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Author Topic: Valve bone? Why?  (Read 1424 times)
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amichael
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« Reply #20 on: Feb 13, 2018, 12:28PM »

With the above suggestions that a valve trombone is a bit harder to play due to increased resistance vs a slide trombone, I am now wondering if practicing on a valve trombone might have the benefit of increasing tone saturation when playing a slide trombone (long sentence; short post).

Remember the issue of lipping notes to stay in tune working against you.

I had a period of doubling on euphonium, 20 years ago.  I was so happy when I got my hands on a compensating euphonium.  It really helped my trombone playing to not be fighting the intonation on the euphonium.
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« Reply #21 on: Feb 13, 2018, 12:43PM »

Remember the issue of lipping notes to stay in tune working against you.

I had a period of doubling on euph, 20 years ago.  I was so happy when I got my hands on a compensating euph.  It really helped my trombone playing.

Ah-ha! I get it. I'd probably just mess up what little good playing I do do.

...Geezer
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davdud101
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« Reply #22 on: Feb 13, 2018, 03:13PM »

Remember the issue of lipping notes to stay in tune working against you.

I had a period of doubling on euphonium, 20 years ago.  I was so happy when I got my hands on a compensating euphonium.  It really helped my trombone playing to not be fighting the intonation on the euphonium.

But actually hold on - we do we have lip bends and stuff? Wouldn't practicing FIGHTING against the horn improve tone and/or lip strength (by some way or another)?

Obviously for legitimate performance purposes, you WANT a horn that makes it easy to play in-tune with good tone, but in the practice room, shouldn't there sorta be something to work through that ultimately results in better playing

Idk tho. Just wondering what you guys would think.
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amichael
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« Reply #23 on: Feb 13, 2018, 05:32PM »

For me, the problem was that I started instinctively lipping notes into place on the trombone and wasn’t as accurate with my slide motions. But maybe that is just me.
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Geezerhorn

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« Reply #24 on: Feb 13, 2018, 06:06PM »

For me, the problem was that I started instinctively lipping notes into place on the trombone and wasn’t as accurate with my slide motions. But maybe that is just me.

I think that was the point for some of us. At least that is my take-away. At my level, if I pick up a valve trombone and learn to play it, I would be afraid my chops would retrain themselves to play that instrument kinda in tune (if I played it diligently enough and exclusively). Then if I picked up a slide trombone, my intonation might be all over the place. I don't need that any more than it already is. So I have to figure there would be more downside than upside for me in that misadventure. Heck, I'm just now wrapping my head around my two trombones each having their own intonation quirks. Unless there is serious money involved, why complicate a hobby unnecessarily.

And just because a handful of very talented pros alternated playing a valve 'bone well vs their slide 'bone, doesn't mean a thing to me any more than who plays what make/model horn and with what make/size mouthpiece. I mean, it's interesting, but all any of it really means to me is that it is humanly possible and apparently a good match for them but not necessarily doable or a good match for me.

But I can admire anyone who is accomplished on any kind of trombone. There's nothing wrong with any variation; just maybe some not for me. A very few of us can pick up most anything and sound reasonably good on it while the rest of us must specialize to have any chance at all. I'm thinking of James Morrison playing wickedly high & fast on a double-trigger bass 'bone and then turning around and wailing on a trumpet. Guys like him have more talent in their pinky than I will ever have in my whole body over a lifetime.

A valve trombone is cool. Bravo to those who can play one. And if they can play one well, I will listen.

So why a valve 'bone? Because some can and sound darn good doing it.

...Geezer
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« Reply #25 on: Feb 13, 2018, 07:00PM »

Well-stated, Geez! I guess that's the major takeaway here - at least from the aspect of "do or don't" - some will manage it, some won't. I've been working for quite some time o my trumpet playing and have come close to giving up a number of times because I just didn't feel like it was "me". Other days, I felt like I was playing far better than I do on trombone (as if that says much).

Bottom line is that we wanna sound good. Some things are worth doing, or at least trying, for "sounding good" in general - other things end up being detrimental.
At our level, playing mostly for fun, it's a blessing to be able to choose and try things out without the pressure of a playing career to uphold.


But now I'm off-topic!
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« Reply #26 on: Feb 13, 2018, 10:31PM »

i  dislocated  my left shoulder  on a beer  run   doing  a  biker   pig roast   on lou antons   farm
  lou was   doing  time  at the fed  camp  in marion  illinois  for 1.5  million  marijuna bust
  so  i  was  in this  van when it went  off in a ditch 
-----------
  big larry  and code  blues   soon after   had  a  gig at  minimum security corrections  facility  in
centralia  [maybe pinckyville]  i borrowed  a 2b valve  no  practice  and did  it cold 
------------
do watcha  do 
play  watcha  got
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amichael
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« Reply #27 on: Feb 14, 2018, 12:47AM »

BTW, I do keep some valves around. Currently a beater Getzen bass trumpet and a really nice German solo alto with a circular wrap like a hunting horn. Both are compact and great for traveling.
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« Reply #28 on: Feb 14, 2018, 03:06AM »

We usually play Verdi operas on valve trombones. It doesn't really make it easier but gives a right sound. I play Courtois with 3 pistons. Pretty nice horn.
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« Reply #29 on: Feb 14, 2018, 05:06AM »


Here`s a couple others

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPN-vibtrZY  - Rob McConnell

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQXM-8EcLXE  - Mike Fahn (his solo starts at the 3:48 mark)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dZ8qReZ9Ek - Larry Smith (From The band - Lighthouse)
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« Reply #30 on: Feb 14, 2018, 05:16AM »

the  courtois  are  nice  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  light  delicate  facile  !!!!!!!


