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Question: Is your 3rd partial F in tune?  (Voting closed: Jan 15, 2006, 05:19PM)
It is right in tune - 4 (17.4%)
It is sharp (I extend the slide to get it in tune) - 17 (73.9%)
It is flat - 2 (8.7%)
It is sharp on some of my horns but flat on others - 0 (0%)
Total Voters: 21

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David Gross
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« on: Jan 15, 2006, 05:19PM »

The 3rd partial F is not quite in tune on most horns. How is it on your horn(s)? Yes, you play that note in perfect tune (don't we all?)! But if you were to tune the horn so that Bb is exactly right in closed 1st position, how does the F sound in closed 1st position?
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Steve

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« Reply #1 on: Jan 15, 2006, 05:43PM »

i don't have a single horn, personal or governent owned, that does not have to have the slide out a bit to have that note in tune.
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VoodooChild42
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« Reply #2 on: Jan 15, 2006, 06:37PM »

Mine's flat but after i get my top braces off my tuning is gonna change again. We'll see how it is this thursday.
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« Reply #3 on: Jan 15, 2006, 11:44PM »

What kind of tuning are you refering to? Don't know
Is it the "perfect fifth"? in that case all trombones are always tuned right on in completely closed 1st position Clever .
If you want the "well tempered fifth" than you should take out the slide a little,  Evil (unless your lips are flexible enough to lower the pitch).

I, for one am trying to listen to the other players around me in order to know if I am in tune. Sometimes I need to close the slide all the way and sometimes I need to take it a little out.
I try not to be fixed on a single way of playing but relay on listening.
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« Reply #4 on: Jan 16, 2006, 03:26AM »

ok, i'll clarify...
the third partial F on all of my horns, especially my 88H, is very sharp against a tuner. of course I always rely on my ear, and I am well aware of equal tempered tuning vs pure harmony..
however... brass instruments are imperfect...
some notes are out of tune because of the natural tendencies of the overtone series (like the notorious seventh partial) and others are out of tune because of the quirks of the instrument.
you must know the tendencies of your particular instruments as well as those inherent to the overtone series in general.
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Is it the "perfect fifth"? in that case all trombones are always tuned right on in completely closed 1st position  
.
oh how i wish this were true, but it doesn't seem to be the case
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« Reply #5 on: Jan 16, 2006, 07:07AM »

Mine's sharp. Actually, I guess I should say all four are sharp. The least sharp is the Olds Super, the most sharp is the Bundy. I was under the impression that this was part of the dynamics of brass instruments, and that the third, fifth, and sixth partials were always a little sharp, like the seventh is way flat. Just the way the tubes go, something like that.
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David Gross
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« Reply #6 on: Jan 16, 2006, 07:15AM »

Put the wrong mouthpiece in the horn and even the B flats in the various octaves can be out of tune with each other. If you take a close look at "brass instrument acoustics" you find that all brass instruments are very far from the idealized organ pipe you learned about in your physics class. If the partials on your horn are in tune with each other it is only because the trombone designer did an amazing job. Organ pipe theory says the 3rd partial will be a perfect 5th but organ pipe theory is almost irrelevant to a brass instrument with a conical bell.
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« Reply #7 on: Jan 16, 2006, 07:49AM »

My Yamaha YSL-841 (a not too common instrument from between '82 and '84) is almost bang on the button amazingly (with a Rath L6.5). Close enough to get away with in most circumstances.  My bass (YBL-312 with Bach 2G) is a bit sharp. My new Rath R10 hasn't been fully tested yet. It feels pretty good, though. I just started on it yesterday and still haven't finalise the mouthpiece, probaby a Mt Vernon 11C.
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« Reply #8 on: Feb 12, 2016, 06:55AM »

Glad to know it is not just me
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« Reply #9 on: Feb 12, 2016, 07:33AM »

i extend my slide to get every note in tune, not just the F. 

nothing is in dead 1st. i like my teeth too much.

What kind of tuning are you refering to? Don't know
Is it the "perfect fifth"? in that case all trombones are always tuned right on in completely closed 1st position Clever .

not quite true, Erv, or every tbn would have that note in the exact same place. Besides, there is more than one tuning system that isn't "well tempered."  How the horn is constructed has a lot to do with where the notes line up - hence why on a shires you don't have to adjust positions near as much, and why on my king 2Bs every D above middle C is in a different spot (it's sharp on two, flat on the third.)

Put the wrong mouthpiece in the horn and even the B flats in the various octaves can be out of tune with each other. If you take a close look at "brass instrument acoustics" you find that all brass instruments are very far from the idealized organ pipe you learned about in your physics class. If the partials on your horn are in tune with each other it is only because the trombone designer did an amazing job. Organ pipe theory says the 3rd partial will be a perfect 5th but organ pipe theory is almost irrelevant to a brass instrument with a conical bell.
thanks for posting that, David.



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« Reply #10 on: Feb 13, 2016, 06:54AM »

i extend my slide to get every note in tune, not just the F. 

nothing is in dead 1st. i like my teeth too much.

This is why I like slides with springs.  I know they are really just a crutch, but I like them anyway.
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« Reply #11 on: Feb 28, 2016, 02:49AM »

What kind of tuning are you refering to? Don't know
Is it the "perfect fifth"? in that case all trombones are always tuned right on in completely closed 1st position Clever .
If you want the "well tempered fifth" than you should take out the slide a little,  Evil (unless your lips are flexible enough to lower the pitch).

