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The Trombone ForumTeaching & LearningPedagogy(Moderators: JP, Doug Elliott) Stevens-Costello Palm Exercise adapted for tenor trombone
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Author Topic: Stevens-Costello Palm Exercise adapted for tenor trombone  (Read 499 times)
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bonenick

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« on: Feb 14, 2018, 07:36AM »

For quite of time I thought of adapting this for trombone...I came up with something, it may be not perfect, but it works.

Feel free to comment. I would be particularly interested in feedback of any Costello trombone students, but anyone is wellcome to.

https://youtu.be/m3tVgEXxtQo
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Doug Elliott
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« Reply #1 on: Feb 14, 2018, 08:20AM »

What benefit do you think you get from that?
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« Reply #2 on: Feb 14, 2018, 08:31AM »

On trumpet it is easier. It actually forces you to play with less pressure in the high register. With time and getting used to it  helps with high register. It did augment my high range on trumpet with a 5th (combined with the pencil exercise).
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« Reply #3 on: Feb 14, 2018, 08:40AM »

I couldn't be sure what you're doing and I don't know anything about Costello.

Are you just trying to balance the trombone on your palm and play with no pressure?  the video was a little dark. 

I notice your horn moves up as you ascend, and so does your head.  Hmm.

Anyway, to me it sounds exactly like I do if I carefully set low, unlike my normal center, and don't allow my motion to occur.  Your low Bb was fairly clear and the tone got worse as you went up, which is what happens to me if I do it that way. 

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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #4 on: Feb 14, 2018, 08:48AM »

Yes, Timothy, I try to balance the horn on my palm while playing (just partials indeed, right hand takes no participation in the act.

Trumpet is lighter and its construction makes the act easier (I hardly imagine this on a trigger or even less on bass trombones).

I also imagine that placing some kind of wrap support may facilitate that act, but not sure how harmless would that be for the trombone.

It's more of an experimentation, but my teacher, Larry Meregillano (trumpet) says that Costello had many trombone students and had done similar work with them. That was just my first attempt at it, I will need a bit more of experimentation how to do it with less effort, so I direct all my attention to airflow, body use and embouchure development. I am rather confident about its chances to give the above mentioned benefits.

In short, Costello advocated palm exercise, pencil exercise and unfurled embouchure (you can thing of Maggio as well)
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timothy42b
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« Reply #5 on: Feb 14, 2018, 10:09AM »

I had always thought of Maggio as rolled in rather than curled out.  I skimmed through his book just now and I'm not sure.  He says to firm the lower lip against the eye teeth, but also to push the lips forward as if to whistle.  Those seem contradictory.   So I don't know, maybe you need to have a Maggio teacher show you what is meant.  He also demands the mouthpiece high, up against the nose, and the lower lip pushed up and behind the upper.  And he uses large amounts of pedal tones.

Back to your exercise.  I think there is some chance it is counterproductive on trombone.  My idea is that you're setting it up to minimize the motion and setting that would make it easier to play.  That would force you to develop some muscular strength, but it would also develop the skill set to play incorrectly. 

It's hard to put this into print.  I'm not sure if it's worth trying a video or not. 

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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #6 on: Feb 14, 2018, 10:14AM »

It's possible to put the trombone on a piece of furniture and play it that way. I haven't tried yet. Worth trying though.
Maggio is definitely a rolled out embouchure. Look for the famous Maggio Monkey.
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timothy42b
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« Reply #7 on: Feb 14, 2018, 10:38AM »

I have the Macbeth book.  I thought it was a chimp, but having googled images I guess I have to agree it's a monkey. 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #8 on: Feb 14, 2018, 10:52AM »

Macbeth?  :D to chimp or not to chimp, that's the question
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« Reply #9 on: Feb 14, 2018, 11:03AM »

The Maggio book I have with the monkey on the cover was written by Carleton Macbeth. 
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Doug Elliott
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« Reply #10 on: Feb 14, 2018, 12:39PM »

Oh good, more teaching for me fixing chops screwed up by another method.
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« Reply #11 on: Feb 14, 2018, 01:43PM »

Facepalm
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bonenick

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« Reply #12 on: Feb 14, 2018, 02:17PM »

There is more than one way to go to Rome (no disrespect intended, Doug  :) )

I already have a range to boast with that most players with one 1 year of experience can envy me for. Actually, I have more range, that I can manage with my slide technique (which needs some serious attention, guilty as charged). Anyway, without being argumentative, let me do it for a little while and we'll see how it works. I don't see any possible dramatic scenario. In the worst case, I may decide that it is not good enough and continue just play the tbone the common way.
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« Reply #13 on: Feb 14, 2018, 02:19PM »

There is more than one way to go to Rome (no disrespect intended, Doug  :) )

I already have a range to boast with that most players with one 1 year of experience can envy me for. Actually, I have more range, that I can manage with my slide technique (which needs some serious attention, guilty as charged). Anyway, without being argumentative, let me do it for a little while and we'll see how it works. I don't see any possible dramatic scenario. In the worst case, I may decide that it is not good enough and continue just play the tbone the common way.

