Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1097252 Posts in 72498 Topics- by 19558 Members - Latest Member: Shinbone021401
Jump to:  
Pages: [1]   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: alternate positions  (Read 5376 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
« on: Dec 23, 2003, 12:44PM »

the only alternate positions i know of are
1 or 6 for an F  (middle)
2 or 6 for an A   (middle)
1 or 5 for a Bb (middle)
and
1 or 4 for a D   (high)

are there any more alternate positions i should know about??
Logged
harmonslide
formerly tbone stakes

*
Offline Offline

Location: Akron, OH
Joined: Oct 3, 2002
Posts: 3697

View Profile
« Reply #1 on: Dec 23, 2003, 01:31PM »

Bunches! Especially in the upper ranges. Up there you can sometimes play a note in four or more different positions.

A few fairly useful ones are:

       (octave above) in 4th

    b:space3: (octave above) in 6th

Other ones exist too--you can use ones you know as a guide. Since you know a D can be in fourth (although it's a slightly long fourth), a Db (aka C#) can be played in a slightly long fifth. I think the Arban's trombone method has a chart that shows each position and the notes available in it. Also, I'm pretty sure there's some charts online.

Alternate positions can be a bit tricky. They aren't all exactly in a position--some are a bit different. Such as the D in fourth. That whole harmonic, partial, or whatever it's term is, is slightly sharp, thus you must make a slight adjustment and play it in a bit longer fourth. A tuner or your ear can be used to compare 'traditional' positions and alternates.
Logged
tony adams
*
Offline Offline

Location: portland, oregon
Joined: Apr 3, 2003
Posts: 81

View Profile
« Reply #2 on: Dec 23, 2003, 01:40PM »

There are many!
7th position E, b4th for B natural, 6th C/F/A, etc...

There are many alternate position guides, from the chart in the Arban's book to method books. Have fun and try to find as many as you can!
Logged
Brandon Natelli
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
Joined: Sep 6, 2003
Posts: 1304

View Profile WWW
« Reply #3 on: Dec 23, 2003, 02:45PM »

You need to learn to think in what I call chromatics.  It reveals every positon.  Start with something you know.  Like say F in first.  Now every positon is a half step.  So if you wanted F in first and wanted to go up a half step it can the g flat would like it a very very flat seventh.  But in sixth it lies in fifth.  Understand?  Just experiment with this idea!  Use a tuner for help.
Logged

"He was not liked, but they learned to fear him." -Jacques Manheit on Gustav Mahler
Doc Strait
*
Offline Offline

Location: West Michigan
Joined: Oct 14, 2002
Posts: 122

View Profile
« Reply #4 on: Dec 26, 2003, 06:17AM »

As you learn the various alternate positions you will then be perplexed with, what position do I use for the note?  The simpliest answer can be found when you think of the "Economy of Motion" as my private intructor says.  The note you are playing is a 2nd ledger (above the staff) E flat and your next note is the F above it.  The F is followed by a 1st ledger line C above the staff.  It make more economic sense to move one positin, to fourth, and then back to third for the C than it is to go two positions to 1st and back.  In other words, you want to save on the motion and use the position that is best suited and will require the least amount of movement.  Keep in mind what position you will pick depends on how well you can play the notes in tune when using alternate positions.  Examine the phrase and see where the alternates will best work.  Practice it the various was and then decide.

 
quote:
Originally posted by victor:
the only alternate positions i know of are
1 or 6 for an F  (middle)
2 or 6 for an A   (middle)
1 or 5 for a Bb (middle)
and
1 or 4 for a D   (high)

are there any more alternate positions i should know about??

Logged

Gabriel may play Trumpet but GOD plays Trombone!

Doc Strait
Bass Trombone
Scottville Clown Band &
West Michigan Concert Winds
tetley
*
Offline Offline

Location: Austin, TX
Joined: Aug 2, 2003
Posts: 20

View Profile
« Reply #5 on: Jan 04, 2004, 05:56AM »

If you have an F attachment, you can play low Bb in 8th position, a.k.a. trigger-3rd.  Good if you have fast licks in the lower registers.
Logged

Fight Chicken Abortion!  Boycott Eggs!
Joe_Guarr

*
Offline Offline

Location: East Lansing, MI
Joined: May 7, 2002
Posts: 3279

View Profile WWW
« Reply #6 on: Jan 04, 2004, 10:20PM »

quote:
Originally posted by tetley:
If you have an F attachment, you can play low Bb in 8th position, a.k.a. trigger-3rd.  Good if you have fast licks in the lower registers.

Yeah, the trigger opens up an entirely new world of alternate positions, as Lew Gillis' book is teaching me.
Logged

Joe Guarr
--------------------
"Life without music is a mistake." --Nietzsche
boreifs
*
Offline Offline

Location: Wisconsin
Joined: Jul 3, 2002
Posts: 128

View Profile
« Reply #7 on: Jan 04, 2004, 06:12PM »

The larger question is not which alternate positions to use, but why you use them.  I have always felt that there was only one alternate position that was a legitimate "sound" alternative, the 4th position "D", which is an ideal sound if that D happens to be the fifth of the chord.  It can also be used effectively in passages like the Mahler Third solo, where a "darker" D sound is quite appropriate in the second solo.  
   It certainly makes sense that the best sound is going to be produced in the normal position.  After all, it is a lower harmonic, and there is a reason why it is the "normal" one.  Therefore, alternates are best used as technical devices, particularly for natural slurs in fast passages.  The opening of the Barat "Andante et Allegro" is probably the most famous passage illustrating that use; Frank Martin actually wrote in alternates in his "Ballade" to achieve the same "natural" slur in several instances.
    This is, however, not a universal opinion.  It is my understanding that Frank Crisafulli was very high on using alternate positions whenever they made the passage easier, and just expected his students to produce a good sound whether it was a natural or alternate position. Certainly a fine trombonist should be expected to produce a good sound all of the time, regardless of whether it is a natural or alternate position.  Personally, I'm lazy with my sound, but industrious with my slide, because I will do almost anything to use the normal position in a slow, melodic passage where sound is the most important consideration.
Logged
timothy42b
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colonial Heights, Virginia, US
Joined: Dec 7, 2000
Posts: 12678

View Profile
« Reply #8 on: Jan 04, 2004, 09:27PM »

One approach is to relate positions to scales.  

Each scale will have a different set of "normal" positions.

For example, playing in five or six flats (whatever scale that is <grin>) you are out past the bell anyway, better to just stay there.  You are playing Db and Gb in fifth, play the Bb, Db, and Gb above that in fifth too.  Play middle C in sixth then.  

Basically you work out for every major scale what the most efficient positions are, and then they become the normal positions for that scale only.  

Somewhere there is a set of recommended positions for each scale.  

I know that there are those who feel they get the best sound in the inner positions.  I agree with getting good sound but I think with a little work the longer positions sound just as good.  Otherwise we wouldn't be able to play B nat in 7th, would we?  

I admit I use more slide motion than I would have to, but I am a fan of natural slurs and will use an awkward slide motion to get one whenever possible, rather than using an awkward slide motion to get a supposedly better sounding note.
Logged

Tim Richardson
tetley
*
Offline Offline

Location: Austin, TX
Joined: Aug 2, 2003
Posts: 20

View Profile
« Reply #9 on: Jan 05, 2004, 11:08AM »

It just takes a good diaphragm and a good ear to get the alternates to sound as good as the "regular".  I tend to go alternate on all the 1st position notes, because my band likes to go sharp a lot.    
Logged

Fight Chicken Abortion!  Boycott Eggs!
Pages: [1]   Go Up
Print
Jump to: