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The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentMouthpieces(Moderators: BGuttman, Doug Elliott) Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
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Matt K

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« Reply #1500 on: Sep 15, 2016, 04:09PM »

I've had similar good experiences with pieces that go in a touch further than the normal 1". Makes me wonder if it wouldn't behoove me to get some Reeves sleeves and try some varying insertion depths. Or get some shaved down and use the teflon trick.  New rabbit hole...
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« Reply #1501 on: Sep 17, 2016, 12:45AM »

It's very interesting.... I thought my Elliotts had brought the mouthpiece game to an end... for me they totally work... I don't have to think about the mouthpiece element at all with them.
Now I pick up this old 1 1/2G that is a revelation to play... HOW is it so good ???? I cannot see any reason, but I will say this... the shank has been shaved down a little so it goes in more than usual... if I build up the shank so it sticks out the normal amount it is less impressive.... tiny details....
I have been checking other mouthpieces that I own and find that 2Gs are smaller in the throat than 1 1/2Gs, even though the catalog says they are the same....

Chris Stearn

Interesting thing about throatsize, Chris !  , according to the catalogue the same throat,backbore are used on a 6 1/2A through to the
1  1/4G .. The logic would be to adapt the throat/ backbore to match the cup/ rim...  I find  that the standard  backbore on the 1 1/2G  corporation blows to tight and will not let the sound bloom ( especially on my Holton).. I guess that they needed to cut down on productioncosts by simplifying..  On the other hand , modern makers (with the exception of  Doug Elliott ) insist on very open throats and backbores in comparison.. This will of course make them more easy to play, but may loose  the magic compared to the Mount Vernons.. Maybe the answer would be to experiment with smaller, more subtle changes in rim shape, throats and backbores with a standard Bach 1 1/2G as model , I dont know ? 

Trond

PS !  The Yamaha 58 which i use now has a slightly bigger throat/ backbore than a 2G which i think is balanced out with a slightly more heavy blank.. Small incremental changes , which maintain the generic 2G sound, but makes life easier  Good!


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« Reply #1502 on: Sep 17, 2016, 01:03AM »

Well Trond, these things are never simple...
It seems to me that although Bach said that bores and backbores through most of the 'G' series were the same, they did in fact change... or is it just the 2G that was different ?
Free blowing is not a simple relationship with physical properties... my new 1 1/2G seems to have a smaller throat and backbore yet blows more freely than other examples with bigger bores and backbores, especially in the low register.  That seems to defy logic, but it is what it is.

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #1503 on: Sep 17, 2016, 02:26AM »

Quote
the shank has been shaved down a little so it goes in more than usual...


Funny, In the late 70s I was foling around with different mpc:s, George Strucel helped me with different ideas, (some really crazy.) George told me about what George Roberts wanted him to do, he (GR) brought 5 Bach 1 1/2G mpc and asked GC to shave the all down a bit. When GR came back for the mpc:s he payed and tried all 5, he chosed one and through the other 4 in the vastebasket. As you probably know the George Roberts mothpieces has a thinner shank, goes further in to the leadpipe.
George made the same shank shaving for me, I played the piece for some years, it was a good piece. But latter I moved to a bit larger rim.
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« Reply #1504 on: Sep 17, 2016, 02:54AM »


Funny, In the late 70s I was foling around with different mpc:s, George Strucel helped me with different ideas, (some really crazy.) George told me about what George Roberts wanted him to do, he (GR) brought 5 Bach 1 1/2G mpc and asked GC to shave the all down a bit. When GR came back for the mpc:s he payed and tried all 5, he chosed one and through the other 4 in the vastebasket. As you probably know the George Roberts mothpieces has a thinner shank, goes further in to the leadpipe.
George made the same shank shaving for me, I played the piece for some years, it was a good piece. But latter I moved to a bit larger rim.

