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Author Topic: Slide Position and Valve Fingering Charts  (Read 10403 times)
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Graham Martin
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« on: Jan 22, 2005, 04:50PM »

I recently went searching for free charts showing basic slide positions for tenor trombone, and fingering for valve trombone (or baritone). In my opinion the best-illustrated charts are by United Musical Instruments. To maybe save someone doing their own search, here are the webpage references:

Tenor Trombone and Tenor Trombone with F Attachment slide positions:

http://www.veritas-online.com/edarchive/Trombone.pdf

Valve Trombone or Baritone fingering:

http://www.veritas-online.com/edarchive/Euphonium.pdf

The only fault I could find with the valve trombone fingering was that it did not show the adjustments to tuning that one normally makes - particularly the third valve slide tuner (if you have one). The best reference I could find this information was a trumpet chart:

http://library.thinkquest.org/10693/tuning.html?tqskip1=1

Unfortunately it is a chart for Bb transposing instruments in treble clef. But it would be easy to transpose (in your head) and mark the printout of the Valve Trombone fingering chart above with the necessary solutions for the tuning tendencies. For instance you could just pencil beside the third valve illustration a 1 or to show if the 3rd valve slide is kicked all the way or only half way.

It would be remiss of me not to point out that the Online Trombone Journal (OTJ) itself is a fine reference source for all trombone information, such as this information on alternate positions:

http://www.trombone.org/articles/library/outofthecase4.asp
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Grah

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« Reply #1 on: Jan 22, 2005, 04:57PM »

The slide position chart has one error; it shows fourth position instead of seventh position for low B.

I find it so weird to see position charts labelled as "fingering" charts.
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Brian

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« Reply #2 on: Jan 22, 2005, 05:56PM »

No it doesn't...
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Practicing Trombonist
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« Reply #3 on: Jan 22, 2005, 06:07PM »

Quote from: "TheFreak90"
No it doesn't...


No it doesn't what?  Have an error?  Sure it does; first page, first line of music, last note.  Low B, the number 4 is under it.

And it says "Trombone basic fingering chart" at the top of that page.

The "trombone with F-attachment" chart (the second page) is correct.
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« Reply #4 on: Jan 22, 2005, 06:28PM »

*Slaps himself* I misread and thought you said "E".

Yes it does.....
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« Reply #5 on: Jan 23, 2005, 12:18AM »

here's my reaction from the 'other' post . . .
and dig the low B in 4th position - would love to have that available Amazed  Yeah, RIGHT.
I posted a graph of the slide positions with 'normal' adjustments many times and listing all alternate positions (showing their relationships to the overtone series/partials).
Well, why don't I just post it again?
erling

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« Reply #6 on: Jan 25, 2005, 10:24AM »

It would be nice if the fingering charts for baritone included how to use the 4th valve to improve intonation.
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« Reply #7 on: Jan 25, 2005, 12:21PM »

I appreciate the inclusion of this chart in this thread.  But, I hate to admit this, but I don't understand this chart.  Would you mind elaborating?  Thanks!


Quote from: "Erling"
here's my reaction from the 'other' post . . .
and dig the low B in 4th position - would love to have that available Amazed  Yeah, RIGHT.
I posted a graph of the slide positions with 'normal' adjustments many times and listing all alternate positions (showing their relationships to the overtone series/partials).
Well, why don't I just post it again?
erling

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« Reply #8 on: Jan 25, 2005, 02:51PM »

I've graphically tried to visualize the interrelationship between the slide positions 1 thru 7 on all partials.
Take low (root) Bb's seven positions marked by the vertical slashes matching the position numbers above/below 'perfectly'. The basic positions for the seven positions.
In order to play in tune, for instance the D partial (1 - 7) which is borne flat, will have to be raised compared to the basic positions of the Bb.
There's room to do that, because Bb basic 1st position is NOT played with the slide closed all the way, but app. 1/2-1" out.
Also you can see why the hi E partial is so flat as to be unusable (non existent) because in order to BE in tune it will have to be raised (pulled in) beyond the physical limits of the totally closed 1st position.
Dig?
erling
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Graham Martin
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« Reply #9 on: Jan 25, 2005, 04:11PM »

I certainly dig, Erling.

It is actually a great way of explaining the subtle changes in position that are required for correct trombone intonation (tuning). It is showing the same thing as all the adjustments that a valve player has to make to the valve slides or by lipping up or down, as shown on the third website I originally mentioned. Isn't it great to know that the necessary adjustment is a lot easier for trombone players?! But you gotta dig Erling's graphical presentation - or automatically adjust by ear if your ear is good enough.

I would also like to underline Erling's point about tuning the trombone with first position about 1/2" out from closed - actually some people tune a lot flatter but we won't go into that right now. That 1/2" flat tuning is something that escapes most beginners and it is not even taught by many trombone teachers.  How else are you going to play a D, or maybe an F, in tune in first? Not that one should, because fourth is much better and you can also get some slide vibrato on the notes there.

BTW, I am sorry about that mistake in the position for low E in the charts I recommended. I did not notice that originally but I still think those charts are the best artwork (graphical presentation) that I have seen around the Internet. Someone should definitely let Conn/United Musical Instruments/Conn-Selmer, or whatever they call themselves these days, know about the error. Not good for a major trombone manufacturer. Yeah, RIGHT.  :shuffle:
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« Reply #10 on: Jan 26, 2005, 05:47AM »

Quote from: "Graham Martin"


It is actually a great way of   How else are you going to play a D, or maybe an F, in tune in first? Not that one should, because fourth is much better and you can also get some slide vibrato on the notes there.



