Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1096404 Posts in 72513 Topics- by 19533 Members - Latest Member: marymsmith
Jump to:  
Pages: [1]   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Braces or Invisalign?  (Read 722 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
peteriley
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Aug 26, 2016
Posts: 93

View Profile
« on: Jan 17, 2018, 12:47PM »

My 11-year old son, who's a trumpet player needs to have teeth work. He's only been playing for 6 months, so it's a good time. From reading online, I suspect that Invislign is the best option if he wants to keep playing/practicing?

I also need to get long-needed dental work. For me though, my lower teeth are so crooked that when they're straightened out they would be wider than the uppers. The uppers aren't too bad, but they would need to be spread out to accommodate the lowers. It seems like braces on top and bottom would do the job properly. I'd have to keep them on for 8 months. Or, they could trim down the sides of some of the lower teeth and do the invisalign just on them. Cost wise, it's still the price of a new boat for the dentist.

So my question to anyone who's gone through this, or a trombone-dentist (please forgive previous comment about dentists): Can I still practice and play gigs with braces, or would that be much more difficult? In which case, the Invisalign would be better?

Thanks in advance.
Logged
Doug Elliott
Lord of the Rims

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: Mar 12, 2005
Posts: 6854

View Profile
« Reply #1 on: Jan 17, 2018, 01:56PM »

I had a student who did invisalign, but then switched to braces because it was taking too long.  There's a significant time difference and I suspect Invisalign is less predictable as to how long it's going to take.

" ...trim down the sides of some of the lower teeth"
Sounds like an incredibly bad idea to me.  I think it's fairly normal to pull one on each side to make room to spread the others out.  But I'm no dentist.  Hopefully RonkNY will post, he is a dentist.
Logged

www.DougElliottMouthpieces.com
XT LexanN104,C+,D2, Williams 6, K&H Slokar alto, K&H Slokar Solo .547 open wrap
Quiros

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Alabama
Joined: Feb 16, 2016
Posts: 114

View Profile
« Reply #2 on: Jan 17, 2018, 02:20PM »

I can't recommend one way or the other, but I can share my experience with braces to give you an idea what to expect.

I had braces on both rows of teeth for about two years in high school. Initially, the pain while playing was unbearable, and my tone and range greatly suffered. My orthodontist recommended using dental wax, but it didn't help much and was too much trouble to keep applying. I decided to suck it up and play raw, without the wax. Gradually, the pain diminished until it no longer hurt at all, and I got back to my pre-brace playing ability. I think the scar tissue on the inside of my mouth thickened over time, and that reduced the pain. This process took about a month.

When I had my braces removed, it took me another couple of weeks to readjust my embouchure. I don't think my trombone development was hindered by getting braces, but it does require time and persistence to get used to them.
Logged

I just enjoy playing!
M&W 929 dependent bass
King 3BF Silversonic
B&H Imperial E-flat tuba
Le.Tromboniste
*
Offline Offline

Location: Basel, Switzerland
Joined: Aug 5, 2008
Posts: 445

View Profile
« Reply #3 on: Jan 17, 2018, 04:04PM »

I got braces halfway through my second year of playing, and they were removed them three years later, halfway through my final year of High School.

The adaptation when getting them took a few weeks, but was no big deal. That being said I had not been playing that long when I got them - so I wouldnt know how hard it is to adapt to them for a long time player.

I did most of my early learning and first years of practicing intensively with braces. It did teach me to play without pressure (only way to not cut your lips)l. I got pretty good. Problem is they were removed two or three months before my auditions for what we have between High School and college back home, and a few days before a concert. I needed to be able to play the parts and solo pieces I had been able to play just days before, so I did what I had to do, and took up many bad habits in the process. Most importantly I started using a lot of pressure to get the high range I otherwise had lost. Took me years to get rid of these bad habits I got from those few months and to really properly regain the range I had before. So keep that in mind as you do the transition to or from braces.

I would say apart from that, in my experience the big difference with the braces on was consistency. My good days were just as good as they later came back to be, but the next day could be complete crap in comparison. I could never tell before starting to play how it would feel and sound on any given day. Probably because of everything moving around in my mouth (especially when I had the palate expansion device as well).   
Logged

Maximilien Brisson
kbiggs

*
Offline Offline

Location: Vancouver WA
Joined: Jun 9, 2006
Posts: 1402

View Profile
« Reply #4 on: Jan 17, 2018, 06:19PM »

My story with braces FWIW...

I had regular braces when I was 14-15 years old. At that time, they pulled four teeth: 2 uppers and 2 lowers, one on each side. I believe they were molars, maybe pre-molars. (Funny story: the dentist who pulled my teeth accidentally dislocated my jaw! “Oh, you can’t bite down on the gauze? Here, let me fix that.” Clunk! No problems ever.) I had the same problems with braces already mentioned: tough to get used to the braces when they first go on, tough to get used to them when they come off.

About 12 years ago, I went through a course of Invisalign braces because some of the teeth had shifted. Invisalign was definitely the way to go, as I was playing a lot. I could eat and play like normal, and the shifting was done while at my day job and asleep at night. Yes, it took longer and cost more, but it was worth it. They do some proximal reduction, or very slight grinding down between teeth that have very little room between them. Only where they need to, I guess...

Now that I’m in my mid-50’s, the standard braces are again having their revenge: some gum recession made much worse by an enlarged space between the teeth where the molars were removed. I basically have twice the amont of bone between my back two molars because of an empty socket that was filled in by bringing the teeth closer together. From what I was told, orthodontists used to pull teeth to make room to move the existing teeth. Now, they prefer to leave them in and move teeth around or further back in the jaw whenever possible.

***

From the consumer’s perspective: Yes, I’d choose Invisalign, IF your son’s a good candidate. Ask a lot of questions: how much proximal reduction will he need? What’s a time and cost comparison to regular braces? Is Invisalign covered under your dental plan?
Logged

Kenneth Biggs
Bass & tenor trombone
_______________
“I have known a great many troubles, but most of them never happened.”
  -- Mark Twain
peteriley
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Aug 26, 2016
Posts: 93

View Profile
« Reply #5 on: Jan 19, 2018, 07:23PM »

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the info and suggestions. I'll fold these comments into what I hear from the orthodontist.
Logged
robcat2075

*
Offline Offline

Location: Dallas, Texas
Joined: Apr 19, 2009
Posts: 6737

View Profile
« Reply #6 on: Jan 19, 2018, 09:27PM »

i hope you'll post some updates about how it all progresses.
Logged

Robert Holmén

Hear me as I Play My Horn


Get your Popper, Dotzauer, or Kummer play-alongs!
peteriley
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Aug 26, 2016
Posts: 93

View Profile
« Reply #7 on: Jan 21, 2018, 06:52AM »

i hope you'll post some updates about how it all progresses.

Absolutely. Pictures too?  :)
Logged
peteriley
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Aug 26, 2016
Posts: 93

View Profile
« Reply #8 on: Feb 13, 2018, 03:34PM »

For anyone interested in a followup, after discussing the options with the orthodontist (and of course my trombone buddies here!) I went for the Invisalign option. It'll cost a little over $5k (and that's with a contribution from my insurance) when all's said and done but should give me a straight row of bottom (and top) teeth.  I got scanned with a very cool instrument, which built up a 3-D picture of my teeth. From that, they make a series of plastic molds that I wear, each for 2 weeks. Total length of treatment is 8-12 months, if I adhere to the wearing requirement of 20-22 hours per day.

The orthodontist put them in yesterday. Here's a tip that should have been obvious: Don't start wearing them on the day you have a big band gig! I thought at first I might be able to just play with them in, or, at worst,  I could just pull them out at the sound check to let my mouth feel normal again. But it didn't work out that well. I was playing the bass (4th) part, and everything between middle F (on 4th line)  to B (2nd line) came out as a double buzz if I played louder than mp. Lower notes were fine as were relatively higher ones.