Thank you Svenne for that interesting and important post. I have shaved shanks down in the past myself. Sam Burtis swears by it. Sometimes there is a big change, other times hardly anything. Those Roberts sig mouthpieces made in LA went in more than usual.... I would not want to risk spoiling a Mt Vernon piece but this one came ready shaved. It is perfect for my Holton.... pure luck I think.

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #1505 on: Sep 17, 2016, 08:18AM »

Interesting post Svenne, I love to listen about George Roberts! Now, lets hope we all keep our "right mind" and dont shave down the shank on all our mouthpieces  :D I dont dear to do anything with mine. I did it once and never again.

As many say, the bach catalog is not to trust about measurement. My MT Vernon 1 1&2g have a slightly bigger throat than my regular 1 1&2g. And the MT Vernon 2g I sold had about the same hole as my MT Vernon 1 1&2g.

Trond, why do you like bigger throats? Is it really better or easier? My experience is not always so, but I cant say I know much about it? In fact I like more smaller throats, but as told, I dont really know about throat design.

Leif
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« Reply #1506 on: Sep 17, 2016, 08:40AM »

I have heared that the GR leadpipe that George consistently used  throughout his career , had the venturi closer to the end of the shank and a a tighter venturi /bigger expansion meaning that shaving down the shank makes the transition between the mouthpiece and the leadpipe smoother.. Just an idea....
About going smaller in the throat/backbore still making a more open blow.. Maybe the feel of the blow has more to do with resonance and how much sound You can put out from a given amount of air , than how much air You can physically push through the horn.. In other words ; more compression  in the throat/backbore  can produce subjectively  a  feeling of more sound output which again gives a feeling of a more open blow.. Just another idea !
Finally, another factor apart from throat/backbore are weight .. A Bach 1 1/2G with a smaller throat /backbore can feel more open as the sound gets more intense which again ,can be perceived as beeing more open.. Add weight to the blank and You can open up the throat/backbore AND open up the blow... Change one factor , and You have to  change the others...

About creating the perfect mouthpiece, i think i'll pass thank You  :-0

Trond
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« Reply #1507 on: Sep 17, 2016, 08:55AM »

Interesting post Svenne, I love to listen about George Roberts! Now, lets hope we all keep our "right mind" and dont shave down the shank on all our mouthpieces  :D I dont dear to do anything with mine. I did it once and never again.

As many say, the bach catalog is not to trust about measurement. My MT Vernon 1 1&2g have a slightly bigger throat than my regular 1 1&2g. And the MT Vernon 2g I sold had about the same hole as my MT Vernon 1 1&2g.

Trond, why do you like bigger throats? Is it really better or easier? My experience is not always so, but I cant say I know much about it? In fact I like more smaller throats, but as told, I dont really know about throat design.

Leif

Leif, i am not favoring one throatsize / backbore over another,.. Ideally i choose a mouthpiece that sounds the best on a given horn , no matter what specs..  On the Conn 70 H i owned it was a 1 1/2G  ,  which i find too restrictive on my Holton 's ..  After some experiments  i have found that a Yamaha 58 works best ( until now at least ) on my Holton.. The specs on the Yamaha 58 are very  close to a 2G , but with a more manageable rim , a bigger throat ( but pretty standard backbore) and a slightly heavier blank.. I usually do not favor heavier blanks , but the ( slight ) increase in weight combined with the (slight) increase in throatsize makes an improvement on my Holtons ( tr 183 and  tr 180 ) , for me.... On these horns , anyway !

Trond
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« Reply #1508 on: Sep 17, 2016, 09:18AM »

Leif, i am not favoring one throatsize / backbore over another,.. Ideally i choose a mouthpiece that sounds the best on a given horn , no matter what specs..  On the Conn 70 H i owned it was a 1 1/2G  ,  which i find too restrictive on my Holton 's ..  After some experiments  i have found that a Yamaha 58 works best ( until now at least ) on my Holton.. The specs on the Yamaha 58 are very  close to a 2G , but with a more manageable rim , a bigger throat ( but pretty standard backbore) and a slightly heavier blank.. I usually do not favor heavier blanks , but the ( slight ) increase in weight combined with the (slight) increase in throatsize makes an improvement on my Holtons ( tr 183 and  tr 180 ) , for me.... On these horns , anyway !

