Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1080384 Posts in 71498 Topics- by 19054 Members - Latest Member: trombonejb
Jump to:  
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 ... 526   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Religion - good or bad?  (Read 1160748 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
SchuylkillCountyBoner

*
Offline Offline

Location: Auburn, Pennsylvania
Joined: Jun 9, 2004
Posts: 682

View Profile
« Reply #20 on: Dec 26, 2004, 05:45PM »

somehow i knew this was going to happen, but anyways,each life has a purpose,  you have to look outside of just the death and look at the effect it has on the ppl, God doesnt allow babies into the world just so they die right then and there with no effect on anyone else, there is an effect somewhere because of that life, whether you can see it or not, usually you wont be able to see it

Quote
This, I feel, is one of the bad things about religion - it can lead people into thinking there have a ligitimate excuse for war - they can said that God told them to go to war. The use their religion as a cushion to allow them to do what they want. They can intreprete the 'rules' or 'guidelines' according to how they feel, and bend them to their will, and then pass everything off as being allowed according to the will of God.


how do you know those ppl werent actually led by the will of God?? ppl wouldnt go to war just for the hell of it, God gave certain ppl the talent of interpretation! it was considered a blessing to be able to interpret, back in the old days, God would basically speak directly to some of the leaders, so to them, there was no doubt that it was from God. Unless they were schizophrenic, voices dont just appear out of nowhere
and also, you act like all this death from the wars was all out of hate! just because nowadays everyone always picks a fight because of hate on both sides, doesnt mean that back then it was 100% hate for wars, one side would start it, usually the "bad" side, God would bless those that were the "good" people, aka the followers, and would protect them, didnt God say that he would protect his disciples?? its not like hes going to put up a force field and then noone dies at all

also, the free will bit you were talking about, ok, i didnt mean it to come out as a compromise of free will, but God gives us our Free Will, but he knows every single move we're going to make, when we're going to make it, and what's going to happen because of our move, and he can add factors to help control/use the abilities of each follower for the good, so its like we're never out of reach from our "father" he basically gave birth to all of mankind, so we are his children, and the father wants to look out for his children, if his children stray away, hes going to try and get them back, and also, hes going to try and make each child's life worth something and have a positive effect, God loves everyone no matter what, he might not be 100% happy with everyone, but he will still love them no matter what, God even loves Hitler, hard to believe, God is probably disappointed in him, that he killed 10 million people, but he still loves each person, for those of you out there with kids, if your kid does something bad, are you going to hate him for doing something bad? you might be upset, but the underlying fact is you love your child,  but anywho, i could go on and on and on and on and on, and if i actually had a good memory of bible text id be sitting here for hours, but i dont, so ill just end it there and leave this convo alone, this dispute is going to go on for the rest of eternity until its the time for the Apocalypse! so i guess this is my goodbye for this topic!
Logged

Your heart is where the music is.  Let the world see your passion, and let them hear your every desire, all through that big shiney piece of brass that tells of your souls secrets.
TimS
*
Offline Offline

Location: New York, NY
Joined: Apr 30, 2002
Posts: 1405

View Profile
« Reply #21 on: Dec 26, 2004, 05:47PM »

Religion is a personal thing.  For some people, it is beneficial.  It can comfort people, or provide a community, or a kind of purpose in life.  Many people find they need religion to provide these things, others find them elsewhere.  It basically comes down to what you believe, and what you feel you need.  I was born Jewish and have been Bar Mitzvah'd and everything, but my own personal beliefs do not entirely mesh with the teachings of the Jewish religion, or with any organized religion.  Not today, at least.  I don't feel that I would be any better off, or would be a better person were I religious.  However, I've done a lot of perfomances in churches lately, including a performance of Menotti's Amahl and the Night Visitors and a midnight mass in a Catholic church, and I can see the positive effects that religious belief and belonging to a religious group can have.  Basically, as far as I'm concerned, it's just a personal thing.
Logged

Tim Shneier
NYC-based freelancer
harmonslide
formerly tbone stakes

*
Offline Offline

Location: Akron, OH
Joined: Oct 3, 2002
Posts: 3697

View Profile
« Reply #22 on: Dec 26, 2004, 05:56PM »

Quote from: "SchuylkillCountyBoner"
how do you know those ppl werent actually led by the will of God?? ppl wouldnt go to war just for the hell of it,


How do you know those people were commanded by God?