Today, things are a bit better. Here are a few observations from practicing with the invisalign in:

1. Air is  escaping through top of them (in the past, I think some air might have passed through the gaps between the teeth, but now the only gap is right near the top, and I can feel it.

2. Tonguing is difficult because of "bite" tabs on the inside of the upper insert. Worst for F and lower because my tongue drops. The presence of the tabs is going to be a big impediment I think. It also makes me lisp when I speak. 

3. Lip slurs are tough...really tough, but this could be a sliverlining. If I put NO pressure, it's OK. In fact, I can even slur across intervals that gave me problems (like low Bb to Eb) in the past. My teacher was right about the pressure!

4. Range suffers - I lost at least 4 semitones overnight. This is true whether lip buzzing, MP buzzing, or playing on the instrument. Low range OK though.

5. Double buzzing in 2nd partial F down to B, esp. coming up from below. Since I worked hard when I first returned to playing to nix this, it's something I'll have to re-fix.

6. The edges of the inserts are digging in, particularly at the front. May need to get filed down for next set by the orthodontist. Even 30 minutes playing was enough to feel a bit of discomfort.

7. Jaw out a bit more from the location of the tabs - could be good thing though depending on your school of thought.

8. Embouchure setting feels like I'm using more muscles even for middle range. Could be because the muscles are stretched a bit more over the inserts.

Overall, wasn't expecting change to be so drastic, but also might be gift in disguise, allowing me to address deficiencies that I'd learn to work around. I don't think there are any "showstoppers" although articulation against the tabs on the upper insert are already making my tongue tender.

I'll follow up again in a month or two to document my progress.

Logged
robcat2075

*
Offline Offline

Location: Dallas, Texas
Joined: Apr 19, 2009
Posts: 6737

View Profile
« Reply #9 on: Feb 13, 2018, 06:22PM »

I presumed one would take the invisaligns out while playing.
Logged

Robert Holmén

Hear me as I Play My Horn


Get your Popper, Dotzauer, or Kummer play-alongs!
mr.deacon
*
Offline Offline

Location: California
Joined: Mar 16, 2011
Posts: 844

View Profile
« Reply #10 on: Feb 13, 2018, 06:26PM »

I presumed one would take the invisaligns out while playing.
Haha I was just going to mention that. Unless you are a pro, someone preparing for an audition, or a college student; I wouldn't expect anyone to be playing more then 4 hours a day. That leaves you plenty of time to take out the invisaligns when playing a gig or practicing.

Honestly I might have to get this proceder done when I'm older. I had braces when I was in highschool but I was bad about wearing the rubber bands during the day and the headgear at night (I had a old school orthodontist haha) because I felt it interfered with my playing. My teeth are a million times straighter but I can already tell they are slowly shifting  around.
Logged

Minick Custom Bass Trombone, 1980's, Doug Elliott LB
Conn 8H, 1950's, Doug Elliott XT
Kanstul 975 Euph 2007, 11" GB Bell, Doug Elliott XT
kbiggs

*
Offline Offline

Location: Vancouver WA
Joined: Jun 9, 2006
Posts: 1402

View Profile
« Reply #11 on: Feb 13, 2018, 08:51PM »

For anyone interested in a followup, after discussing the options with the orthodontist (and of course my trombone buddies here!) I went for the Invisalign option. It'll cost a little over $5k (and that's with a contribution from my insurance) when all's said and done but should give me a straight row of bottom (and top) teeth.  I got scanned with a very cool instrument, which built up a 3-D picture of my teeth. From that, they make a series of plastic molds that I wear, each for 2 weeks. Total length of treatment is 8-12 months, if I adhere to the wearing requirement of 20-22 hours per day.

The orthodontist put them in yesterday. Here's a tip that should have been obvious: Don't start wearing them on the day you have a big band gig! I thought at first I might be able to just play with them in, or, at worst,  I could just pull them out at the sound check to let my mouth feel normal again. But it didn't work out that well. I was playing the bass (4th) part, and everything between middle F (on 4th line)  to B (2nd line) came out as a double buzz if I played louder than mp. Lower notes were fine as were relatively higher ones.