Trond

Well I have a 180. Hmmmmm
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« Reply #1509 on: Sep 17, 2016, 09:24AM »

Well I have a 180. Hmmmmm

 :D .... The 58  usually goes under the radar .. Too "accesible" and " un-sexy" ... A very good ,very well balanced piece in my opinion , ....if You can play bass with a 2G sized rim that is. !

Trond
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« Reply #1510 on: Sep 17, 2016, 11:55AM »

Hmm, I still have my Holton 1 1/2G, circa 1970. I played it for 10 years in a Yamaha YBL-321, but it never fit as well as it could have had I gotten the shank trimmed. Rather ironically, I traded an MV 1 1/2G for it.

I'll save it as I have a line on another 321.
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« Reply #1511 on: Sep 17, 2016, 01:21PM »

I have an older Holton 1.5g as well.  As far as smaller mouthpieces go, I prefer it over others I've tried with my 180.  I typically use something larger, though.  I don't have a scale but I would get that it's as heavy or heavier than a Bach 1.5g I have and definitely a larger throat.
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« Reply #1512 on: Sep 17, 2016, 02:45PM »

Very cool Chris. I saw the piece for sale just when I saw your reply. I would've tried to get it if I didn't see your reply. Hope you are well.

Eddie Clark
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« Reply #1513 on: Sep 17, 2016, 02:58PM »

It's interesting,this idea of how far a mouthpiece fit's into a leadpipe. It's an old one that's now coming around again. Some of the great classic bass trombone sounds came from players using Bach(usually 1&1/2 G's)mouthpieces in Conn(Brown & Sharpe tapers). This combination almost always has the mouthpiece going further into the pipe. Some of the new Pipes that are supposed to be re-creations of classic pipes(I've bought a few)are way off as to how far a mouthpiece fits in. Ideas anyone?
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« Reply #1514 on: Sep 17, 2016, 03:10PM »

Thanks Eddie,
It was a bit of a scramble and I was lucky enough to be in the US at the time.... otherwise I would have been sound asleep when it was posted. I didn't expect it to be this good. The only shame is that I didn't get it years ago.... though perhaps I had equipment that was just as good and simply didn't realise it....

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #1515 on: Sep 17, 2016, 03:21PM »

Chris (Blast)--

There is a perfectly logical and reasonable reason for all of this rather non-scientific observation, and it is based on long lost pre-WWII Olds R&D.

The pre-war Olds bass bone mouthpiece was the Olds shanked #20. Sort of a cross between a bad 6 1/2AL and a bad 5G...neither, in fact.
The post-war model was the Olds shanked #21, which is neither a 1 1/2G, nor a 2G.

George Roberts was there for both.
George Roberts did a heap of R&D for Olds.
George Roberts would have eventually plugged a stock Olds mouthpiece into a non-Olds horn.
The shank would have gone far further into a Morse tapered lead pipe than a regular Morse taper mouthpiece.
As a result the throat would have been 3/8" CLOSER to the horn than a Morse mouthpiece, using an Olds shank mouthpiece.

George Roberts didn't just cook this stuff up out of thin air, he had access to a whole factory churning out Olds mouthpieces. I'm pretty sure he just had them cobble an Olds shank onto a Bach stock mouthpiece and then have the thing replicated.
He discovered the secret in the 1950s using pre-existing Olds R&D.

How do I know this?
Well, I've done it myself-- repeatedly.
I have a TIS S-23 from Los Angeles in '55 that has the double valves and stock Olds slide. And the stock mouthpiece in '55 was the wonky #20. I took a faxx 1 1/2G and put an Olds shank on it. Close, but not quite right.

