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The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentMouthpieces(Moderators: BGuttman, Doug Elliott) Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
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boneagain
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« Reply #1520 on: Sep 18, 2016, 07:40AM »

I have a tool maker here who has been doing it succesfully for me before ( with a piece that was sticking out too much ) , so i will be able to  do it one step at a time.. Besides , i have three of them with no significant difference in sound and blow( Yamahas are consistent !  ! ) ,one of them a giveaway..  I will however do some research first; how much deeper fit , the difference between a morsetapered and a Brown & sharpe GR leadpipe etc.

Trond

This is like car directions: go down this road to the last house on the right... if you drive into the river you've gone too far...

To me, the key is your statement "...i have three of them with no significant difference in sound and blow( Yamahas are consistent !  ! )... "

I suspect there is more consistency in mouthpiece shank than in mouthpiece receiver/lead-pipe.  Drawing a pipe that will eventually taper in two directions from a carefully planned constriction some inches from the mouthpiece end has all kinds of opportunities for things to be off by a millimeter or ten.  Then, after the fact, measuring EXACTLY where in that constriction to set as the base point for setting rim depth... or, more challenging, distance between leadpipe constriction and mouthpiece throat...

I suspect that the best results will come from trial and error, using very consistent mouthpieces, and that those results will be pretty horn-specific (as in, shaving for a Conn 70h won't necessarily work well in a Holton 165, or perhaps even other Conn 70h's.)

I'd love to hear how your tool maker does HIS shaving.  I may have some to do for  a friend before too long, and method would seem paramount to exact matches of intended increases in insertion versus diametrical reductions along such a shallow taper!

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« Reply #1521 on: Sep 18, 2016, 08:26AM »

This is like car directions: go down this road to the last house on the right... if you drive into the river you've gone too far...

To me, the key is your statement "...i have three of them with no significant difference in sound and blow( Yamahas are consistent !  ! )... "

I suspect there is more consistency in mouthpiece shank than in mouthpiece receiver/lead-pipe.  Drawing a pipe that will eventually taper in two directions from a carefully planned constriction some inches from the mouthpiece end has all kinds of opportunities for things to be off by a millimeter or ten.  Then, after the fact, measuring EXACTLY where in that constriction to set as the base point for setting rim depth... or, more challenging, distance between leadpipe constriction and mouthpiece throat...

I suspect that the best results will come from trial and error, using very consistent mouthpieces, and that those results will be pretty horn-specific (as in, shaving for a Conn 70h won't necessarily work well in a Holton 165, or perhaps even other Conn 70h's.)

I'd love to hear how your tool maker does HIS shaving.  I may have some to do for  a friend before too long, and method would seem paramount to exact matches of intended increases in insertion versus diametrical reductions along such a shallow taper!



I think my tool man will do it with all  the precision neccessary.. The big question is as You mention to know how much to do ( or how long towards the river You should drive ) ..

The Kanstul GR mouthpiece comes with a ready shaved shank and is commercially available , expected to fit the infinite amount of specimen to specimen variation, of (in particular ) GR leadpipe equipped horns..  to copy that could be a starting point..  Don't know

Trond
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« Reply #1522 on: Sep 19, 2016, 12:58PM »

Today I wanted to see how fare down the GR mv copy goes in the lead pipe. And yes it goes farther down than a normal Bach 1 1/2g. So did the kanstul 1 1/2g. So that's maybe how George Roberts wanted them? Have you shaved down your 58 yet Trond?

Leif
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« Reply #1523 on: Sep 19, 2016, 01:08PM »

Today I wanted to see how fare down the GR mv copy goes in the lead pipe. And yes it goes farther down than a normal Bach 1 1/2g. So did the kanstul 1 1/2g. So that's maybe how George Roberts wanted them? Have you shaved down your 58 yet Trond?

Leif

I am toying with the idea , but i am not in a hurry.. Need to know more about the Holton  GR leadpipe.. George used the same leadpipe in all of his signature horns wether it was with a Brown&Sharpe or a Morse taper.. Difficult to know if they were supposed to fit a standard or a shaved piece.. I tried a Conn 3B in it which worked very well.. I should really restrain my self a little because i am more satisfied with the equipment  i use now than i have been for a long time[img] :D

Trond
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« Reply #1524 on: Sep 19, 2016, 01:14PM »

I suspect that the leadpipe that George Roberts used in all the procession of horns he endorsed was one rescued from one of his early horns... probably a Conn 70H pipe.... but the various makers had their own take on their production models... don't assume that Roberts endorsed models had faithful copies of his pipe in production instruments.

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #1525 on: Sep 19, 2016, 01:25PM »

When you ordered a lead pipe from Larry Minick he would ask you what mouthpiece you played so what you had would fit into the lead pipe the appropriate length.
I have several Bach 1 and 1/2Gs that I'm not using-might start some experimental shaving.
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« Reply #1526 on: Sep 19, 2016, 08:05PM »

My George Roberts Replica CE also has a pretty short shank.
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« Reply #1527 on: Sep 20, 2016, 01:57AM »

My George Roberts Replica CE also has a pretty short shank.

So it's a 'short-shank redemption'.... Evil

Oh well, somebody had to say it... :D :D

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #1528 on: Sep 20, 2016, 04:57AM »

So it's a 'short-shank redemption'.... Evil

Oh well, somebody had to say it... :D :D

Chris Stearn

this site really needs a good rofl emoticon...
but I'm glad YOU said it and not ME  :D
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« Reply #1529 on: Sep 22, 2016, 02:22PM »

So I found a Bach Corp. 1 and 1/2 with a shaved shank and slightly opened throat. Using it in my 180 right now. Low register is killing. Verdict out on overall results but it's interesting. It's in about 1/4 inch further than a typical 1 and 1/2.  More later.
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« Reply #1530 on: Sep 22, 2016, 03:47PM »

So I found a Bach Corp. 1 and 1/2 with a shaved shank and slightly opened throat. Using it in my 180 right now. Low register is killing. Verdict out on overall results but it's interesting. It's in about 1/4 inch further than a typical 1 and 1/2.  More later.

Interesting... what is frustrating is that there is no logical and measurable way of identifying a great mouthpiece..... not a good or workable mouthpiece... a great mouthpiece..... a rare beast.

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #1531 on: Sep 22, 2016, 05:43PM »

Interesting... what is frustrating is that there is no logical and measurable way of identifying a great mouthpiece..... not a good or workable mouthpiece... a great mouthpiece..... a rare beast.

Chris Stearn


All this talk about mouthpieces got my weak soul popping out my hidden box with 1 1/2g mouthpieces.  Bad dog.  No Biscuits. :/ Yeah, RIGHT.

I did the Sam (Sabutin) method, blind method. This method should also be used in different ensembles! I have done it many times. Every time the MT Vernon win. Even when listening old recordings, no doubt. I noticed when listening old practicing records, the flow of music, making phrases is always better with the Mt Vernon. But thats me. When I ask others, they dont listen any difference. Only if I change to a bigger mouthpiece. Its suddenly good, and then after some days, it still feels good, yes, but the sound is no bass trombone anymore. Its a blend of Horn, baritone, and tuba. All trombones should sound like a trombone, no matter if its an alto, tenor, bass or contra trombone 

Any way Chris,  "a great mouthpiece..... a rare beast."

The rare beast is our self.....   :D :D :D

Leif

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« Reply #1532 on: Sep 23, 2016, 01:35AM »

I should post a small health warning...
This Mt Vernon 1 1/2G thing is, as Leif says, about sound.
If you like a classic bass sound, they are great.
They will not help you make the 'modern American' sound.... whatever that really is.
The good ones also feel like nothing else.....

Back to subject.

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #1533 on: Sep 23, 2016, 07:15AM »

I should post a small health warning...
This Mt Vernon 1 1/2G thing is, as Leif says, about sound.
If you like a classic bass sound, they are great.
They will not help you make the 'modern American' sound.... whatever that really is.
The good ones also feel like nothing else.....

Back to subject.

Chris Stearn

Hmmm... I'm getting a little more forgetful with each passing decade (of mine) or handful of pages (of this thread)... but I don't recall such a neat, direct tie back to the original topic (who... right mind... 1 1/2G.)

Has anyone in all these pages suggested he or she can get this 'modern American sound' with a 1 1/2G?  Perhaps the "right mind" that picks 1 1/2G is exactly the kind NOT after that sound?

When my job required me to stand out more by big, solid-cored, high-volume sound, I used a Stork in the Schilke 60 rim range, with a throat I could throw large pencils through.  When I got to where I could play what I WANTED to play, I could best bring out the added color that the 1 1/2G size got for me.

I am intrigued by the MV findings above.  In my case, I found 1 1/4G too big for just the right color, and 2G too small. "Goldilocks" factor (i.e. "just right") happened in 1 1/2G variants.  Considering how many variants were supposedly MV copies, and that only the Rath 1 1/2BW really "does it" for me, I find the search for just the right original dangerously alluring  :)

But, alas, I do not have a helpful daughter, like Leif has, who will bury my collection for me, and help stop the madness  Evil

Still... a great MV... Duo Gravis.... that's what the horn was designed for... I wonder...
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« Reply #1534 on: Sep 29, 2016, 04:01AM »

Hi people!

Last week (after trying to read all the 77 pages of this post unsuccessfully...), I got a Bach 1-1/2G from a friend and, as you can imagine, I got in love with it inmediately!
I tried it about 5 years ago, and I couldn't play a single note right, but now... I might be a better musician Don't know

The low range isn't a problem, the high range is sooooo easy. The only problem I find is that with my bass trombone combination (Edwards B454: 10" red/lightest bell, light slide, B3 leadpipe) I have the feeling that it won't match very good on the trombone/tuba section... It feels too bright to me. Last night I had a jazz gig and for that it was great! But big orchestra programs... not sure yet...

So, my question is. Do you guys have large equipments to compensate? Dual bore slides, heavy bells, etc.
When I bought my Edwards I was playing on a Stork 1 heavy, but I always felt that with other lighter pieces (Schilke 59-60, Griego .75 Deco, DE XB114,L,L8, Bach 1-1/4, etc. ) the sound tends to get too brassy too soon. That's cool for those times when the conductor asks me to make a hole in the wall of the theater (or at least doesn't complain about it Evil Evil). I think heavy mouthpieces aren't a good choice for me, because the sound doesn't have any color (or it isn't interesting, quoting Chris).

Thanks!

J
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« Reply #1535 on: Sep 29, 2016, 05:30AM »

Hi people!

Last week (after trying to read all the 77 pages of this post unsuccessfully...), I got a Bach 1-1/2G from a friend and, as you can imagine, I got in love with it inmediately!
I tried it about 5 years ago, and I couldn't play a single note right, but now... I might be a better musician Don't know

The low range isn't a problem, the high range is sooooo easy. The only problem I find is that with my bass trombone combination (Edwards B454: 10" red/lightest bell, light slide, B3 leadpipe) I have the feeling that it won't match very good on the trombone/tuba section... It feels too bright to me. Last night I had a jazz gig and for that it was great! But big orchestra programs... not sure yet...

So, my question is. Do you guys have large equipments to compensate? Dual bore slides, heavy bells, etc.
When I bought my Edwards I was playing on a Stork 1 heavy, but I always felt that with other lighter pieces (Schilke 59-60, Griego .75 Deco, DE XB114,L,L8, Bach 1-1/4, etc. ) the sound tends to get too brassy too soon. That's cool for those times when the conductor asks me to make a hole in the wall of the theater (or at least doesn't complain about it Evil Evil). I think heavy mouthpieces aren't a good choice for me, because the sound doesn't have any color (or it isn't interesting, quoting Chris).

Thanks!

J

Well a 10" light bell flare is not helping you. Spreads quicker and the lightness can hurt as well.
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« Reply #1536 on: Sep 29, 2016, 06:46AM »

karexobasstrombone I agree with you about heavy mouthpieces. Generally sound a bit more dead. However I have found that in a more lively horn, like my TR 180, the Stork regular weight 1.5 that I have sounds nice. But my horn is easier to color than my Bach 50BG2 and the Stork 1.5 sounds dead-no color whatsoever.
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« Reply #1537 on: Sep 29, 2016, 07:36AM »

I've tried many 9,5" bells, and I still didn't find any that makes a positive difference... They all sound too tenor-like (not only behind the bell) on me. I also tried the new B502-I and I felt the same... I think I should get a heavier bell, that's all... I was also thinking about having mine customized with a screw rim to add some weight (useful for planes too), but I'm scared of destroy it for good...
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« Reply #1538 on: Sep 30, 2016, 01:32AM »

I've tried many 9,5" bells, and I still didn't find any that makes a positive difference... They all sound too tenor-like (not only behind the bell) on me. I also tried the new B502-I and I felt the same... I think I should get a heavier bell, that's all... I was also thinking about having mine customized with a screw rim to add some weight (useful for planes too), but I'm scared of destroy it for good...

Too many of us hear with our eyes. Big, open, heavy, what do we mean ? Listen to recordings of Bob Hughes... in the LSO, Philharmonia and RSNO.... is that not a great orchestral sound ? Bach 2G, Conn62H, a great concept and a lot of work.
If you don't like that kind of sound, step away from the old Bach mouthpiece.
You need a massive mouthpiece and a modern instrument.
That's fine.
I have a new student... after his first lesson, he may be confused... Big, heavy modern trombone and mega mouthpiece.... that sound diffuse and light next to my old Holton and Bach 1 1/2G..... when he decides how he really wants to sound, the tools may change.... or they may not...
We all hope to find our sound grail....
Happy searching.

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #1539 on: Sep 30, 2016, 03:24AM »

Too many of us hear with our eyes. Big, open, heavy, what do we mean ? Listen to recordings of Bob Hughes... in the LSO, Philharmonia and RSNO.... is that not a great orchestral sound ? Bach 2G, Conn62H, a great concept and a lot of work.

I remember having season tickets for the RSNO in the early 80's and being in awe of the trombone section but particularly the bass trombone.

Ronnie
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