We usually play Verdi operas on valve trombones. It doesn't really make it easier but gives a right sound. I play Courtois with 3 pistons. Pretty nice horn.
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Geezerhorn

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« Reply #31 on: Feb 14, 2018, 07:13AM »

Here`s a couple others

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPN-vibtrZY  - Rob McConnell

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQXM-8EcLXE  - Mike Fahn (his solo starts at the 3:48 mark)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dZ8qReZ9Ek - Larry Smith (From The band - Lighthouse)

Holy moly! What's wrong with any of those! Nuthin'!

Thanks for posting those links!  Good!

Okay. So valve 'bones may get a bad rap as far as playing them is concerned, but they shouldn't get a bad rap as far as being played is concerned.

...Geezer
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« Reply #32 on: Feb 14, 2018, 09:09AM »

look  how  easy  trumpetplayers  go at it 
 thumb  hook  ..3rd  slide    ---or not
-----------------------
a  simple  3 v baritone 000ez  to play  and fun
-----------------
 the  finer  points  --intonation --ok  yes  --car hurt the  ear
you  dont  play the  vvvvvvvv   like  a  slider okokokoko
go  at  it  easier    donnnna try to  force   it --let  it play
 just a  couple  of   notes  ---fool around  w  a  couple of notes
ok   trill  --try  some  noodles w the  second   valve
----------
  okokokokok  what  about   happy   birthday  --can you  play  it  ???????
listen --iffa  you  cant   play  it  on yo slider
forgitaboudit  ---get  a  flutophone
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davdud101
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« Reply #33 on: Feb 14, 2018, 09:56AM »

Curious about another oddity... a number of companies actually make ROTARY valve trombones.
What's the use of this instrument? What benefit can that serve over a horn with piston valves? I haven't heard a MASSIVE amount of piston/rotary tests and stuff, but I also feel like it's only useful in certain classical (or maybe some pit orchestra) situations? Especially when rotaries don't quite match the articulation of piston valves in, for example a big band setting  :-0

 Amazed
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« Reply #34 on: Feb 14, 2018, 11:38AM »

For a long time in the 19th/early 20th C, it wasn't clear whether slides or valves would win. Valves were the hot technology of the time. Certainly, Verdi wrote for piston valves, and I still see them in Italian wind bands today. I've also heard claims that German low brass were valves in Wagner's day, which suggests a whole other sound world.

In the end, slides won, and Simone Mantia was forced by the Brooklyn Opera to switch to slide within a week.

LOL, what was it, World War 1? "Mr. Mantia, I'm afraid I must inform you that the slide has just won. You sadly have just one week from today to get your slide trombone chops back."

I imagine it wasn't a finite event.
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« Reply #35 on: Feb 14, 2018, 11:41AM »

Is that Mantia on the Sunday Band Concert?

I listen to Old Oaken Bucket with awe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riG1xrXZiu4

He certainly got that slide moving. 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #36 on: Feb 14, 2018, 11:45AM »

But actually hold on - we do we have lip bends and stuff? Wouldn't practicing FIGHTING against the horn improve tone and/or lip strength (by some way or another)?

lip bends might help trumpeters, but is kind of pointless on a trombone. I've seen advice about it, but it's better to just blow through the pitch center and move the slide. Your lips are still changing as the "bend" happens.

I've also seen advice about false tones being great, but I doubt they help as much as blowing through the pitch center and playing a clean note on the F side of the horn -- as much as just playing the note "for real".
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« Reply #37 on: Feb 14, 2018, 12:06PM »

Curious about another oddity... a number of companies actually make ROTARY valve trombones.
What's the use of this instrument? What benefit can that serve over a horn with piston valves? I haven't heard a MASSIVE amount of piston/rotary tests and stuff, but I also feel like it's only useful in certain classical (or maybe some pit orchestra) situations? Especially when rotaries don't quite match the articulation of piston valves in, for example a big band setting  :-0

 Amazed

Rotary valves were popular in Eastern Europe.  Rotors have an advantage in that the throw of a rotor is shorter than a piston.  Also, rotory valves fit well with "flat" finger positions since the motion of the lever and the motion of a flat finger are approximately the same; you'd need to curve fingers and push with the tips to play a piston valve with no lateral strain.

Incidentally, I thought it was the Metropolitan Opera that told Mantia to change to a slide trombone.  He was also the Euphonium virtuoso for Sousa's Band.
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« Reply #38 on: Feb 14, 2018, 02:42PM »

In the You Tube post by John Beers on page one is a guy playing a Williams horn with a valve section. Very unusual to see. When Earl Williams did that he used a Conn 5G valve section most of the time. Looks like that is what this guy is playing. Earl did one for Dave Wells, for some reason when Dave started plying with the Baja Marimba band they liked that sound. So he had Earl make one for him. Just unusual to see.
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« Reply #39 on: Feb 15, 2018, 05:56PM »

    Why not?
    I have 2 valve bones - one is a 1954 Reynolds Model 75 (.483 bore) I got from Bob Brookmeyer, and there are just tunes that lay well for it.  I also have listened to a lot if his playing, as well as Rob MConnell, Ashley Alexander, and the like.  As my primary horn is trumpet, I like the valve bone for playing bebop with small groups.
    The other is an Olds "Marching Trombone" (.508 bore) I got on the advice of Mic Gillette.  It plays and sounds more like a regular trombone, and the tight wrap makes it better for smaller stages, and for rock bands where I have to juggle trumpet and bone parts.  I've had hooks put on so I can play it left handed.  It's also handy when a Tenor Sax player has to skip a rehearsal with my band, as I can (usually) play tenor parts on it without too much pain.
    Each has a place it works best, and each has its own sound and feel.
    And, of course, if I ever win the lotto, I want a double trombone like James Morrison has.  :D
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