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The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentMouthpieces(Moderators: BGuttman, Doug Elliott) Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
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karexobasstrombone
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« Reply #1540 on: Sep 30, 2016, 05:52AM »

Too many of us hear with our eyes. Big, open, heavy, what do we mean ? Listen to recordings of Bob Hughes... in the LSO, Philharmonia and RSNO.... is that not a great orchestral sound ? Bach 2G, Conn62H, a great concept and a lot of work.
If you don't like that kind of sound, step away from the old Bach mouthpiece.
You need a massive mouthpiece and a modern instrument.
That's fine.
I have a new student... after his first lesson, he may be confused... Big, heavy modern trombone and mega mouthpiece.... that sound diffuse and light next to my old Holton and Bach 1 1/2G..... when he decides how he really wants to sound, the tools may change.... or they may not...
We all hope to find our sound grail....
Happy searching.

Chris Stearn



I understand your point, and I agree 100% with you. I never understood why people keep saying big (or small, just the other side) is better. I just look for a change because it's getting more and more difficult to reproduce the sound I hear in my head. Probably this sound concept is changing and that's why all this craziness... :-0
 
Before I played on Bach 50 and I was totally in love with it, but I needed to change because the tuning of the horn was real hell (even after cutting a piece of tube...). I never had problems to focus on that horn, and it had a 10,5" bell. The same with the Edwards. I think my sound has a lot of core (both in pppp and ffff), but I'm looking for something that keeps the sound under control in the fff dynamics. That's basically it...

I wasn't even looking for a mouthpiece change (I play on DE XB114,L,L8 and I'm very happy with it), it's just I was surpirsed how good this mouthpiece was, but still not sure if it is good enough for what I need on my actual set up. Just curious how other people does it :)
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Matt K

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« Reply #1541 on: Sep 30, 2016, 06:45AM »

This is tangential to the topic of the 1.5G, but I suspect with the horn your playing, an L9 shank might be closer to what you're looking for. The various shanks really do make a difference, and while he says that the 9 is geared towards dual bore instruments, I find that they also work with horns that are otherwise considered "big" in comparison to what others play. Worst case scenario, you decide you don't like it and send it back to Doug and go for something else.  You're also playing on the most "open" of the pipes that Edwards offers.  Some combination of perhaps a slightly "tighter" leadpipe and shank that matches the rest of the horn more might be a better suit for you than trying pieces that have a heavier weight. At least that's been my experinc.
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karexobasstrombone
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« Reply #1542 on: Sep 30, 2016, 08:02AM »

This is actually a good idea. When I play tighter leadpipes, the sound get even more compact, but I find that it breaks earlier... I might need to practice me fff instead  Pant

I never thought about trying the L9 because I thought I would have to work extra on the focus and projection and it would need more air supply, and I'm just looking to keep it easy (don't we all?  :-P). But I might try.

Back on topic, I was just wondering if people playing 1.5G size pieces to sound amazing they also have some kind of standard set up (mine isn't, or so I think). Of course the gear doesn't make a player (only hard pratice does), but I believe that if your equipment doesn't let you share the ideas you have in an easy way, then some adjustements on your set up would be needed.
Again, I might need more pratice (who doesn't, right?)  Yeah, RIGHT.
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Doug Elliott
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« Reply #1543 on: Sep 30, 2016, 08:16AM »

I never thought about trying the L9 because I thought I would have to work extra on the focus and projection and it would need more air supply, and I'm just looking to keep it easy (don't we all?  :-P). But I might try.
With some horns, it's exactly the opposite.  A bigger backbore (up to a point...) makes everything easier.
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karexobasstrombone
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« Reply #1544 on: Sep 30, 2016, 09:13AM »

With some horns, it's exactly the opposite.  A bigger backbore (up to a point...) makes everything easier.

hmmmm intersting... PM Doug! :)
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Matt K

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« Reply #1545 on: Sep 30, 2016, 11:46AM »

Quote
This is actually a good idea. When I play tighter leadpipes, the sound get even more compact, but I find that it breaks earlier... I might need to practice me fff instead  Pant