I, for one am trying to listen to the other players around me in order to know if I am in tune. Sometimes I need to close the slide all the way and sometimes I need to take it a little out.
I try not to be fixed on a single way of playing but relay on listening.
It is a good idea to have the slide out a bit for the Bb so you can tune to the surounding enviroment.  Good!

The overtoneseries vs the partials in brass instruments does not behave the same way. The overtoneseries are allways tuned the same way, the partials in a trombone line up in different ways depending on the tubing, a mix of cylindrically and conically bore. And the difference in welltempered and perfect fifth is only two cents, the sharpness in some trombones 3rd partial can be much more then that, and in some (very few modern trombones) cases the 3rd partial is very flatt.
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« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2016, 04:12PM »

It is a good idea to have the slide out a bit for the Bb so you can tune to the surrounding environment. 

This is the approach I subscribe to.  In a brass band I play in the conductor (a baritone horn player) sometimes walks around with a tuner and asks me to play a note by myself - usually a Bb but sometimes notes in other positions. My first position is about a thumb-width off the bumper but he presumes it's against the bumpers. The pitch I produce is a result of the thumb-width and whatever pitch is in my head. Sometimes I pretend to move my tuning slide to align myself better with the tuner, knowing that it works fine when playing with the band..

I've been wondering lately if I should just tell him about the thumb width and that he should just trust trombones to play in tune with what's around them. The risk is that some (non-trombonists) might consider this "unorthodox" approach to be idiocy.

Dave





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robcat2075

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« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2016, 06:54PM »

What kind of tuning are you refering to? Don't know
Is it the "perfect fifth"? in that case all trombones are always tuned right on in completely closed 1st position Clever .

Certainly not true on all trombones. Probably not true on most brass instruments


Quote
If you want the "well tempered fifth" than you should take out the slide a little,  Evil (unless your lips are flexible enough to lower the pitch).

The difference between a perfect ratio fifth and a equal tempered fifth is less than two cents which is smaller than most people can quickly discern in real life music making circumstances.

The error between 1st position Bb and F is greater than that, on my horn, anyway. There is no tuning or temperament where they can both use the exact same slide position and be in tune.
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Robert Holmén

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« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2016, 08:30PM »

Certainly not true on all trombones.

It's as untrue now as it was a decade ago. :)

A straight pipe doesn't even have any even partials.  Sticking a horn on the end telescopes the series down into something that's close to harmonic.  It's kind of amazing that it works as well as it does.

At the extreme, the first partial of a B-flat trumpet or trombone is something like E-flat, as best I recall.  It's why the pedals are so strange.
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« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2016, 08:47PM »

I like to tune my D above the staff to a closed 1st position.  Everything else is extended somewhat in 1st.
My f attachment I tune my F below the staff almost to a closed 1st position and everything else is somewhat extended.
Seems to work for me.
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« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2016, 09:03PM »

It's as untrue now as it was a decade ago. :)

A straight pipe doesn't even have any even partials.  Sticking a horn on the end telescopes the series down into something that's close to harmonic.  It's kind of amazing that it works as well as it does.

At the extreme, the first partial of a B-flat trumpet or trombone is something like E-flat, as best I recall.  It's why the pedals are so strange.

If I take the outer slide off and play just the top inner slide, it has distinct partials.
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« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2016, 08:57AM »

not quite true, Erv, or every tbn would have that note in the exact same place. Besides, there is more than one tuning system that isn't "well tempered." 

Not to mention the plethora of historical and modern temperaments that could fall under the "well tempered" designation!

And the difference in welltempered and perfect fifth is only two cents, the sharpness in some trombones 3rd partial can be much more then that, and in some (very few modern trombones) cases the 3rd partial is very flatt.

Perhaps it is a translational misnomer, but the terms "welltempered" and "equal tempered" should not be interchanged so freely. Equal temperament is a type of well temperament, but there are many well temperaments that are far from equal. There was confusion between the "well" and "good temperaments" as far back as the late 1600s. Good, well, circulating; all terms that mean generally the same thing but have certain historical implications. Perfect fifths in some of the "well" temperaments are three times as bad as those in equal temperament, falling 6 cents from pure.

The difference between a perfect ratio fifth and a equal tempered fifth is less than two cents which is smaller than most people can quickly discern in real life music making circumstances.

The error between 1st position Bb and F is greater than that, on my horn, anyway. There is no tuning or temperament where they can both use the exact same slide position and be in tune.

Could you make a rough guess of just how sharp the F is in the same slide position? Depending on how far it deviates, it could feasibly match up with some of the more peculiar French temperaments that utilize wolf-trisection to achieve circularity. They have characteristic wide fifths and narrow fourths on a portion of the flat side of the circle from C-F-Bb-Eb.
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« Reply #18 on: Jun 03, 2016, 01:07PM »



The overtoneseries vs the partials in brass instruments does not behave the same way. The overtoneseries are allways tuned the same way, the partials in a trombone line up in different ways depending on the tubing, a mix of cylindrically and conically bore.

Yes.  This bears repeating because it's so widely misunderstood.  Overtones (the frequencies above a given note you are playing) are not the same thing as partials (the different notes you can play in a given position.) 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #19 on: Jun 03, 2016, 03:23PM »

Don't tell the piano tuners, they make their living on concurrent partials Evil

I think you will find that the use of 'partials' as a term relative to playing an instrument is a very brass-centric phenomenon. Traditionally, a 'partial', is any single sine-wave constituent of a complex waveform. Partials are the fundamental unit of Fourier analysis. In this sense, referring to the "3rd Partial F" in the context of a Bb instrument, would be referring to the specific sine wave whose frequency equates to F within the total spectrum of the fundamental note Bb. 

As if this is making it simpler  Pant
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