It makes me wonder how many trombonists out there actually do play D above the staff in first.  The beginner books all recommend first and don't mention fourth.  I teach my students that's a typo, it should be in fourth (they've already learned low D in fourth by this time) and it makes it much easier for them to remember.  Then later, I teach them that D in first is an alternate position, only to be used in emergencies.  

Kids in school groups play lots of music in the keys of Bb and Eb, and the D in fourth is much easier due to its proximity to all the third position Eb's and C's.
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Rich Woolworth
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lanemartin
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« Reply #11 on: Jan 26, 2005, 05:47AM »

On the baritone chart, second line...the     # is shown as all three valves down when it should be 2nd and 3rd.

Thanks for that other chart, Erling.
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Erling

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« Reply #12 on: Jan 26, 2005, 12:10PM »

Hum, just one thought:
There ARE no alternate positions. Just positions. But for the sake of understanding basic position lay-out and the interrelationship, it's easier to distinguish by having 'them and the others'.
In music the choice of WHICH positions to use is a combination of
1) Key, musical content. I.e. in the key of Bb or Eb the D natural in 4th is the basic position because of slidemovement efficiency. C in 3rd, D in 4th, Eb in 3rd. - Shortest, least awkward movement, most smooth/fluent slide movement i general is what we aim for.
2) Sound. The inherent sound of, say again D, in 1st, 4th or 7th position are vastly different from each other (can and should be able to approximate sameness when THAT is needed) and can be utilized to great musical effect.
3) Phrasing. Depending of the kind of phrasing we want/the music demands in a given situation.

I choose the 'tool' (position/combination of positions) from the musical context/my personal tastes. Sometimes I'm asked: Why do you use THOSE positions there? And I answer: 1) 2) or 3) - one or all.
As an example: In many of my own compositions featuring the trombone as a solo instrument, carrying the melody if played by someone else (personality aside) they wouldn't necessarily come up with the same choices for slide-positions and the phrasing/sound of the melody would suffer (from the intended sound). So when I have someone else playing my songs, I'll have to tell them HOW to go about it to create the intended sound of the melodic flow.

A in 6th? often. Around middle Bb. A in 4th octave above? often. G in 4th or 6th up there? often. Hi Bb in 3rd (it is luckily on my Conns and Bach 36, but non-existent on a Bach 12, maybe even 16, Grah) very often. In 5th? often.
All depending on the musical context.

Just to give a few examples. We basically need to use/command 85% of all available positions. 'Cause that's what they are: available positions.

Learning about it? Classify as basic and alternate. Part of the learning process. But not part of the musical process.

erling
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« Reply #13 on: Jan 27, 2005, 03:44PM »

Quote from: "Woolworth"
  It makes me wonder how many trombonists out there actually do play D above the staff in first.


I do. :shuffle:
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« Reply #14 on: Jan 27, 2005, 08:25PM »

Quote from: "lanemartin"
On the baritone chart, second line...the     # is shown as all three valves down when it should be 2nd and 3rd.

Thanks for that other chart, Erling.


I don't particulary care for that fingering chart and ofcourse the oops note. You would think that somebody would make sure that's there's no typos   Bad dog.  No Biscuits. . In addition to putting the 4th valve fingerings,  I would also include the alternate fingerings of using 3rd valve instead 1 2 for intonation purposes on some euphs and the alternate for the mid register (esp. D 1 2 or 3) for ease of playing on some passages.

On trombone, I tend to play mid D in slight flat 4 more often than in 1st. I also tend to play  F (the one above the bass clef) in #4 more than the 1b or  whatever its technically called.

My problems has been playing with some other trombone players (sadly this includes some university players) who don't know about the other positions (often called alternate positions). They just don't know they exist and just seeing a lot of excess slide movement where its not all that necessary.

 And the problems exists if you have a band instructor whos a trombone player and hears a clash in the trombone section. I remember a few times in concert band which I played trombone for this one semester, the band instructor kept getting after the other trombone player and myself when we played Moorside Suite (The march one) at that one famous start starts on a F which you had to play F in #4 to have a chance to play it in tune.
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Graham Martin
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« Reply #15 on: Jan 27, 2005, 08:43PM »

Quote from: "bluenite"
My problems has been playing with some other trombone players (sadly this includes some university players) who don't know about the other positions (often called alternate positions).


You are quite right, they are often called 'alternate' positions! But I don't think that is the correct word and they really should be called 'alternative' positions. Clever ;-)
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« Reply #16 on: Jan 28, 2005, 04:09AM »

Like my teacher said, way back in the early sixties: "The seven positions? There are not seven, there are seventy-two!"
Truth be told I never counted them :shuffle:
Fact of the matter?
Each note has is own unique position depending on the harmonic/melodic context also. Not just x position, but x(+-). Is it a third? out it goes, is it a fifth? a root? and on and on. . . .
erling
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« Reply #17 on: Jan 28, 2005, 05:19AM »

Quote from: "Erling"
Like my teacher said, way back in the early sixties: "The seven positions? There are not seven, there are seventy-two!"


Wrong.  There are eight.

1. In
2. Out
3. Further out
4. Way out
5. Way way out
6. Pretty far out
7. Far out, man!
8. #%@&&@!!!
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Rich Woolworth
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« Reply #18 on: Jan 28, 2005, 05:30AM »

Quote from: "Woolworth"
Wrong.  There are eight.


I use 14.

1st, but too far in
1st, but too far out
2nd, but too far in
2nd, but too far out
...
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« Reply #19 on: Jan 28, 2005, 06:48AM »

"Put your right hand in, put your right hand out,
Put your right hand in and wave it all about........"
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