My experiment with a stock Wick Heritage 2NAL:
I "Olds shanked" a Wick 2NAL. Cut 3/8" off the end of the shank. Used a file to very slowly turn down the shank until it was a vintage Olds shank. I left the thickness of the shank and venturi, backbore well enough alone,. Quite thick and chunky-- but it made the upper register sing like a #20 does.

So, what did I learn from a modified Olds 2NAL?
Drop the throat 3/8" closer to the leadpiepe and the trigger register and pedals feel the same. No observable or audible difference between the three registers--straight, trigger an then pedal. It is a monster all the way around.
Is there any evidence of the so-called "tightness" from the "smaller" valves? NONE.
Does a bass clef register B natural feel exactly like the same pitch played with double valves and the whole slide in Bb/F/Eb?? Yes. There is no difference in feel. The open horn feels like the double valve horn. I've proven it to my satisfaction playing the staff register  :line2:with the double valve horn alone.

George Roberts proved this in the 50s. You've rediscovered it again in 2016, Chris.
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« Reply #1516 on: Sep 17, 2016, 03:27PM »

It's interesting,this idea of how far a mouthpiece fit's into a leadpipe. It's an old one that's now coming around again. Some of the great classic bass trombone sounds came from players using Bach(usually 1&1/2 G's)mouthpieces in Conn(Brown & Sharpe tapers). This combination almost always has the mouthpiece going further into the pipe. Some of the new Pipes that are supposed to be re-creations of classic pipes(I've bought a few)are way off as to how far a mouthpiece fits in. Ideas anyone?

Good observation Don. I think that up to some point, Bach mouthpieces for large shank trombones were Brown & Sharpe taper as the default option... my NY 3 and my early MV 1 1/2G (actually it was yours) both seem to have a longer B&S shank and no markings to indicate that they are non-standard. Anybody know more ?

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #1517 on: Sep 18, 2016, 12:15AM »

If You play a bass trombone with a generic GR leadpipe, it would probably be a worthwhile experiment to shave down the shank to fit further in replicating a brown & sharpe taper ( unless it is a priceless MV ) .. Does anyone here know  exactly how much further in the George Roberts mouthpeces fits into the receiver ? For instance the Kanstul or the Conn versions.. I have a couple  Yamaha 58 ' s to experiment with ( and my Holton tr 183 has a GR leadpipe ) .. Another question ; are the Kanstul and Conn GR pieces fitted with a Brown &Sharpe taper or a shaved down morse taper.. ?

Trond
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« Reply #1518 on: Sep 18, 2016, 05:41AM »

If You play a bass trombone with a generic GR leadpipe, it would probably be a worthwhile experiment to shave down the shank to fit further in replicating a brown & sharpe taper ( unless it is a priceless MV ) .. Does anyone here know  exactly how much further in the George Roberts mouthpeces fits into the receiver ? For instance the Kanstul or the Conn versions.. I have a couple  Yamaha 58 ' s to experiment with ( and my Holton tr 183 has a GR leadpipe ) .. Another question ; are the Kanstul and Conn GR pieces fitted with a Brown &Sharpe taper or a shaved down morse taper.. ?

Trond

I did this sort of shank shaving in the seventies and eighties.... wrecked almost as many mouthpieces as I did opening the throats. I would be very cautious about changing mouthpieces that work well in an effort to make them work even better.... it usually fails.

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #1519 on: Sep 18, 2016, 06:07AM »

I did this sort of shank shaving in the seventies and eighties.... wrecked almost as many mouthpieces as I did opening the throats. I would be very cautious about changing mouthpieces that work well in an effort to make them work even better.... it usually fails.

Chris Stearn

I have a tool maker here who has been doing it succesfully for me before ( with a piece that was sticking out too much ) , so i will be able to  do it one step at a time.. Besides , i have three of them with no significant difference in sound and blow( Yamahas are consistent !  ! ) ,one of them a giveaway..  I will however do some research first; how much deeper fit , the difference between a morsetapered and a Brown & sharpe GR leadpipe etc.

Trond
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