People do go to war for odd reasons--a cow, personal pride, intolerance, etc. Not all just 'cuz God said so'.

Quote
God gave certain ppl the talent of interpretation! it was considered a blessing to be able to interpret, back in the old days, God would basically speak directly to some of the leaders, so to them, there was no doubt that it was from God. Unless they were schizophrenic, voices dont just appear out of nowhere


Mmm-hmm. It also could have been that the leader was going by his own free will. "Hey, um, guys, you need to go kill those people.... because, um, God spoke to me. But he, um, can't speak to you. Because I'm special... yeah..."

Wouldn't it be a lot easier for God just to speak directly to everyone? It would make more sense, too. Less people to doubt the messages.

Quote
and also, you act like all this death from the wars was all out of hate! just because nowadays everyone always picks a fight because of hate on both sides, doesnt mean that back then it was 100% hate for wars,


Just because it was a long time ago doesn't mean that it wasn't hate. Hate has been the fundamental reasoning for war since the dawn of time, back to when Ug stole Zerk's rock, so Ug and his cronies angrily plotted revenge.

Quote
one side would start it, usually the "bad" side, God would bless those that were the "good" people, aka the followers, and would protect them, didnt God say that he would protect his disciples?? its not like hes going to put up a force field and then noone dies at all


Sometimes there is no 'bad' side. Just opposing sides. What makes them 'bad'?

Quote
so its like we're never out of reach from our "father" he basically gave birth to all of mankind, so we are his children, and the father wants to look out for his children, if his children stray away, hes going to try and get them back, and also, hes going to try and make each child's life worth something and have a positive effect,


If fathers did what you're saying God does, they'd have their other children kill the naughty children who misbehaved or didn't believe in Santa Claus...

Quote
God loves everyone no matter what, he might not be 100% happy with everyone, but he will still love them no matter what, God even loves Hitler,


That's like kicking someone in the nether regions, saying "sorry", and doing it again immediately. Yeah... God loves all, so he favors some and has them kill the other ones. Right.
Logged
SensitiveJohn
*
Offline Offline

Location: Boston
Joined: Nov 23, 2001
Posts: 10407

View Profile
« Reply #23 on: Dec 26, 2004, 06:01PM »

The president of the Mormons is on Larry King right now.
Logged
Baron von Bone
Fear is the Mind-Killer.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Athens, GA (USA)
Joined: Jul 16, 2002
Posts: 18421
"Reality Junkie"


View Profile
« Reply #24 on: Dec 26, 2004, 06:21PM »

Quote from: "TimS"
Religion is a personal thing.  For some people, it is beneficial.  It can comfort people, or provide a community, or a kind of purpose in life.  Many people find they need religion to provide these things, others find them elsewhere.

I (generally) agree. But in my experience far fewer people really need religion than think they/we do. People are tougher and stronger and better than religion would have us think -- than we tend to think because we've bought into the whole religion schtick since pre-history.
 
The problem is that faith/religion is like a drug. Some people really do need it, others use it more than they need to, and some use it for comfort (recreationally). But what people fail to recognize is that it's toxic -- it'll kill your mind (your critical faculties) if you're not careful.
 
We're a culture of abusers, though, so we as a society are also very good enablers and rationalizers. The faith/religion-related "stinkin' thinkin'" is so popular it's not only common wisdom but it's been elevated to the status of high virtue (consult "drug addiction" and "Alcoholics Anonymous" on Google if you need to check out some of those terms).
 
I have no problem at all with people "using" religion who really need it, or even recreationally, as long as they don't develop a problematic habit. Unfortunately a problem habit (to one degree or another) is the norm, and it's seriously skewed public perceptions of religion. The calibration of our religious toxicity monitors (our natural critical faculties) is seriously off. Of course that's the whole point of starting with a leap of faith -- turns off and re(mis)calibrates the toxicity monitor according to the environment in which it's turned back on.
 
Byron (the skeptic)
Logged

- Feeding a troll just gives it a platform and amplifies its voice.
 
- Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves.  - Richard Feynman
- He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool.   - Confucius
Baron von Bone
Fear is the Mind-Killer.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Athens, GA (USA)
Joined: Jul 16, 2002
Posts: 18421
"Reality Junkie"


View Profile
« Reply #25 on: Dec 26, 2004, 06:48PM »

Most of the time someone argues that atheists and agnostics (sometimes any and all non-Christians) just need to read the Bible, or that the Bible can't be legitimately criticized, they haven't read the Bible, and if they have they certainly haven't done so critically or objectively. I have myself, by the way (more atheists and agnostics, per capita, have, actually) -- twice straight through (once as a believer and once post-apostasy -- very different experiences) and I'm sure several times by reading and studying parts at a time (unlike most church-taught believers, without avoiding certain parts or using a vast supply of "Get Out of Scrutiny Free" cards).
 
It's an easy pseudo-challenge to present, though, because the Bible almost always gets a free pass on scrutiny in the West (more so in the US), so it's a really popular cheer to lead, but that's really all it amounts to. As long as you just ride the approval rather than actually practicing what you're preaching, it works really well.
 
To anyone honestly interested in critically considering the validity of the Bible though, I'd suggest seeing if you can answer genuine criticism with sufficient valid responses (i.e. without relying on using fallacies), not the utter buelshite, heavily fallacy-dependent apologetics of Josh McDowell (et al). Deal with the many contradictions (try Dan Barker's "Easter Challenge" called Leave No Stone Unturned for an intro) and the many other fatal flaws in and about the Bible.
 
You can come out of a genuine, honest analysis of the Bible and maintain your Christianity, but you can't come out of it believing atheists and agnostics (sometimes any and all non-Christians) just need to read the Bible, or that the Bible can't be legitimately criticized, or anything of the sort.
 
I can easily compile a short booklist for anyone who is genuinely interested in honestly analyzing the validity of the Bible and Christianity.
 
Byron (the skeptic)
Logged

- Feeding a troll just gives it a platform and amplifies its voice.
 
- Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves.  - Richard Feynman
- He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool.   - Confucius
Deano
*
Offline Offline

Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Joined: May 23, 2000
Posts: 726

View Profile WWW
« Reply #26 on: Dec 26, 2004, 07:04PM »

The best thing to come out of church is music.


Deano
Logged

Luke
*
Offline Offline

Location: Spaceship Earth
Joined: Feb 20, 2003
Posts: 677

View Profile
« Reply #27 on: Dec 26, 2004, 07:07PM »

One of the most entertaining bits of religion has got to be arguments about religion.
Logged

[insert trombone accomplishment here]
SchuylkillCountyBoner

*
Offline Offline

Location: Auburn, Pennsylvania
Joined: Jun 9, 2004
Posts: 682

View Profile
« Reply #28 on: Dec 26, 2004, 07:13PM »

ok, i just read that one site about all the inconsistencies in the Bible, i am laughing, those people took God's word and tried to twist them in any way possible! i checked out some of the verses that this one guy was quoting, some of them were nowhere close to what he had there, he altered and didnt take into context what the previous and following verses after each one of those verses said, he took one verse, compared it to another verse and goes "heres where it doesnt make sense", well duh, if you would actually read EVERYTHING there is to it, it would make sense! im sorry, its just ive seen that done so many times and it really pisses me off when ppl are ignorant of all the details, and for some of the things that he said were inconsistent werent different at all, it was basically the same verse 3 times, yet he said it was inconsistent....... hahahaha, im sorry, some ppl just amaze me at their stupidity
Logged

Your heart is where the music is.  Let the world see your passion, and let them hear your every desire, all through that big shiney piece of brass that tells of your souls secrets.
Baron von Bone
Fear is the Mind-Killer.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Athens, GA (USA)
Joined: Jul 16, 2002
Posts: 18421
"Reality Junkie"


View Profile
« Reply #29 on: Dec 26, 2004, 07:19PM »

Such is the nature (and often the totality) of most believers' analyses.
 
 Yeah, RIGHT.
 
In my experience with many who have done so, most believers who recognize a need to at least give some kind of lip service to the notion of examining their beliefs do so by seeking anything that can be construed as an error in the criticism. Finding one (and they will, of course), they presume they're done -- they've found that the criticism is lacking. The problem is that exposes what they were really after. Instead of actually critically examining their beliefs, they've found a way to counterfeit an examination -- by finding an error, or just something they can dismiss in relative psychological/emotional comfort (which is pretty easy for them, usually, because they can be hypercritical of the criticism while at the same time taking the exact opposite cognitive posture toward the faith).
 
In short, objectivity in religious criticisim is pretty hard to come by (and where you do find it you certainly don't find fundamentalism or belief in biblical inerrancy). But as I said above, for those honestly interested . . .
 
Byron (the skeptic)
Logged

- Feeding a troll just gives it a platform and amplifies its voice.
 
- Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves.  - Richard Feynman
- He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool.   - Confucius
harmonslide
formerly tbone stakes

*
Offline Offline

Location: Akron, OH
Joined: Oct 3, 2002
Posts: 3697

View Profile
« Reply #30 on: Dec 26, 2004, 07:21PM »

Shulky, the same can be said about religious folk. Certainly, there is out-of-context-ness in those pages. But what I see that is more abundant, and more dangerous, is the twisting of the Bible by religious followers. I can't count how many times people will quote 2 lines of the bible and say it dismisses gay marriage, but they shrink away at the idea of someone quoting 2 lines about God killing little babies.
Logged
Frank B
« Reply #31 on: Dec 26, 2004, 07:57PM »

I'll peep in for a short bit here to answer you questio  the best I can. If anyone has valid comments concerning my post I'll do my upmost to answer them, but past that I'm quite familiar with some of the more outspoken people on religion and do not wish to relive the same argument again.

Quote from: "Tomahawk"
What I'm wondering is, taking as assumption that God does not exist, is religion or any sort (organised or non-organised) a good or a bad thing?

Good.

Quote from: "Tomahawk"
And why?

Religion teachs you to love and respect others, helps ease the suffering, and guides people towards a respectable life.

Quote from: "Tomahawk"
What bad points does religion have?
that people frequently abuse and contourt it to suit their purposes. Your first reason for a bad part of religion is a prime example.

Quote from: "tbone stakes"
However, there would probably be less deaths related to religious intolerance.

True. If there was no religion there would be less deaths due to it. However, I greatly doubt that there would be any less deaths- and quite possibly more. Christianity specifically says not to kill, yet people claiming to be christian do so. Are they following the religion when they do so? No. Are they possibly contourting it to suit their purposes and following that? Yes. The sad fact is that if people want to kill someone, they will probably kill them. If they didn't fasely use religion as an excuse then there would be another excuse. Someone like that is not conforming their life to the way dictated by religion but conforming the religion to support to the way that they wish to live.

Quote from: "TBone Stakes"
If the devil causes intolerance, why are religious people, in general, more intolerant than say, secular people?

Because they are not. Just look at the murders in this country. Do you think over half of them are caused because people believed God told them to? Very doubtful.

Quote from: "Baron von Bone"
Consider what items of your lists are often faithfully duplicated in secular organizations, and which are more exclusive to religious ones.

Oh come now Byron, I thought you liked useing science and logic? :-P

Also consider those same secular organizations consist of people in and of a culture greatly shaped by religion. Your data is corrupt.

There is also the great possiblity that if a single or multiple Gods exist after all that they do indeed influence people's lives towards cooperation and respect, whether that  person is religious or not.

Quote from: "Baron von Bone"

You can come out of a genuine, honest analysis of the Bible and maintain your Christianity, but you can't come out of it believing atheists and agnostics (sometimes any and all non-Christians) just need to read the Bible, or that the Bible can't be legitimately criticized, or anything of the sort.

I know you like to think you are the ultimate authority over your life, but please do not pretend that you are also the authority over others' lives as well and dictate what they can and cannot do.

Quote from: "Shortstuff"
You see pastors, priests, preachers, and whoevers doing the interpreting for people, does it occur to you that there are those few (very few, I know, but still) of those higher church powers that have molested young boys, and you excpect them to interpret for people the correct way it was meant to?

First off, one man doing a single "bad" thing does not instantly corrupt every other aspect of his actions or thoughts. You can smack me and I can turn around and smack the ever living **** out of you, fully knowing that my religion says to turn the other cheek. That doesn not mean my interpritation is off. It just means that for a short time I chose not to follow it.

Secondly, humans will never be perfect. There will always be some error. They key is to recogonize it and constantly look for it.

Quote from: "Shortstuff"
There seems to be a lack of people being able to interpret the Bible for themselves, does that concern anyone?

Not really, as there doesn't seem to be a lack of people able to interprit the bible.

As Far as SchuylkillCountyBoner... Yes there are many problems with his side, but yes he is still young- as am I. To go into it though would be an increadibly long conversation that would not have relevance here.

