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The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentMouthpieces(Moderators: BGuttman, Doug Elliott) Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
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Author Topic: Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??  (Read 342427 times)
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« Reply #1460 on: Apr 08, 2016, 03:25PM »

Why do you wish that? 

Because it makes the sound I want to make.
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« Reply #1461 on: Apr 08, 2016, 03:33PM »

Because it makes the sound I want to make.

Ok.  That's what I thought you meant but I often read advice on here about going with the mouthpiece (or any equipment in general) that makes it easier for you to make the sound in your head.

So, it seems you are going for the equipment that makes it easier for you to do the work, even if you don't prefer the quality* of that work?

* Quality as defined as: a characteristic or feature that someone or something has

 
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« Reply #1462 on: Apr 08, 2016, 05:31PM »

Great post.  Too bad it's going to disappear shortly when the new forum comes up.  Chris, why don't you save a copy and repost this after the new forum is up and running?

P.S.  I also play a Bach 1.5G on my bass


Hahahahaa!!!!! Third or fourth post on this thread. Dated 2006.
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« Reply #1463 on: Apr 08, 2016, 05:36PM »

Ok.  That's what I thought you meant but I often read advice on here about going with the mouthpiece (or any equipment in general) that makes it easier for you to make the sound in your head.

So, it seems you are going for the equipment that makes it easier for you to do the work, even if you don't prefer the quality* of that work?

* Quality as defined as: a characteristic or feature that someone or something has

 

Before going on, I want to answer Dan Hine in another tread......

Leif
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« Reply #1464 on: Apr 08, 2016, 06:33PM »

I think Chris has been at this long enough to know what he wants to sound like.  He also has kept his job, so what he wants to sound like apparently is what the people paying for his services want him to sound like.

If that means playing a Bach 25 tuba mouthpiece or a 12C, as long as he gets the sound he needs that's what has to happen.

Most of us do well on a 1 1/2G, thankyouverymuch.  It is a bass trombone standard for a reason.
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« Reply #1465 on: Apr 08, 2016, 06:37PM »

I think Chris has been at this long enough to know what he wants to sound like. 

I'm absolutely certain you are right.  My post(s) had no malicious or snarky intent behind them.  I don't think there was anything wrong with me asking for clarification.

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« Reply #1466 on: Apr 08, 2016, 06:40PM »

so what he wants to sound like apparently is what the people paying for his services want him to sound like.


Well, from his responses it seems more like what he chooses to sound like is different from what he wants to sound like.  Again, that's why I asked.
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« Reply #1467 on: Apr 08, 2016, 09:14PM »

Age is a journey. During his interview with Michael Davis, Charles Vernon lamented the fact that he had to double tongue parts he used to easily single tongue. We do what we must do. Sometimes I think, 'The sound in my head', is the icing on the cake that comes after the the other things like in time, in tune,  with acceptable articulation and clarity.
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« Reply #1468 on: Apr 08, 2016, 09:47PM »

It seems to me that Dan has asked a fair and respectful question.  Chris has stated that his current mouthpiece choice involves some degree of compromise (I suspect it is only a very small degree).  Compromise is a topic on which it is very interesting and educational to hear the words of an experienced, highly successful player.  Everything we do constitutes some kind of compromise or other.
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« Reply #1469 on: Apr 09, 2016, 01:21AM »

I think Chris has been at this long enough to know what he wants to sound like. 

Most of us do well on a 1 1/2G, thankyouverymuch.  It is a bass trombone standard for a reason.
       When I went from tenor to bass 1969 all bass players played 1 1/2G in Sweden. Today everybody play 1 1/4G or bigger, most of them bigger. In 1969 many tenor players played 12 c even in orchestras, today 7c is a small alto piece. Modern Europeans have big mouths?
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« Reply #1470 on: Apr 09, 2016, 01:50AM »

It seems to me that Dan has asked a fair and respectful question.  Chris has stated that his current mouthpiece choice involves some degree of compromise (I suspect it is only a very small degree).  Compromise is a topic on which it is very interesting and educational to hear the words of an experienced, highly successful player.  Everything we do constitutes some kind of compromise or other.

Yes, I took Dan's question as fair and respectful. It also is probably of some interest to younger players trying to develop a sound and people that play for fun and want to do it well. Sound ideals can change and we all try to fit in with modern concepts to an extent, but my primary drive is to try and play in tune, in time and with a sound that works in the job I do. When I changed onto big gear a few years back, it was because I had some contra work coming up and hoped that I might get away with using an almost contra size mouthpiece on bass for a week or two.... well, when I switched, nobody noticed (all Elliott stuff) and playing life got easier... so I stuck with it. I can hear a difference here and there, but to others, I just sound like me... so it is a small thing. There are times when you think about where your sound is... listening to recordings, and listening to other players. I recently was on the judging panel for one of the ITF competitions which involved me listening to thirty recorded performances. I found it quite disturbing that so many young players were obviously playing on equipment they could not handle... big woofy sounds, unstable, hollow tone and poor intonation.... where did they get those ideas from ? The best players were more compact and stable... and MADE MUSIC. I made a mental note to keep an ear out so as not to fall into any of those traps myself. I still have the 1 1/2G in my head, just not on my face at the moment.

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #1471 on: Apr 09, 2016, 02:05AM »

" big woofy sounds, unstable, hollow tone and poor intonation" yes that is pretty common nowadays.....
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« Reply #1472 on: Apr 09, 2016, 03:34AM »

" big woofy sounds, unstable, hollow tone and poor intonation" yes that is pretty common nowadays.....

It is, and I think it is partly about young people buying and playing instruments designed to work in big orchestras playing in big halls, and teachers who have never worked in professional ensembles perpetuating myths about sound that have no place in reality.

It seems to be damaging the bass trombone in particular.

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #1473 on: Apr 09, 2016, 06:45AM »

^that is the Texas sound in a nutshell I believe...
But the great players here move past that. A lot of students get stuck in that stage and never get past it.
Just clarifying: not all the players here in Texas sound bad!
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« Reply #1474 on: Apr 09, 2016, 07:39AM »

It's not just Texas..... I can't even begin to tell you the number of HS/College players who have come for a lesson over the years that were swimming in equipment that was way too big for them. When asked why, nearly every explanation included the term "...my band director....".
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« Reply #1475 on: Apr 09, 2016, 08:39AM »

Gotcha Mr. Van Schaik.
In my area the high school bass trombone that kids start on... Double Thayer Edwards with a dual bore slide. The mouthpiece that is stocked with it... A Schilke 60.
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« Reply #1476 on: Apr 09, 2016, 11:05AM »

This "too big equipment" syndrome at the middle school/high school level has a great deal to do with the way young players sound badly. (Plus of course the trend in U.S. music education to produce...to pass and certify w/a diploma...pretty much anybody whose checks clear and doesn't totally mess up in some serious way at school.)

Most beginners tend to get a "nasty" sound, especially at volume. These numbnuts instructors want their bands to sound the least ugly that they can possibly sound. It's good for their jobs if not their students. Tubby-sounding equipment sounds less ugly...less aggressivelyugly...in the hands of bad players than does smaller stuff. Instead of "Wrack wrack wrack" it"Woof woof woof." Plus...the instrument makers hype larger equipment because most orchestral players play it and hey can charge more for it.

So there y'are...20, 30, 40 years later? It's a style!!!

So it goes.

S.
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« Reply #1477 on: Apr 09, 2016, 01:37PM »

Yup.  And the bass trombone players squawk every time the music goes above the bass clef because they can't play it in tune. ;-)

I also like the trumpet player BDs who figure that a 1C is a great trumpet mouthpiece, so a 1G must work great for trombone Evil

I played a 1 1/2 G for years before moving to anything larger.  I still don't play a 1G or Schilke 60 although my Doug Elliott setup is similar in size (maybe I'm playing a Yeo without realizing it).  I still go back to the 1 1/2 G when I haven't played bass trombone for a while.
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« Reply #1478 on: Apr 12, 2016, 08:03AM »

...
 well, when I switched, nobody noticed (all Elliott stuff) and playing life got easier... so I stuck with it. I can hear a difference here and there, but to others, I just sound like me... so it is a small thing.
...
This for me is why I still play Doug's pieces.  Just makes life easier.  Responds the way I want (and the way my chops think they should respond).

I still sink money into other mouthpieces, but man I can still resist some of them some times.  But that Mr. Bassbone piece from Noah is calling me.  It just looks so pretty.

Back on topic, I recently picked up a slightly modified Mt.Vernon 1 1/2G.  Interesting sound to this piece...  But it is by far the most unforgiving piece I have ever played.  Sounds great when I am on point, but if I stray just a bit.. I'm in wounded duck territory.  This, I believe is greatly due to the rim shape (which was the modification on this piece).  I'll have to be a lot stronger of a player than I am currently to get away with that.

Cheers,
Andy
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« Reply #1479 on: Apr 12, 2016, 09:01AM »

This "too big equipment" syndrome at the middle school/high school level has a great deal to do with the way young players sound badly. (Plus of course the trend in U.S. music education to produce...to pass and certify w/a diploma...pretty much anybody whose checks clear and doesn't totally mess up in some serious way at school.)

Most beginners tend to get a "nasty" sound, especially at volume. These numbnuts instructors want their bands to sound the least ugly that they can possibly sound. It's good for their jobs if not their students. Tubby-sounding equipment sounds less ugly...less aggressivelyugly...in the hands of bad players than does smaller stuff. Instead of "Wrack wrack wrack" it"Woof woof woof." Plus...the instrument makers hype larger equipment because most orchestral players play it and hey can charge more for it.

So there y'are...20, 30, 40 years later? It's a style!!!

So it goes.

S.

Sad but true, and add in being taught by non-trombonists which leads to "slide position amnesia".. 
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