Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1096403 Posts in 72513 Topics- by 19533 Members - Latest Member: marymsmith
Jump to:  
The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentMouthpieces(Moderators: BGuttman, Doug Elliott) Bigger mouthpiece gives more volume?
Pages: [1]   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Bigger mouthpiece gives more volume?  (Read 831 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
savio

*
Offline Offline

Location: Norway
Joined: Aug 10, 2006
Posts: 5163

View Profile WWW
« on: Feb 09, 2018, 10:38AM »

Maybe this has been up before, but I talked to a jazz trumpeter some days ago and he told bigger mouthpieces gives more volume. Is that true?

Leif
Logged

Bass Trombone - Conn, Holton
Full Pedal Trombonist

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Jun 16, 2009
Posts: 3039

View Profile
« Reply #1 on: Feb 09, 2018, 11:26AM »

Only if the bigger mouthpiece is a better fit for both player and instrument.

For example I’m louder across the instrument with my big Doug Elliott mouthpiece than my 1-1/2G in my bass trombone. And even though I use a big rim for small tenor I bet the same size but deeper cup like a small shanked 3G would backup and be very difficult to play loud in my Olds Super.

Very generally more volume physically would mean the ability to make more volume sound-wise.
Logged

We don't just embrace insanity here, we feel it up, french kiss it and then buy it a drink.
Matt K

*
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 6, 2010
Posts: 7378

View Profile
« Reply #2 on: Feb 09, 2018, 11:41AM »

I find that a larger rim typically gives me a wider palatte of volume to pick from.  This includes the edges of both extremes (louds and softs). 
Logged

What's in a name? that which we call a tenor-bass posaune
By any other name would smell as sweet;
EWadie99
The Curious One

*
Offline Offline

Location: Sterling Heights, Michigan
Joined: Jan 22, 2016
Posts: 545
"Bass Trombone! It's like a musical bazooka!"


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: Feb 09, 2018, 11:51AM »

I would honestly say that it's one of those questions that will vary and can't really be simplified to one answer.  In my humble opinion, the biggest factor is how the horn will respond overall and how the player is approaching said horn.  Also if given to the right player, a bigger piece would be necessary if it's becoming a real struggle to use.

As for the horn goes, it will depend on the vintage or how it's built all together.  If the the horn will not accept a larger piece, maybe have a custom Doug Elliot piece or a piece that'll be like for example, a size Schilke 59 or 60 rim size with a MT. Vernon Bach 1.5G style cup (not sure if such piece exists but just some random example) or like a 3G or 2G rim with a 5G cup.  

Not sure if this is referring to rim size or cup size but just thought I would Give my $00.02 or how ever it's worth.
Logged

Ethan Wadie
Adlai E. Stevenson High School
Adlai E. Stevenson High School Jazz Ensemble
Adlai E. Stevenson High School Wind Ensemble
Bones:
Getzen 1062FD
davdud101
The Kid

*
Offline Offline

Location: Detroit, MI
Joined: Jun 20, 2014
Posts: 1134
"Put yourself in the shoes of the listener."


View Profile WWW
« Reply #4 on: Feb 09, 2018, 12:33PM »

From what I've experienced ... giving my OWN $00.02...

yeah, generally this seems to be the case, at least for ME in MY OWN playing. Or at the very least, a DEEPER mouthpiece plus MORE AIR can yield more volume.

But again, that's just ME and MY OWN playing. Others may experience differently, and Doug might come through and utterly crush my short analysis :D
Logged

Don't practice until you get it right.
Practice until you can't get it wrong.
blast

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: scotland
Joined: Jul 26, 2001
Posts: 7073
"Bass/Contrabass trombone, Scottish Opera."


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: Feb 09, 2018, 12:38PM »

Sorry, but this is not a helpful statement from the trumpeter. Basically untrue. Things are far more complex than that.

Chris Stearn
Logged

Still cannot think of anything better to do. Back on an old 1 1/2G again !
Matt K

*
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 6, 2010
Posts: 7378

View Profile
« Reply #6 on: Feb 09, 2018, 12:53PM »

/thread.

To expand on the idea of cup depth, which has been mentioned a couple of times... I have enough Elliott combinations to have tried both larger rims and smaller rims on shallow and deep cups.  I actually have an LB D on the way too... for practicing the rim size without holding up a bass with a horrible silent brass practice mute in it.

When I compare something such as an LB110 / LB J + / J8 to a EUPH 104N / K /K 8 (very similar depths but different rims) I find that the larger of the rims does give me more volume all around - if I'm in shape on it at least. It also seems to give me more colors, dynamically and timbrally. My flexibility is also more 'loose' on the larger of the rims. The range I have access to is not particularly dependent on either of these unless the gig is very long or I haven't played on one of the rim sizes in awhile. Endurance is better on the 104N if I'm doing tons of high stuff, but on low stuff the endurance is definitely easier on the 110.  Nothing particularly surprising by that observation.