But quickly, concerning one brief thing he brought up:
Quote from: "Tomahawk"
I find it difficult to believe that God has every persons life planned. This seems to contradict the Free Will bit that gets bandied about so much.


This is known as Predestination, and mostly known/followed with Presbyterians. It means that in God's all-knowing nature, he knows what we will do before it is done. It does not influence what we will do or why we will do it, as we do  not know what He does. We still have the freedom to make our own choices, it's just that God already knows which ones we will make.
Logged
TimS
*
Offline Offline

Location: New York, NY
Joined: Apr 30, 2002
Posts: 1405

View Profile
« Reply #32 on: Dec 26, 2004, 08:35PM »

Quote from: "Frank B"

But quickly, concerning one brief thing he brought up:
Quote from: "Tomahawk"
I find it difficult to believe that God has every persons life planned. This seems to contradict the Free Will bit that gets bandied about so much.


This is known as Predestination, and mostly known/followed with Presbyterians. It means that in God's all-knowing nature, he knows what we will do before it is done. It does not influence what we will do or why we will do it, as we do  not know what He does. We still have the freedom to make our own choices, it's just that God already knows which ones we will make.


Doesn't that mean that we don't really have free will, but rather the illusion of free will?
Logged

Tim Shneier
NYC-based freelancer
Frank B
« Reply #33 on: Dec 26, 2004, 10:10PM »

Quote from: "TimS"
Doesn't that mean that we don't really have free will, but rather the illusion of free will?


No, because while He knows what we will do, that knowledge does not influence our decidions or actions.

I know several people well enough to determine in a given situation what their next action or words will be, and fairly often I am right. However, my simple knowledge of what they are most likly to do does not influence their actions unless I act on that knowledge.

The difference between that and predestination is where I can know what a few people are likly to do within a short period of time, God knows what every person will do and he knows what they will do during their entire life. At points He may choose to influence. You still have the ability to react to that influence as you wish.
Logged
Tomahawk
Big T.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Dublin, Ireland
Joined: May 25, 2003
Posts: 3606
"The Tomahawk"


View Profile
« Reply #34 on: Dec 27, 2004, 06:00AM »

Quote from: "SchuylkillCountyBoner"
how do you know those ppl werent actually led by the will of God?? ppl wouldnt go to war just for the hell of it, God gave certain ppl the talent of interpretation! it was considered a blessing to be able to interpret, back in the old days, God would basically speak directly to some of the leaders, so to them, there was no doubt that it was from God. Unless they were schizophrenic, voices dont just appear out of nowhere


I guess this is a matter of faith and trust in that person.

What I find most difficult to understand with this, though, is that lack of these people today.  In the Old Testament, there was a plethora of people to who God spoke to directly, and these would speak to the public and lead them, or command them, or whatever.

But in recent history, any of these people who come along are mistrusted, and locked away as being madmen.  Why?  Is there a difference between the 'prophets' of today and then?  Why would be belive the 'prophets' of yesteryear, but not the ones that appear today?

Answer me honestly - if a stranger walked up to you on the street and told you that God spoke to him in a vision and told him to lead his chosen people from Chicago to the promised land of Newfounderland, what would you think?

Is there anything this man could say that would make you believe him?

Also, if you see a group of people following a man who is saying that God speaks to him, what do you think?  You hear about them in the news all the time - what is your opinion on these people?  They are, for the most part, cult leaders.  

What makes them different from those who lead people to war, following the word of God?  If they were to wage war, following the word of God, would they be 'good' or 'bad'?

For a more pressing issue, in the war on Afganistan and Iraq, which side is 'good' and which is 'bad' in the eyes of God?  Many muslim poeple have been killed, and the muslim religion follows the same God as Christianity, and part of their religion is based on the same teachings in the old testament.  If they were following their word of God, then can they be the 'bad' side.  If they are the 'good' side, then that would make the US the 'bad' side.
(I cite this as an example, and don't wish to open discussions here on that particular war, so please, no 9/11 stuff, they started it, etc.)


Again, though, we are diverting from the topic.  I really don't want this discussion to be one of the religions condemning the non-religious to a firey grave, and the non-religious saying the religious are living a lie and following a book that has no merit.

This is beginning to become a flame war, rather than an open discussion or the merits or dismerits, generically, of organised religion.

Remember, people, for the purposes of this discussion, we are assuming that God (or gods) does not exist, and all religions are, basically, false.  [I'm not saying they are, mind.]

Even if a religion is false, and God does not exist, does religion still have merit in society as a whole.  Assuming God does not exist, would the world be better off without religion?  Or better with it?

I would also like to hear from more religious people.  SchuylkillCountryBoner, thank you for your opinions on this matter.  You seem to be the only believe among us, and I pity you for having to go up against the likes of the Baron, and to a lesser extent myself.  May I suggest, however, a change in approach?

Frank, thanks for the levelheadedness as always.  You, truely, are a man whose mind is open.

Byron, maybe a bit less fire?  I think you are scaring people aware from the topic at hand.  I'm sure that even you can see some benefits to religion.  To an extent, you are a man of religion - your religion being based on good ethics, morals, logic and science.

A topic such as this is a difficult one, as there are generally two very dismetircally opposing sides who start to circle each other and try to entrap each other to the point of spiriling out of control.  The centrifugal forces caused throw others from the discussion and prevent others from coming in.

So, lets try to not let that happen and get more poeples input into the discussion.  I am truely interested in hearing what people have to say, what their reasons are, what they find good, what they find bad.

And I am sure that even the more religious among us can see some bad points to religion.  Maybe they even have insight to bad points that others don't have.  Similarly, those non-religious have to be able to see good points, and maybe even see good points that the religious do not see.


T.
Logged

1st Trombone The Essential Big Band
1st Trombone ASB
Dubbed Big T. by RHM
Baron von Bone
Fear is the Mind-Killer.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Athens, GA (USA)
Joined: Jul 16, 2002
Posts: 18421
"Reality Junkie"


View Profile
« Reply #35 on: Dec 27, 2004, 07:10AM »

Quote from: "Tomahawk"
Byron, maybe a bit less fire? I think you are scaring people aware from the topic at hand. I'm sure that even you can see some benefits to religion.

Absolutely, but I don't think there's anything about religion that's both unique to it to a significant degree, and postive. The good of religion is about community and charity and such, and those are good things about religion, of course (when they're present). But those things are also duplicated in many secular organizations.
 
The really unique (to a significant degree) aspects of religion are generaly negative, often particularly nasty.
Quote from: "Steven Weinberg (1979 Nobel Prize: Physics)"
With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. -- The New York Times, April 20, 1999

The reason I think I'm perceived as a "bringer of the flame" is that I don't give religion special treatment. When you don't change your intellectual posture to make special room for religion it doesn't hold up quite so well, and people don't generally like to see that. Fallacies start flying and emotions start hijacking intellects and things can get ugly, but for the most part, even through most of that kind of thing, you may notice I stick to the issues (generally -- sometimes I toss out intentional barbs, but they really have to have been earned).
 
Being very unpopular is just inherent to openly presenting an iconoclastic viewpoint, so, it seems, is being credited with the hostile and intellectually offensive reactions. That's perhaps most true regarding religion -- mostly the popular local religious franchises (just consider how some posters can get nasty over a skeptic of the differences between bell materials, and then amplify that accordingly for the relative emotional investment that goes into religion).
 
Quote from: "Tomahawk"
To an extent, you are a man of religion - your religion being based on good ethics, morals, logic and science.

Isn't that just re-defining religion thogh? If that falls under your definition, though, then I guess it's fair enough to call me religious.
 
Quote from: "Tomahawk"
A topic such as this is a difficult one, as there are generally two very diametircally opposing sides who start to circle each other and try to entrap each other to the point of spiriling out of control.  The centrifugal forces caused throw others from the discussion and prevent others from coming in.
 
So, lets try to not let that happen and get more poeples input into the discussion.  I am truely interested in hearing what people have to say, what their reasons are, what they find good, what they find bad.

And I am sure that even the more religious among us can see some bad points to religion.  Maybe they even have insight to bad points that others don't have.  Similarly, those non-religious have to be able to see good points, and maybe even see good points that the religious do not see.

The problem is based upon the intellectual inequity that religious people require of other in order to not perceive them as hostile. In other words, if I don't give religion all sorts of special leeway, that's perceived as hostility (largely due to how poorly religion holds up under genuine scrutiny).
 
it's the nature of the beast, basically, but people are quite welcome to ignore my posts on the matter if they don't like what I have to say about it.
 
Byron (the skeptic)
Logged

- Feeding a troll just gives it a platform and amplifies its voice.
 
- Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves.  - Richard Feynman
- He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool.   - Confucius
Steve Beck

*
Offline Offline

Location: DeWitt, MI
Joined: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 1064

View Profile
« Reply #36 on: Dec 27, 2004, 07:36AM »

Quote from: "Baron von Bone"
The reason I think I'm perceived as a "bringer of the flame" is that I don't give religion special treatment.


Maybe you even give it less "slack" than you do other irrational behaviors.  That was my perception and why I have taken issue with it at times, even though we probably agree 99% (or as much as humanly possible) on this issue.

However, the November elections have pushed me over the edge.  Previously, I felt religion was a harmless, and possibly even a socially beneficial mythology.  However, I see we really have not progressed past the crusades.
Logged
Baron von Bone
Fear is the Mind-Killer.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Athens, GA (USA)
Joined: Jul 16, 2002
Posts: 18421
"Reality Junkie"


View Profile
« Reply #37 on: Dec 27, 2004, 07:53AM »

Quote from: "Steve Beck"
Quote from: "Baron von Bone"
The reason I think I'm perceived as a "bringer of the flame" is that I don't give religion special treatment.

Maybe you even give it less "slack" than you do other irrational behaviors.  That was my perception and why I have taken issue with it at times, even though we probably agree 99% (or as much as humanly possible) on this issue.

No question about it -- I could have told you that, man! But it's not actually that I give it less intellectual or rational slack, it's that it's so prominent and enables so much nastiness. It falls under the microscope far more than most things simply because there's far more of it (just like a "universal element detector" would pick up far more hydrogen than anything else).

Quote from: "Steve Beck"
However, the November elections have pushed me over the edge.  Previously, I felt religion was a harmless, and possibly even a socially beneficial mythology.  However, I see we really have not progressed past the crusades.

That's part of our socialization -- giving religion (the local franchises) a "Get Out of Scrutiny Free" card. Some stock up apply their GOoSF cards liberally, others less so, but the cards are still in heavy use d@mn near everywhere, which is getting dangerous, actually (which mainly has to do with Islamic fundamentalism and the relatively recent development of our capacities to do ourselves in).
 
I can't recommend you read The End of Faith highly enough, man (and I'd also recommend tempering it a bit with The Authoritarian Specter -- it's pretty pricey so I'll loan you a copy if you're interested).
 
Byron (the skeptic)
Logged

- Feeding a troll just gives it a platform and amplifies its voice.
 
- Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves.  - Richard Feynman
- He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool.   - Confucius
Baron von Bone
Fear is the Mind-Killer.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Athens, GA (USA)
Joined: Jul 16, 2002
Posts: 18421
"Reality Junkie"


View Profile
« Reply #38 on: Dec 27, 2004, 07:55AM »

Duplicate.  Don't know
Logged

- Feeding a troll just gives it a platform and amplifies its voice.
 
- Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves.  - Richard Feynman
- He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool.   - Confucius
healthytrombone

*
Offline Offline

Location: Montréal, Québec
Joined: Nov 28, 2004
Posts: 88

View Profile
« Reply #39 on: Jan 01, 2005, 04:09PM »

Quote from: "Shortstuff"
Do the religious wars in the past worry anyone? "Thou shall not kill." ..... yet, more people die in the name of God or a god or gods or goddesses (hmm...there seem to be many options there....) than for any other reason in history.

wait a sec, I'm as agnostic as the next liberal, tree-hugging, gay marriage supporting, pro-choice, green party hippy, but the only wars that I can recall with ACTUAL religious reasons are the crusades.  Everything else tends to have an ulterior motive.  Maybe there is a history major around here that actually knows stuff that can further shed light.  Smoking does kill nearly 500,000 people alone in the US and I heard that those disease things (AIDS, bubonic Plague, Disco Fever, etc.) put a little dent in the populations of humans on earth.  And the only God that I can recall people killing eachother for is either Jehovah or Allah, but really mostly Jehovah aka oil conglomerates.   And the US military/secret service/cia/fbi/nsa, I heard that they kill people sometimes too...what was this forum about again?  Religion?  All that is important to me is that if you say that you're better than somebody else, you're just kind of being a dick.  The end.
~Grant
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 ... 526   Go Up
Print
Jump to: