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The Trombone ForumTeaching & LearningPedagogy(Moderators: JP, Doug Elliott) Learning as B-flat on G clef, C on F clef
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Sandaun
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« on: Feb 02, 2018, 01:21AM »

Or learning the trombone as both a B flat instrument and a C instrument.

I managed it quite by accident. My tutor was a brass bander, and he taught me the b flat transposition on the treble/G clef. Under the impression that a little extra wouldn't go amiss, I bought myself the New Tune A Day Trombone book and simultaneously worked my way through that. It is a bass/F clef book.

So without putting any great effort into it, I found myself reading both the B flat transposition and the bass/F clef.

I can guess some tutors would not approve.

But what I'd like to know is, has anyone else learnt to read both? (The benefits for me are that I can pick up a clarinet or sax score and read it; alternatively a cello or bassoon score and read it.) If so, what were your methods, your work-arounds, your gotchas, etc?
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SilverBone
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« Reply #1 on: Feb 02, 2018, 01:34AM »

Yes, when I was a teenager learning trombone, the Tijuana Brass were very big.  There were Tijuana Brass songbooks for brass groups, but the trumpets got all the melody.

I was determined not to let that stop me.
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-Howard

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« Reply #2 on: Feb 02, 2018, 01:49AM »

Started in Primary 6 reading treble clef as Bb transposing.  Switched to bass clef when I went to secondary school.  Starting on treble did help with tenor clef parts !!

Ronnie
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BGuttman
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« Reply #3 on: Feb 02, 2018, 02:48AM »

I went the other way.  Learned tenor clef in High School and figured out that it let me read the trumpet and tenor sax parts.  I read transposed treble as tenor clef.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #4 on: Feb 02, 2018, 01:49PM »

I started on Bass Clef when in Highschool. When I joined the local Brass Band the only position I could play was Bass Trombone The 1st and 2nd Trom parts were always written in Treble Clef.
I later learnt how to read Treble Clef, and eventually Tenor Clef for the few times it comes up.
3 of the 5 trom players in our band can read both Bass and Treble, as well as muck around with Tenor Clef. It's gobbledigook for the other members of our section!
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Bimmerman
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« Reply #5 on: Feb 02, 2018, 02:14PM »

I went the other way.  Learned tenor clef in High School and figured out that it let me read the trumpet and tenor sax parts.  I read transposed treble as tenor clef.

This was my experience as well.

Reading Bb treble as tenor clef has been far more useful to know than C treble, if I'm honest. I learned C treble through jazz combo since our director made us all work from the C real book, but haven't used it nearly as much as Bb Treble/Tenor transposition.
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BGuttman
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« Reply #6 on: Feb 02, 2018, 03:07PM »

This was my experience as well.

Reading Bb treble as tenor clef has been far more useful to know than C treble, if I'm honest. I learned C treble through jazz combo since our director made us all work from the C real book, but haven't used it nearly as much as Bb Treble/Tenor transposition.

My limitation is that I can't improvise over chords in Bb treble (or Eb treble).  I need to use the C chords.  Other than that, I can play Bb treble parts reading as tenor.  I sat next to a Euph player who couldn't read Bb treble.  We'd switch parts when he encountered a Bb part -- he'd play my trombone part and I'd play his Euph part. Good!
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #7 on: Feb 02, 2018, 03:19PM »

My limitation is that I can't improvise over chords in Bb treble (or Eb treble).  I need to use the C chords.  Other than that, I can play Bb treble parts reading as tenor.  I sat next to a Euph player who couldn't read Bb treble.  We'd switch parts when he encountered a Bb part -- he'd play my trombone part and I'd play his Euph part. Good!

Ha, yea. I find it easier to improvise with Bb treble, because I know I can't read the chords so I have to go by ear instead. With C parts I fool myself into thinking if I read the chords I'll do better...but it always sounds worse when I try to read and think through the chorus.
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Radar

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« Reply #8 on: Feb 03, 2018, 11:57AM »

After I learned Bass Clef euphonium in school, I went into a junior drum and bugle corp and their music was all written as if you were playing Bb trumpet fingerings in Treble clef (all the horns were actually in G at the time).  So yes I can read both now, and it has helped me easily pick up CC tuba since the fingerings are the same as Treble clef Euphonium (but in Bass clef).
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Doghouse Dan

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« Reply #9 on: Feb 03, 2018, 05:55PM »

After I learned Bass Clef euphonium in school, I went into a junior drum and bugle corp and their music was all written as if you were playing Bb trumpet fingerings in Treble clef (all the horns were actually in G at the time).  So yes I can read both now, and it has helped me easily pick up CC tuba since the fingerings are the same as Treble clef Euphonium (but in Bass clef).


I don't understand. For CC tuba, my transposition trick is to read it as if it were alto clef. 
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Dan Walker
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« Reply #10 on: Feb 03, 2018, 11:21PM »

I know clefs are hard for some people. For me, it's just another technical issue.

I play with a number of friends in various ensembles, from trios with 2 bassoons to bone quartets and duets with many instruments. I have to regularly read tenor and bass clefs with most of these people. Alto clef slows me down but it doesn't stop me.

My neighbour is a serious guitarist (he owns a Stratocaster and a Gibson), and we finally got together to jam. He had some music, from BB King to Blood Sweat & Tears, and it involved me reading C treble clef. I could either do it, or not. We had some fun and we developed some understanding of each other's instrument.

Why would you let a little transposition practice hold you back from a new musical experience?


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Martin Hubel
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« Reply #11 on: Feb 04, 2018, 04:42AM »

I don't understand. For CC tuba, my transposition trick is to read it as if it were alto clef. 
When I play CC Tuba I'm not transposing, I just know the fingerings, because they are the same as Trumpet/Treble clef Euphonium:  C on trumpet/treble clef Euph. is an open note, just like it is on CC Tuba, B Natural is Second Valve, etc.  So the fingerings and note names for Trumpet and Treble clef Euphonium are the same as the note names and fingerings on CC Tuba.  The difference is Trumpet and Treble Clef Euphonium are written in Treble Clef, and CC tuba is in Bass Clef but the note names and fingerings are the same.
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Sandaun
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« Reply #12 on: Feb 07, 2018, 01:43AM »

When I play CC Tuba I'm not transposing, I just know the fingerings, because they are the same as Trumpet/Treble clef Euphonium:  C on trumpet/treble clef Euph. is an open note, just like it is on CC Tuba, B Natural is Second Valve, etc.  So the fingerings and note names for Trumpet and Treble clef Euphonium are the same as the note names and fingerings on CC Tuba.  The difference is Trumpet and Treble Clef Euphonium are written in Treble Clef, and CC tuba is in Bass Clef but the note names and fingerings are the same.
Which is how I manage on the trombone whether I'm playing with the brass band from the treble clef or playing Arban and trying to learn his phrasing pieces/studies for my own pleasure. In the treble clef, the bottom note in first position is middle C and the next one up is G second line, etc; when I'm reading Arban or so, the bottom note first position is B flat second line, and the next note up is F fourth line up, etc. Tenor clef can be a bit confusing, depending whether I'm reading it as a C clef or an approximation to the G clef B flat transposition. When I'm playing with the brass band, I usually transpose, because the tenor clef pieces are mixed in with the treble clef pieces and it's easier that way.

I had a play on an E flat tuba a while back. A friend in the brass band told me to read it as such-and-such a transposition, but I never saw any problem with reading it in the F clef. It helped having learnt the trumpet; most three-valve brass instruments in the English-speaking world finger the same way.
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