 Good!

I admire your independence.

Has your efforts on 'bone playing had any impact upon your trumpet playing? Maybe you mentioned it somewhere else and I just didn't see the post.

...Geezer
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« Reply #14 on: Feb 14, 2018, 02:25PM »

Geez,

I cannot be sure, as I was advancing quite a bit my range on trumpet as I was trying to find my path with the bone. Certainly it makes some good as far as breathing is concerned (When I started my BMus at the conservatory, my trumpet teacher had this idea - to transfer me to his brother, teacher of Tuba, so I can learn to breath).

Another benefit is that with time I learned to adapt more quickly to very different sizes of mouthpieces. But I practiced the switch very consistently to get there. Hope that helps.

In the middle of that adventure I got an inguinal hernia, but I got surgery treatment and I am back to serious playing now.

The negative - playing for long period (like an hour) on trombone reduces my reliability and top register on trumpet if I have to switch right away to trumpet. But I see that with time I learn to get a little better with it. What James Morisson does is a hard job, don't be fooled.
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« Reply #15 on: Feb 14, 2018, 02:39PM »

Geez,

I cannot be sure, as I was advancing quite a bit my range on trumpet as I was trying to find my path with the bone. Certainly it makes some good as far as breathing is concerned (When I started my BMus at the conservatory, my trumpet teacher had this idea - to transfer me to his brother, teacher of Tuba, so I can learn to breath).

Another benefit is that with time I learned to adapt more quickly to very different sizes of mouthpieces. But I practiced the switch very consistently to get there. Hope that helps.

In the middle of that adventure I got an inguinal hernia, but I got surgery treatment and I am back to serious playing now.

The negative - playing for long period (like an hour) on trombone reduces my reliability and top register on trumpet if I have to switch right away to trumpet. But I see that with time I learn to get a little better with it. What James Morisson does is a hard job, don't be fooled.

I personally think that is an asset, although others may disagree. Many feel the need to stay on a one-rim-size-fits-all mpc. No matter. If it works out for you without messing you up, that is what is important.

I find I can switch rims/cup shapes well - to a point, even switching in the middle of a session multiple times if I want to - with seeming impunity. But when I get to the two extremes, I need time for adjustment. For example, to play a Bach 12 well, I have to dog it. I can't just let it sit on the shelf a while, pick it up and expect much. Same with a Bach 1.5G. But those are the extreme extremes. Anything within about from a Bach 7 small shank to a Bach 4G large shank is fair game. Although, the more time I spend on the larger sizes for lowerer work, the tighter the fit on the smaller rims. I will label that the "Sam Burtis Effect", b/c he described the very same sensation in another thread.  ;-)

Let me know if you need any more mp3 practice files. If I have the music, I can probably get them to you.

...Geezer   
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« Reply #16 on: Feb 14, 2018, 02:44PM »

Thanks Geez,

I use now IrealPro app, it gives me more back tracks that I can handle - jazz, pop, italian etc...it is very rare to wish for something that cannot be obtained with a click. Basically it is a light version of Band-in-A-box and works well for me. But thanks for the offer, If I want to do something that I cannot find, I may give you a shout.
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Doug Elliott
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« Reply #17 on: Feb 14, 2018, 04:48PM »

There is more than one way to go to Rome (no disrespect intended, Doug  :) )

I already have a range to boast with that most players with one 1 year of experience can envy me for. Actually, I have more range, that I can manage with my slide technique (which needs some serious attention, guilty as charged). Anyway, without being argumentative, let me do it for a little while and we'll see how it works. I don't see any possible dramatic scenario. In the worst case, I may decide that it is not good enough and continue just play the tbone the common way.

In other words, you got your chops together doing something else, not that.
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« Reply #18 on: Feb 14, 2018, 11:59PM »

I must admit, Doug, that you are absolutely right. However, contrary to what everyone on this site was trying to teach me (I can be very stubborn occasionally) when I reached a plateau on my trombone high register development aligning jaws and using the Costello embouchure setup (basically the Maggio setup of superpucker with aligned jaws) made me go higher with less pressure.
To be honest, when starting on this setup it felt weirder on Trombone that it feels on trumpet. But it works for me (no, I don't have any trauma). Will the palm exercise give me the above mentioned benefits - I don't really know, but I don't see how it may hurt my playing... except for eventually wasted time on it.
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« Reply #19 on: Feb 15, 2018, 03:31AM »

Well, it is sometimes good to test new ways. Try every thing... use what works.
 
But after trying, do not hesitate to stop doing things that do not work.

If you have lots of sparetime and no up coming gigs it may be a good time to test new things, but take it easy, it may take some time to find your way back.
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