Today, things are a bit better. Here are a few observations from practicing with the invisalign in:

1. Air is  escaping through top of them (in the past, I think some air might have passed through the gaps between the teeth, but now the only gap is right near the top, and I can feel it.

2. Tonguing is difficult because of "bite" tabs on the inside of the upper insert. Worst for F and lower because my tongue drops. The presence of the tabs is going to be a big impediment I think. It also makes me lisp when I speak. 

3. Lip slurs are tough...really tough, but this could be a sliverlining. If I put NO pressure, it's OK. In fact, I can even slur across intervals that gave me problems (like low Bb to Eb) in the past. My teacher was right about the pressure!

4. Range suffers - I lost at least 4 semitones overnight. This is true whether lip buzzing, MP buzzing, or playing on the instrument. Low range OK though.

5. Double buzzing in 2nd partial F down to B, esp. coming up from below. Since I worked hard when I first returned to playing to nix this, it's something I'll have to re-fix.

6. The edges of the inserts are digging in, particularly at the front. May need to get filed down for next set by the orthodontist. Even 30 minutes playing was enough to feel a bit of discomfort.

7. Jaw out a bit more from the location of the tabs - could be good thing though depending on your school of thought.

8. Embouchure setting feels like I'm using more muscles even for middle range. Could be because the muscles are stretched a bit more over the inserts.

Overall, wasn't expecting change to be so drastic, but also might be gift in disguise, allowing me to address deficiencies that I'd learn to work around. I don't think there are any "showstoppers" although articulation against the tabs on the upper insert are already making my tongue tender.

I'll follow up again in a month or two to document my progress.



Peter,

Take ‘em out when you play. Your embouchure will change gradually over time while your teeth move. But do yourself a favor—take ‘em out so you can play.
Logged

Kenneth Biggs
Bass & tenor trombone
_______________
“I have known a great many troubles, but most of them never happened.”
  -- Mark Twain
peteriley
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Aug 26, 2016
Posts: 93

View Profile
« Reply #12 on: Feb 14, 2018, 10:06AM »

Thanks guys....I came to that conclusion this morning as my upper gums were tenderizing. I'm not sure why I didn't think of it sooner too. Seems obvious. If I play with them in, I have to learn to play with them in, then re-learn to play with them out a year later. If I pop them out, I'll just have to get used to the different feeling around my lips with the reduced tension. Plus my embouchure and gradually evolve as the teeth are realigned. As for the time commitment - including a session of buzzing, I am trying to get 3x25 minute sessions per day plus band rehearsals, which is currently about 5 hours per week. So I can fit that in and still have enough time to eat...although I REALLY like to eat to keep above the 20 hour minimum. I'll keep you posted....
Logged
patrickosmith

*
Offline Offline

Location: Boston
Joined: Feb 7, 2014
Posts: 1026

View Profile
« Reply #13 on: Feb 14, 2018, 10:29AM »

I am currently on tray #33 of 40. I wear each tray for 2 weeks.

You are supposed to wear them 22 hours a day. It is difficult enough to achieve the 22-hour-a-day goal even without my trombone playing, rehearsals and gigues. Why pay $6K and then promptly guarantee failure by not complying with the rules? My teeth had been moving slowly over the course of 10 to 20 years and were becoming progressively more crooked. So my goal in doing InvisAlign was to straighten them and achieve a final, stable, permanent configuration.

Anyway, I've been playing with the InvisAlign trays on my teeth for about 17 months now. Playing with the trays on is a little bit like playing after you've had novacaine to numb your teeth. The contact between embouchure and mouthpiece is a little less direct.
 
Anyway, I've been learning a lot about playing with this handicap and I hope it will increase my ability to improve and teach when they are finally off.

Since I am nearing the home stretch (another 4 to 6 months to go), I intend to gradually play more and more each day with them off. This should help my transition back.