Compare that to say, the Euph 104N / K / K 8 vs. an XT104N / E / E8.  (same rim, different cup depths) The E is way easier to play in every way for me, particularly on tenor, and particularly in the high range. The E provides a much more full sound in the upper range at the expense of some of the 'width' of my sound. However, that isn't necessarily volume.  When I'm in shape on both, the volume (dynamics at least) is definitely easier on the E cup - again, both louds and softs. 

I'm sure there is a point of diminishing returns.  I'll find out soon when I start practicing on an LB114/LB D! 

Bear in mind that I'm sure this does not apply universally or perhaps even generally.   Matt Niess puts out a ridiculous amount of volume on possibly the smallest equipment I personally know of someone playing.  But if you're like me, brightness and volume come quite naturally.  Good tone quality?  Ehhhhhhhhh, not as much.  I know enough players who have the opposite experience to recommend taking what I'ms aying here with a big grain of salt.  However, if you are like me, going big rim, modesly shallow cup can give really good results.  It's like going in for your eye exam.  Sometimes you get a lens that gives you lots of focus, but it's so focused that it gives you eye strain.  Sometimes you get a lens that is really blurry but super comfortable.  A really good lens has the perfect blend that you lose minimal visibility but still don't get headaches from the glasses.
Logged

What's in a name? that which we call a tenor-bass posaune
By any other name would smell as sweet;
sirisobhakya
ThaiJin BassTrom
*
Offline Offline

Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Joined: Jun 7, 2009
Posts: 124

View Profile
« Reply #7 on: Feb 10, 2018, 05:19AM »

From my direct experience, side-by-side, but with only 2 mouthpieces (Yamaha 48 and 59) and with marching baritone: no and yes.

It doesn't give you more volume automatically with the same amount of air. But larger mouthpiece allow you to push more air through (I think it is the effect of the throat and maybe cup depth/shape) and let the larger area of your lips vibrate (the effect of larger rim). You have higher "loudest volume possible", but not the volume increase across the board.

But that can be just me.
Logged

Chaichan Wiriyaswat

(ex) Kasetsart University Laboratory School Symphonic Band
Higashihiroshima Wind Ensemble
Yamaha YBL-830 + Yamaha Douglas Yeo Replica
Catastrophone

*
Offline Offline

Location: London
Joined: Jan 2, 2014
Posts: 287

View Profile
« Reply #8 on: Feb 10, 2018, 10:38AM »

Not in my experience.

By far my loudest bass mouthpiece is my Mt. Vernon 2G. There’s a quality to the overtones that projects through absolutely anything.
Logged
EWadie99
The Curious One

*
Offline Offline

Location: Sterling Heights, Michigan
Joined: Jan 22, 2016
Posts: 545
"Bass Trombone! It's like a musical bazooka!"


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: Feb 10, 2018, 03:09PM »

Not in my experience.

By far my loudest bass mouthpiece is my Mt. Vernon 2G. There’s a quality to the overtones that projects through absolutely anything.
This.  I've been hearing a lot of professional players who had used the 2G over the years like Ray Premru and will say that you cant beat such sound! Good!  I would love to try a MT. Vernon 2G & 1.5G someday just to see what I'm missing out on, maybe if I'm lucky, I could find one! :D 

When I first started playing a double valve bass, I had used a Bach 1G (it's what my school had for me to use :/) and it was a chore for me to use.  Then later on, I bought a Schilke 59 and used it junior year and now senior year.  I also have a 60 but I don't use it as an everyday piece, it's basically more like a backup mouthpiece more then anything.

Leif, I strongly believe that you sound great on both the MT. Vernon 2G and 1.5G in your videos!  Never change playing wise! Good!
Logged

Ethan Wadie
Adlai E. Stevenson High School
Adlai E. Stevenson High School Jazz Ensemble
Adlai E. Stevenson High School Wind Ensemble
Bones:
Getzen 1062FD
savio

*
Offline Offline

Location: Norway
Joined: Aug 10, 2006
Posts: 5163

View Profile WWW
« Reply #10 on: Feb 11, 2018, 05:08AM »

Thanks Ethan! Seems to me that this trumpeter should be taken with a grain of salt.

Leif
Logged

Bass Trombone - Conn, Holton
GetzenBassPlayer

*
Offline Offline

Location: Seattle, Washington
Joined: Aug 21, 2002
Posts: 6331
"Learn as little as you have to, as well a"


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: Feb 11, 2018, 09:05AM »

Not in my experience.

By far my loudest bass mouthpiece is my Mt. Vernon 2G. There’s a quality to the overtones that projects through absolutely anything.

I saw Charlie Vernon do Chicka Bone Checkout when he was down at ASU. I could hear is pedal tones bouncing off the back wall of the concert hall. The player makes equipment loud more than the other way around.
Logged

Pro level? Pro level!  You make it pro, you make it good You make it loved and play nice Then its a pro level horn
Leif

I can justify my position with a trombone in my hands and that's good enough for me
Beware wise men bearing equations  C. Stearn
Catastrophone

*
Offline Offline

Location: London
Joined: Jan 2, 2014
Posts: 287

View Profile
« Reply #12 on: Feb 11, 2018, 09:39AM »

I saw Charlie Vernon do Chicka Bone Checkout when he was down at ASU. I could hear is pedal tones bouncing off the back wall of the concert hall. The player makes equipment loud more than the other way around.

Absolutely the player is the biggest factor.

The same player may well get different results with different equipment though. In my experience not all mouthpieces project equally and bigger is not always louder. I’m also fairly sure that what may be loud equipment for one player may not be for another. There’s far too much in the interaction between the embouchure, mouthpiece, and instrument to make too many generalisations.

That said Charlie Vernon could probably project pedals through the back wall if you gave him a length of drainpipe.
Logged
GetzenBassPlayer

*
Offline Offline

Location: Seattle, Washington
Joined: Aug 21, 2002
Posts: 6331
"Learn as little as you have to, as well a"


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: Feb 11, 2018, 10:22AM »

Absolutely the player is the biggest factor.
That said Charlie Vernon could probably project pedals through the back wall if you gave him a length of drainpipe.

Correct.  All mouthpiece and horn combinations have the potential for volume and projection in the right hands.
Logged

Pro level? Pro level!  You make it pro, you make it good You make it loved and play nice Then its a pro level horn
Leif

I can justify my position with a trombone in my hands and that's good enough for me
Beware wise men bearing equations  C. Stearn
robcat2075

*
Offline Offline

Location: Dallas, Texas
Joined: Apr 19, 2009
Posts: 6737

View Profile
« Reply #14 on: Feb 11, 2018, 10:55AM »

If they all have the same potential... why do we have them all?
Logged

Robert Holmén

Hear me as I Play My Horn


Get your Popper, Dotzauer, or Kummer play-alongs!
Catastrophone

*
Offline Offline

Location: London
Joined: Jan 2, 2014
Posts: 287

View Profile
« Reply #15 on: Feb 11, 2018, 10:59AM »

Correct.  All mouthpiece and horn combinations have the potential for volume and projection in the right hands.

The same player may well get different results with different equipment though. In my experience not all mouthpieces project equally and bigger is not always louder. I’m also fairly sure that what may be loud equipment for one player may not be for another. There’s far too much in the interaction between the embouchure, mouthpiece, and instrument to make too many generalisations.

I still stand behind the section of my post you didn’t quote. The player is the biggest factor always, but not all equipment has the same potential for projection for the same player.
Logged
svenlarsson

*
Offline Offline

Location: Enskede, Sweden.
Joined: Sep 15, 2001
Posts: 4612

View Profile WWW
« Reply #16 on: Feb 11, 2018, 01:08PM »

I saw Charlie Vernon do Chicka Bone Checkout when he was down at ASU. I could hear is pedal tones bouncing off the back wall of the concert hall. The player makes equipment loud more than the other way around.

Well Charlie play very big mouthpieces, yes he can play loud and has a big sound. I heard other players playing the same mpc. Woofy.

What is a big sound? I heard trumpet players destroying bigbands with loudnes and big sound that the band could not match.

I think a good sound is a good goal, a very big sound is not allways a good sound.
Logged

Kanstul 1662. Bach 45B. Kanstul 1555. Besson Euphonium. Kanstul 66-S Tuba. Sackbuts in F/E/Eb Bb/A
And several horns I should sell.
Trombocholik

*
Offline Offline

Location: Moscow, Russia
Joined: Dec 24, 2007
Posts: 238

View Profile
« Reply #17 on: Feb 14, 2018, 11:14AM »

http://www.jayfriedman.net/articles/equipment_-_size_does_matter

Jay Friedman wrote:

"If you play in an orchestra full time, your choice of mouthpiece should have a great deal to do with the hall you play in. If I played in a great hall I could use a smaller mouthpiece because I wouldn't have to create so much warmth at the point of origin. I could get more help from the acoustics. The hall the Chicago Symphony Orchestra plays in is dry and hard sounding. Therefore, we must create most of the resonance ourselves, which requires that there be no edge in the sound whatsoever. That begs the question of whether you pick equipment that is the easiest to play or that sounds the best, and those two are usually not the same. As I have said before, American style instruments have a tremendous ability to focus the sound in the louder dynamics and lose core in the softer ones. Our job as players is to reverse this tendency. It may feel good for you to drive a hole through the wall with your fortissimo sound, but that is not music. Try to keep those hormones in check. I wish someone had told me this when I was starting out. My concept is to make the biggest sound that I can still focus in the medium and soft dynamics."
Logged

Trombone is out of politics
Pages: [1]   Go Up
Print
Jump to: