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Author Topic: Double Trigger Tenor Troms?  (Read 872 times)
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Zandit75
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« on: Feb 09, 2018, 06:18PM »

Do they exist? Would there be any benefit to a small bore Double Trigger tenor? Don't know Confused
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BGuttman
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« Reply #1 on: Feb 09, 2018, 06:32PM »

I think there may be a couple of special items.  Why?

One is the instrument shown in Brucolli's avatar.  The second trigger actually engages a different bell.  There is a piece in the solo literature that calls for very quick changes of muted vs. open and this is the instrument to do it.

Most of us don't do double trigger tenors because they tend to be quite heavy and the second trigger really doesn't add much capability as a tenor.  In fact, many of us play tenor on an instrument without any triggers.  Triggers are not a mark of a professional instrument.

Of course there is the special Schlagerl with 3 triggers (!) that combines the eqivalent of a valve trombone with a slide (sort of like a Superbone).  Pretty pricey way to go.
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« Reply #2 on: Feb 09, 2018, 06:38PM »

Glenn Ferris plays on a dual indy tenor; iirc, he used to use a heavily customized King 3B and now plays on an Inderbinen.
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Dukesboneman

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« Reply #3 on: Feb 09, 2018, 06:39PM »

Trombonist Glenn Ferris plays a double trigger (I believe) 3B
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sirisobhakya
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« Reply #4 on: Feb 09, 2018, 07:14PM »

Schagerl also made double trigger tenor called "Muthorn". They don't seem to make it anymore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itrHfHWDtTg
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« Reply #5 on: Feb 09, 2018, 07:49PM »

There is a "superbone" which has a piston cluster (or a newer one made by Schagerl that is 3 rotaries) that have the same fingerings as a Bb valve trombone, but in the left hand and a slide in the right.  James Morrison talks about the advantages of the system in this video.  The downsides are that you lose some of the conical tubing in a neckpipe so it can feel different than a straight trombone and - of course - cost.  The reason two valves are popular on bass trombones is the frequent use of that register.  There isn't any reason a small bore can't access that register. Indeed, a 3BF I used to own had a tremendous low register. Though the timbre is different than a bass and the fluidity is also different.  If you're doing stuff in that register you'll typically go with something bigger and consequently smaller horns tend not to even have one valve let alone two.

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Zandit75
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« Reply #6 on: Feb 09, 2018, 09:36PM »

This was purely curiosity. I understand that having a trigger is for increased range, not to be seen as better trombone. Bass troms have a limited high register due to their bore size and larger mps, but would the same limitations apply to a smaller bore version?
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robcat2075

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« Reply #7 on: Feb 09, 2018, 10:00PM »

I play a double trigger bass, a Holton TR181

Other than getting to those extra few low notes, the cases where the alternate positions, made possible by the 2nd trigger, are highly advantageous are quite rare so I presume this would be true for a double trigger tenor as well.

In the regular trombone range, the trigger and double trigger notes don't match well in timbre with open horn notes which limits their usefulness.
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« Reply #8 on: Feb 10, 2018, 05:35AM »

I almost missed that you asked about a "small bore."
That seems silly.
Why carry around all that extra weight for a few notes that will sound terrible anyway?

We discussed large-bore double-trigger tenors fairly recently, if you're interested--
http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,103309.0.html
There is a teeny tiny niche for that.

-------

I understand that having a trigger is for increased range, not to be seen as better trombone.

I use my single trigger for alternates for 6th and 7th all the time. I wouldn't limit a trigger's usefulness to "increased range."


Bass troms have a limited high register due to their bore size and larger mps, but would the same limitations apply to a smaller bore version?

We might have a potential misunderstanding here. More experienced players, please chime in, help me out!

Short answer: No.

Longer answer: Triggers have nothing to do with high range, and less than you'd think to do with low range. When a trigger isn't in use, it's the same as playing a straight trombone.

Re: bore & mouthpiece sizes + range limitations:
Good bass trombonists can play just as high as small-bore tenor trombonists, but it sounds weird up there, and it's harder.
Good small-bore tenor trombonists can slam pedals & false tones just as well as bass trombonists, but it sounds weird down there, and it's harder.

Caveats: Having to blow through a not-in-use trigger apparatus can affect resistance;
holding the extra weight of a trigger apparatus might affect how you hold it/ how it plays.
I don't know how much any of that would affect range at either end of the spectrum.
That's high-level stuff that low-level players like me don't worry so much about.
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« Reply #9 on: Feb 10, 2018, 05:42AM »

I have a double trigger Martin. The bore is .536 just like some old King single valved trombones. It places it in between a Bach 36 and a Bach 42. The trombone plays like what ever mouthpiece you are using. Put a Bach 11C in the hole (needs an adapter) and it is a smallish tenor, not the sound of a 2b but the feeling of a small trombone. Use something like a Bach 5 or Bach 4 and it plays like a symphony large bore. Use a Bach 2G, 1 1/2 G or larger and you have a double valved bass. The valve works with any mouthpiece but no real reason without a large mouthpiece.

Is it a useful instrument?  No not really, because it is not the best for anything.

/Tom
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sirisobhakya
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« Reply #10 on: Feb 10, 2018, 06:43AM »

This was purely curiosity. I understand that having a trigger is for increased range, not to be seen as better trombone. Bass troms have a limited high register due to their bore size and larger mps, but would the same limitations apply to a smaller bore version?

The triggers, especially the second one, are not that useful for increasing the range. The lowest possible note on straight trombone is a pedal E, and even bass trombone repertoire rarely descends down to that. The triggers are just there to make missing notes between the extremes playable, and to make them more accessible.
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« Reply #11 on: Feb 10, 2018, 10:11AM »

This has been discussed several times:

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,71110.0.html
http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,68066.0.html
http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,21428.0.html
http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,103309.0.html

It’s been done. It’s a special or custom thing. Necessity—the desire to expand artistic expression—is the mother of invention.
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« Reply #12 on: Feb 11, 2018, 03:53AM »

I play a double trigger bass, a Holton TR181

Other than getting to those extra few low notes, the cases where the alternate positions, made possible by the 2nd trigger, are highly advantageous are quite rare so I presume this would be true for a double trigger tenor as well.

In the regular trombone range, the trigger and double trigger notes don't match well in timbre with open horn notes which limits their usefulness.


Robert,

Do you tune your 2nd valve to G or Gb? A  valve in G makes so many things easier on a tenor trombone. I used to own a G section, and found it immensely useful in all kinds of situations. Likewise, when I was playing an independent bass, I was in Bb/F/G/Eb, and I used the G valve so much more than the F.
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« Reply #13 on: Feb 11, 2018, 08:08AM »

If.... I had two valves on a tenor it would be an F and a trill valve.
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« Reply #14 on: Feb 11, 2018, 09:42AM »

I could see an indy setup on a small-medium bore tenor for someone who was looking for the same sort of technical facility in the lower part of the bass clef staff that they have above the staff.

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« Reply #15 on: Feb 11, 2018, 10:18AM »

Wessex made a Bach-ish 547 with F and Gb valves. It was a prototype for a project that apparently went nowhere. They sold it to me very cheap. I put a 9" 5b bell on it, and it was a killer 3rd-4th bone. It could rip the hell out of a low D. With a big enough mouthpiece {1.5 - 1.25g) it sounded like a small bass. I didn't have much use for it, but it was a lot of fun to play.

Another option is the Olds P24g. I recently sold it, and kinda regret it. 9" bell, nicel silver every thing but the bell. Put a 4g in and it was a tenor you could play solos with. Put a 1.25g in and it was a bright bass.

I really like the C bass idea, though. And the Bartok valve, single bass weth a trigger to extend the valve tuning to get low B.   
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« Reply #16 on: Feb 11, 2018, 10:36AM »

I don't really get the concept of having a double valve section on smaller bore tenors.  It's seems to me, to be a moot point and I honestly think that one valve is plenty enough.

On large bore tenors on the contrary, they could make great small basses and could be given to younger players/first time users of a double valve bone before going to a bass.  I think a 9 inch bell with a bass crook on the slide with like a 2G/3G mouthpiece and the valve configuration can be the players choice could be a pretty good compromise IMHO.

In conclusion, I think that double valve tenors could be a good alternative to use to cover in like 3rd trombone in concert bands and 4th in jazz and will serve pretty well as a small bass.

FWIW I suppose.   
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« Reply #17 on: Feb 11, 2018, 11:20AM »

I have such a tenor.  I don't recommend it unless you already have a bass.  I love the horn, but it isn't a great substitute for bass but for a fairly rare circumstance.  It is good for dance band only stuff and with a 525/547 horn it makes a good 3rd big band book.  It's a lot of fun to play solo low stuff, cello suites, etc.  But There are a lot of circumstances that a real bass would be just as passable. Ergo, if you have the funds and want an additional horn, then it could work. But Having one that functions as a tenor OR a bass probably not.  At least in my experience. (My expensive experience...!) You could get two lesser expensive instruments that would serve the dual functions better for the same price point.
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« Reply #18 on: Feb 11, 2018, 04:52PM »

We seem to be discussing two different concepts of double-valve tenor at the same time. Some people are talking about a symphony-bore tenor with two valves (something like the Wessex PBF555) and using it as a small bass, while others are talking about a small bore along the lines of what Glenn Ferris plays on.

Between special orders, mods, and the Wessex, there are a decent number of the former out there, and we've discussed them quite a bit here. The latter (which is what the OP was asking about) is a good deal rarer, and I double if many of us have much experience with same.

I used to play lead in a big band with no bass trombone. I covered the odd exposed bass trombone lick on an Olds Recording with an f-attachment, and there were quite a few times as I was reaching for that low C that I wished for a second valve.

The lowest possible note on straight trombone is a pedal E, and even bass trombone repertoire rarely descends down to that
That's orchestral repertoire; if you're playing modern jazz as the only trombone in a small ensemble, the range is entirely a matter of how far you're willing and able to go.
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« Reply #19 on: Feb 11, 2018, 06:12PM »

The Brass Ark had a super nice Yamaha Custom Dbl Tenor.  Detachable 2nd valve like the YBL822.  Can those still be ordered?

If they could still be ordered (and I actually had the money), I would get:
9" rose bell with bass-like bell throat,
detachable 2nd valve,
0.562" tubing for the attachments,
0.551" single bore slide with extra length in the slide like the classic Conn single-valve basses,
and a nickel-silver outer slide.

Here's a photo from Brass Ark of the double tenor that they sold:

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« Reply #20 on: Feb 12, 2018, 05:20AM »

But Greenhoe made a few, and if Gary thought it was a good idea it is worth considering.

My impression was they were not a substitute bass, but a way to increase technical facility on a tenor. 
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