Logged
peteriley
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Aug 26, 2016
Posts: 93

View Profile
« Reply #14 on: Feb 14, 2018, 12:39PM »

Hi Patrick,

Interesting take. You're a lot further into the process than I am. Do you play as well now with them on as you did before you started the process? Can you play as well when you take them out, or is it strange? I could guess that if I only use them 20 hours a day instead of 22, then it'll take about 10% longer to get to the same point, which is about a month. But I'm guessing that the 2-week requirement for each set is probably conservative in that some people will not adhere to the 22 hours and other people's teeth won't respond as well to the treatment.

I'll just rob some of the time I would have used for eating to play trombone. Then I'll truly be a starving musician.

Pete
Logged
robcat2075

*
Offline Offline

Location: Dallas, Texas
Joined: Apr 19, 2009
Posts: 6737

View Profile
« Reply #15 on: Feb 14, 2018, 01:31PM »


I'll just rob some of the time I would have used for eating to play trombone. Then I'll truly be a starving musician.


Get a blender.  Liquid diet. Won't even need teeth.
Logged

Robert Holmén

Hear me as I Play My Horn


Get your Popper, Dotzauer, or Kummer play-alongs!
patrickosmith

*
Offline Offline

Location: Boston
Joined: Feb 7, 2014
Posts: 1026

View Profile
« Reply #16 on: Feb 15, 2018, 05:08AM »

Hi Patrick,

Interesting take. You're a lot further into the process than I am. Do you play as well now with them on as you did before you started the process? Can you play as well when you take them out, or is it strange? I could guess that if I only use them 20 hours a day instead of 22, then it'll take about 10% longer to get to the same point, which is about a month. But I'm guessing that the 2-week requirement for each set is probably conservative in that some people will not adhere to the 22 hours and other people's teeth won't respond as well to the treatment.

I'll just rob some of the time I would have used for eating to play trombone. Then I'll truly be a starving musician.

Pete

It is really tough to do 22 hours a day. I was probably doing 20 hours a day. I was responding well to treatment and my dentist suggested at about tray 20 that I might try quickening the pace to 1 tray per week. I chose to keep the 2 weeks per tray and I've honestly slacked off to about 18 to 20 hours a day. Most of the small adjustments are done (left, right, twisting) and my front teeth are now straight, however, I have a cross bite --the top row of teeth were inside rather than outside the bottom row-- that is the long pole in the tent.

As far as my playing, it definitely took a nose dive for a while (a good 6 months) and my upper range is still a bit worse. Rather than fret over it, I have enjoyed the challenges of learning to overcome range, sound, and articulation issues. I have focused on removing the unnecessary tension in my throat and upper chest. These were issues that were there before InvisAlign but now with the additional obstacles due to InvisAlign it is even more apparent that they hinder my playing. So I'd say right now I am ahead of where I was when I started.

I haven't spent that much time playing without the braces. At this point it would be a step back again to play without them. I am hoping that my transition to playing without them will be a bit quicker that the transition to play with them.
Logged
peteriley
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Aug 26, 2016
Posts: 93

View Profile
« Reply #17 on: Feb 15, 2018, 10:34AM »

Get a blender.  Liquid diet. Won't even need teeth.

But will I play the trombone better Doc?
Logged
peteriley
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Aug 26, 2016
Posts: 93

View Profile
« Reply #18 on: Feb 15, 2018, 10:36AM »

I haven't spent that much time playing without the braces. At this point it would be a step back again to play without them. I am hoping that my transition to playing without them will be a bit quicker that the transition to play with them.

I think I'll go the other way, and just play w/o them. It felt much better even just buzzing this morning without them in. This way, I won't have the double transitions that you've had. If I have to play less, that might be OK too. There's lots of other ways I can be improving my musicality.
Logged
robcat2075

*
Offline Offline

Location: Dallas, Texas
Joined: Apr 19, 2009
Posts: 6737

View Profile
« Reply #19 on: Feb 15, 2018, 12:37PM »

Aside from a dentist's desire to get done with a patient ASAP, is there any reason you couldn't wear each form for 2 weeks + one day and get more non-form hours available in a day?

Logged

Robert Holmén

Hear me as I Play My Horn


Get your Popper, Dotzauer, or Kummer play-alongs!
Pages: [1]   Go Up
Print
Jump to: