound versus classic bass sound? Preferably YouTube.
I am needing to define my sound concept. I bet the community band and the big Band I play my Duo Gravis in would prefer a classic sound. Thank you.
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« Reply #21 on: Jan 17, 2018, 01:51AM »

Not a dumb question at all. Modern American style.... think Edwards, Shires , Yeo designed Yamahas.... trombones that work well with big mouthpieces (though they can work with smaller) and produce a very big, projecting sound. The classic bass is more the old Conn and Holton style .... often happier with the smaller mouthpieces, able to cut through when required.
That's a start. Others may chime in.

Chris Stearn

IMO the problem with the "modern" B/Tbn set-up is one of musical context, and it's similar to an often discussed topic, which is, how welcome is a .547 tenor horn amongst .500's in a big band section?

I don't often play in BB's that often but my recent experience has been that there's a big disconnect between the B/Tbn an the tenors. Almost as though the bass isn't carrying its weight in the mid range, noticeably when playing unison octaves. These are good musicians, one has a good career in a service band and the other is a respected regional player, ie, he gets the good gigs..

From a practical point of view, if I were to book a Tbn section and couldn't find a bass tbn who had a "vintage" horn mentality, I'd rather have a good .547 tenor with a large m/p who understands the required tonal concept.

 

Carry on..   Evil
« Last Edit: Jan 17, 2018, 06:39AM by Pre59 » Logged

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BGuttman
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« Reply #22 on: Jan 17, 2018, 10:21AM »

Can anyone offer examples to listen to of modern American bass sound versus classic bass sound? Preferably YouTube.
I am needing to define my sound concept. I bet the community band and the big Band I play my Duo Gravis in would prefer a classic sound. Thank you.

First off, a Community Band really doesn't care.  As long as you can play the part they won't differentiate between a "classic" bass and a "modern" bass.

Big Bands, especially non-professional ones, generally are very eclectic as well.  I play in a Shriner Big Band where the 3 upper voices are Bach 36B and Bach 42B trombones (the 36B is on 3rd) and I play a King 7B (is that modern or classic?). 

I see similar problems in many quintets, where the BBb monster tuba is just too big to balance the rest of the group.  It sounds like 4 voices and this tuba.  A smaller tuba tends to blend better.  I played an F and it was a really good fit.  For that matter, a bass trombone on the bottom sometimes works well.
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Pre59

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« Reply #23 on: Jan 17, 2018, 12:24PM »

IMO the problem with the "modern" B/Tbn set-up is one of musical context, and it's similar to an often discussed topic, which is, how welcome is a .547 tenor horn amongst .500's in a big band section?

I don't often play in BB's that often but my recent experience has been that there's a big disconnect between the B/Tbn an the tenors. Almost as though the bass isn't carrying its weight in the mid range, noticeably when playing unison octaves. These are good musicians, one has a good career in a service band and the other is a respected regional player, ie, he gets the good gigs..

From a practical point of view, if I were to book a Tbn section and couldn't find a bass tbn who had a "vintage" horn mentality, I'd rather have a good .547 tenor with a large m/p who understands the required tonal concept.

 

Carry on..   Evil


Whilst out walking the dog, I remembered that a while back I subbed at a Sinatra tribute concert at a local theatre, and the 4th tbn DID play a George Roberts feature from one of the GR albums on an 88H.

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« Reply #24 on: Jan 17, 2018, 04:16PM »

Can anyone offer examples to listen to of modern American bass sound versus classic bass sound? Preferably YouTube.
I am needing to define my sound concept. I bet the community band and the big Band I play my Duo Gravis in would prefer a classic sound. Thank you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bvI3Uexm9c
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« Reply #25 on: Jan 17, 2018, 04:51PM »


Is this "old school"? = better suited to a smaller mouthpiece?
(Smaller? Brighter? Crunchier?)

Do you have a similarly-arranged link to a "modern" bass trombone sound/feature, for comparison?

(Thanks for this link!... once I figure out what I'm listening to  :) )
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« Reply #26 on: Jan 18, 2018, 12:20AM »

Is this "old school"? = better suited to a smaller mouthpiece?
(Smaller? Brighter? Crunchier?)

Do you have a similarly-arranged link to a "modern" bass trombone sound/feature, for comparison?

(Thanks for this link!... once I figure out what I'm listening to  :) )

That should be Tony Studd... he did most of their recordings.
I don't look at that as brighter or smaller... I look at that sound as interesting and rich. I consider many modern sounds as dull and diffuse... but that is often more due to the mouthpiece and the mindset than the instrument. Just my biased UK take on it.

Chris Stearn
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Pre59

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« Reply #27 on: Jan 18, 2018, 02:19AM »

On this recording  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bvI3Uexm9c  TS sounds like hes playing out and from a distance.

On this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3PFX8aCvj8 hes up close and on the mic.

https://www.discogs.com/Kai-Windings-Trombones-And-Orchestra-And-Orchestra-Kai-Ol/release/8430632

I owned this album in the 70s and bought it during a long tour of the US, have just grabbed it again on Amazon. Oh Joy!!
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« Reply #28 on: Jan 18, 2018, 04:39AM »

That should be Tony Studd... he did most of their recordings.
I don't look at that as brighter or smaller... I look at that sound as interesting and rich. I consider many modern sounds as dull and diffuse... but that is often more due to the mouthpiece and the mindset than the instrument. Just my biased UK take on it.

Chris Stearn

This reminds me of speaker discussions back when that sort of thing was more popular.  Some folks kept trying to insist they got more bass from their 8" woofers than others got from 15" woofers.  In reality, the 8" was physically incapable of providing more bass. Instead, it punched up an octave above.  The first group was mistaking the "punch" in that octave for greater bass.  Even at lower sound pressure levels where the 8" COULD match the 15" for power in the lower octave, the added punch an octave up made them identify the smaller unit as louder.

IMHO the sad reality is that many modern sounds are lacking the overtones that make  the "older" sound seem "bright" to them.  And IMHO color (or colour) and richness are EXACTLY what is missing in the more modern sound.  Along with that I hear a reluctance to articulate the beginnings of notes, unless the notes are extremely fast, in which case there is no tone, but just articulation.

All venting aside, is there any hope that this more "modern" Wessex can produce a "modern" sound that retains at least a little interest?

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« Reply #29 on: Jan 18, 2018, 05:32AM »

Actually it is Paul Faulise on the recording I posted. Dick Hixon did the earlier Elgart recordings-Paul the later. Paul told me this directly-
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« Reply #30 on: Jan 18, 2018, 05:53AM »

Actually it is Paul Faulise on the recording I posted. Dick Hixon did the earlier Elgart recordings-Paul the later. Paul told me this directly-

http://www.trombone-usa.com/faulise_paul_bio.htm
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« Reply #31 on: Jan 18, 2018, 06:13AM »

That should be Tony Studd... he did most of their recordings.
I don't look at that as brighter or smaller... I look at that sound as interesting and rich. I consider many modern sounds as dull and diffuse... but that is often more due to the mouthpiece and the mindset than the instrument. Just my biased UK take on it.

Chris Stearn


Not meaning to hijack the thread (I find this particular topic of trombone sounds interesting whenever it comes up), when you say you find a lot of modern sounds dull and diffuse, are you talking about Professional players, Ameteur/students or both? You of course dont need to name anyone specifically, but I am curious as to what kind of players are being included in that description.
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« Reply #32 on: Jan 18, 2018, 06:21AM »


Not meaning to hijack the thread (I find this particular topic of trombone sounds interesting whenever it comes up), when you say you find a lot of modern sounds dull and diffuse, are you talking about Professional players, Ameteur/students or both? You of course dont need to name anyone specifically, but I am curious as to what kind of players are being included in that description.

Asking a question is not hijacking the thread. Remember that statements made about individual sounds are based on perspective. The sound each person has in their head is what's used to make a statement like that. I know several professional bass trombonists that have achieved great success who have, to my ears, the sound that Chris is speaking of. Depending on who you've listened to and aspired to be will affect the sound that you achieve and desire. Right or wrong? Not really. Preference.
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« Reply #33 on: Jan 18, 2018, 09:17AM »

Actually it is Paul Faulise on the recording I posted. Dick Hixon did the earlier Elgart recordings-Paul the later. Paul told me this directly-

Ohhh !!!  My bad.... I should check more carefully. Great playing, whoever it is.

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #34 on: Jan 18, 2018, 08:17PM »

Thanks for the responses.
Sorry to keep resurrecting this-- still struggling.


@Pre59 -
Thank you for the links. That's a neat comparison of a single player close-mic'ed vs. not, and I feel more educated for having heard it.
Is that the difference between an "old-school" sound and a "modern" sound?
Or is the far-from-mic version really bringing out the horn's crunchy overtones, while the close-mic version...?


If not (or even if so, just for another point of comparison!), is there a[nother] "modern American" bass trombone sound clip anywhere on YouTube that we can hear?
Or names/albums of old-school players vs. modern players I could look into?


...Depending on who you've listened to and aspired to be will affect the sound that you achieve and desire. Right or wrong? Not really. Preference.

...is this still about "old-school" vs. "modern" equipment, or old-school vs. modern approach?
Or are you including equipment as an integral part of a bass trombonist's approach?
(Seems to me it'd just be a "right tool for the job" kind of thing...?)
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« Reply #35 on: Jan 19, 2018, 01:17AM »

This different school idea will be seen as quite subtle by most people. With professionals it is an issue that they sometimes discuss, though most are too busy to bother and just play the way they do.
It is easy to settle on commercial playing to represent the classic approach but there are orchestral and ensemble examples out there. Listen to Ray Premru with the PJBE. Bob Hughes with the RSNO,PO and LSO. That style is still the main approach in the UK.
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« Reply #36 on: Jan 19, 2018, 04:26AM »

This different school idea will be seen as quite subtle by most people. With professionals it is an issue that they sometimes discuss, though most are too busy to bother and just play the way they do.
It is easy to settle on commercial playing to represent the classic approach but there are orchestral and ensemble examples out there. Listen to Ray Premru with the PJBE. Bob Hughes with the RSNO,PO and LSO. That style is still the main approach in the UK.

Bob Hughes playing on the Alpine Symphony shows the sound that is possible on a 2g
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« Reply #37 on: Jan 19, 2018, 07:01AM »



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCZzxhM0YLw

Here's a nice Manny Albam arrangement with Tony Studd coming in around 1:00, and a nice feature at the end.  All with a single trigger 72H, right?  He sounds great.  There's a whole world in his sound.  Popping without blowing the roof off. 
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« Reply #38 on: Jan 19, 2018, 07:49AM »

Ok, I'll be the a-hole who asks - can you give a link to a more "modern" sound?

I know at festivals I grate at the tbone choir bass bones just seeing how loud they can play whole notes on the fundamental. But that's a maturity issue, not a hardware problem. I just need to hear two different sounds for comparison sake. I don't want to label anyone as a "bad" player or tasteless or anything, I just want to see what the two supposed bookends of the spectrum are.
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« Reply #39 on: Jan 19, 2018, 08:01AM »


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCZzxhM0YLw

Here's a nice Manny Albam arrangement with Tony Studd coming in around 1:00, and a nice feature at the end.  All with a single trigger 72H, right?  He sounds great.  There's a whole world in his sound.  Popping without blowing the roof off. 


I have owned this album since 1968!  This is, by far, one of the most definitive bass trombone sounds ever in commercial music!  Tony Studd is right there ini the pantheon with George Roberts, Dick Lieb, Dick Hixon, and Paul Falise.  When I play commercial bass trombone this IS the sound I try to emulate!!

Bravo on this find!!
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