When you say it "breaks" earlier I'm assuming you mean the 'red line' for when you're playing loudly goes into edge sooner.  I'm very familiar with that distinction as I straddled that line very closely for a lot of the time I've been playing. I'm not familiar with the offerings of Edwards, but I know that I find the longer pipes from Shires to help with that.  I also find sterling silver pipes to offer a bit more density that keeps the redline from happening but still keeps the sound interesting. (This may also be due to the fact that sterling pipes are a little longer than yellow pipes with both companies)  That said, I know several Edwards players who really seem to like the sterling silver offerings. One forum member here indicated awhile ago that it was the difference between a black & white TV vs a color TV in terms of sound between yellow and silver.  YMMV, but if you're at a convention it might be worth investigating.  They're expensive, but the additional expense has seemed worth it to me.
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« Reply #1546 on: Sep 30, 2016, 12:02PM »

When you say it "breaks" earlier I'm assuming you mean the 'red line' for when you're playing loudly goes into edge sooner.  I'm very familiar with that distinction as I straddled that line very closely for a lot of the time I've been playing. I'm not familiar with the offerings of Edwards, but I know that I find the longer pipes from Shires to help with that.  I also find sterling silver pipes to offer a bit more density that keeps the redline from happening but still keeps the sound interesting. (This may also be due to the fact that sterling pipes are a little longer than yellow pipes with both companies)  That said, I know several Edwards players who really seem to like the sterling silver offerings. One forum member here indicated awhile ago that it was the difference between a black & white TV vs a color TV in terms of sound between yellow and silver.  YMMV, but if you're at a convention it might be worth investigating.  They're expensive, but the additional expense has seemed worth it to me.

Yeah, I mean that... it never really get ugly (i think), but it's very easy to blow everyone heads off,which is cool sometimes, but not everytime of course... it's kind of the last two Fs in pini di roma in Fantasia 2000 sound, by CSO (obviolsy I'm comparing myself with Charlie Vernon! That would be just silly...). I might just need to keep my hormones under control Yeah, RIGHT.   EvilYeah, RIGHT.

I'll check the silver pipes in an Edwards distributor in Holland next month, thanks for the tip!

And thanks to everyone for all the usefull inputs! :) (sorry if my coments got too off topic, i just didn't think it was worthy to create a new post about gear and the Bach 1.5)
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Matt K

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« Reply #1547 on: Sep 30, 2016, 12:11PM »

Yeah, I mean that... it never really get ugly (i think), but it's very easy to blow everyone heads off,which is cool sometimes, but not everytime of course... it's kind of the last two Fs in pini di roma in Fantasia 2000 sound, by CSO (obviolsy I'm comparing myself with Charlie Vernon! That would be just silly...). I might just need to keep my hormones under control Yeah, RIGHT.   EvilYeah, RIGHT.

I'll check the silver pipes in an Edwards distributor in Holland next month, thanks for the tip!

And thanks to everyone for all the usefull inputs! :) (sorry if my coments got too off topic, i just didn't think it was worthy to create a new post about gear and the Bach 1.5)

I don't think you're going to get much pushback on this forum asking for advice on your equipment, we (I?) have a hard enough time not giving unsolicited advice.  Evil On the contrary, you'll probably be deluged with more opinions than you'd like.

I will add one final thought, and that is that you might not actually be redlining as much as simply playing very loud. Sometimes it can be hard to tell from behind the bell. I've occasionally been surprised to find that my sound was appropriate when I thought I was being perhaps too forthcoming with edge. With equipment as large as you're playing on, you might be surprised to find that 'smaller' equipment which gives the appearance of brightness (what some refer to, I think, as an "interesting sound") but is actually quieter in terms of overall volume might actually yield less of a "red line" and project further into the audience.
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« Reply #1548 on: Sep 30, 2016, 12:41PM »

I don't think you're going to get much pushback on this forum asking for advice on your equipment, we (I?) have a hard enough time not giving unsolicited advice.  Evil On the contrary, you'll probably be deluged with more opinions than you'd like.

I will add one final thought, and that is that you might not actually be redlining as much as simply playing very loud. Sometimes it can be hard to tell from behind the bell. I've occasionally been surprised to find that my sound was appropriate when I thought I was being perhaps too forthcoming with edge. With equipment as large as you're playing on, you might be surprised to find that 'smaller' equipment which gives the appearance of brightness (what some refer to, I think, as an "interesting sound") but is actually quieter in terms of overall volume might actually yield less of a "red line" and project further into the audience.

I heard that same comment many times before, maybe i should start listening...
Smaller equipment= less effort= more presence in the audience= brighter sound feedback 
it's just it feels wrong when you hear your principal trombone playing with a huge sound while mine is smaller (from behind the bell at least).

Thanks for the thoughts! I'll keep trying to find the holy grial hehehe
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« Reply #1549 on: Sep 30, 2016, 01:16PM »

I heard that same comment many times before, maybe i should start listening...
Smaller equipment= less effort= more presence in the audience= brighter sound feedback 
it's just it feels wrong when you hear your principal trombone playing with a huge sound while mine is smaller (from behind the bell at least).

Thanks for the thoughts! I'll keep trying to find the holy grial hehehe

I think you are thinking wise thoughts !

Really great equipment teaches you things... the other stuff keeps you asking questions....

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #1550 on: Sep 30, 2016, 01:58PM »

I think you are thinking wise thoughts !

Really great equipment teaches you things... the other stuff keeps you asking questions....

Chris Stearn

I did ask my self for 25 years, and didn't understand anything. Thanks to Chris and this forum I did find what I look for. I found my place.  Good!

Now its just to practice..... and enjoy. Played my Conn 60h and the Vernon 1 1\2g in an orchestra today. Its a professional opera orchestra and even though I don't play much in such environment I feel relaxed. I know the sound is right, I know the intonation works. I can just relax and concentrate on music, and listen better what is going on in the orchestra. Easier to fit in. I feel more like a musician again, at least  for some couple of weeks. Then back to teaching.

The right equipment that fits our own concepts is in fact important to feel well and go on with music. Chris and those experienced pro musicians is well worth to listen, that's sure!

Leif



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« Reply #1551 on: Sep 30, 2016, 05:12PM »

You know something?  After reading the many, many pages of this post, I believe I feel enlightened to try out the Bach 1.5G.  I hope its good as everyone else says here. :D
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Ethan Wadie
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« Reply #1552 on: Oct 01, 2016, 12:53AM »

You know something?  After reading the many, many pages of this post, I believe I feel enlightened to try out the Bach 1.5G.  I hope its good as everyone else says here. :D

If you find a good Bach 1 1/2G it can be a revelation.... if you find a good one.... they vary massively ..... few are really good.... the search begins ?

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #1553 on: Oct 02, 2016, 10:11AM »

Ahhhh!!! After reading the new activity on this thread the past week or so, I've given in and took out probably-not-even-special Getzen 1-1/2G....

It's so crisp and clean, and if *I* do it right, there is still plenty of volume at the low end. And, my upper register just sings.

I thought I had all this mouthpiece confusion behind me.  :-0 :cry:

Gonna give it a go at rehearsal tomorrow night just for giggles.



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« Reply #1554 on: Oct 05, 2016, 09:24AM »

The best Bach 1.5G I owned was a MV that had been an experiment. The donor of said mouthpiece had reamed it out to open it up and of course the experiment did not achieve the desired result. The price was right and I parlayed that into a Holton 1.5G with a trade to an opera bass bonist named Herb for a Holton 1.5G. I used the Holton in a Yamaha 321 for 12 years.

My next purchase of a Bach 1.5G was done by mail order in 1991. From the day it arrived it was terrible. I could sell it on eBay, but my conscience prevents inflicting this POS on somebody else. Of course, this "frog" could turn into a Prince for somebody. But I think my frog kissing days are over.

I expect I'll go back to the Holton 1.5G it I'm able to get my good friend to sell me his Yamaha 321 when he stops playing it. The horn is so much fun with a good 1.5G.
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« Reply #1555 on: Oct 05, 2016, 09:46AM »

The best Bach 1.5G I owned was a MV that had been an experiment. The donor of said mouthpiece had reamed it out to open it up and of course the experiment did not achieve the desired result. The price was right and I parlayed that into a Holton 1.5G with a trade to an opera bass bonist named Herb for a Holton 1.5G. I used the Holton in a Yamaha 321 for 12 years.

My next purchase of a Bach 1.5G was done by mail order in 1991. From the day it arrived it was terrible. I could sell it on eBay, but my conscience prevents inflicting this POS on somebody else. Of course, this "frog" could turn into a Prince for somebody. But I think my frog kissing days are over.

I expect I'll go back to the Holton 1.5G it I'm able to get my good friend to sell me his Yamaha 321 when he stops playing it. The horn is so much fun with a good 1.5G.


Small digression.... have you seen Herb lately ? How is he ? About 15 years since I last saw him and the Opera Canada guys.
Bach 1 1/2G's vary massively ....
The Holtons (and the 87 model that preceded it) were basically copies of a Bach 1 1/2G with a longer, wider bore. They blow well but can sound a little harsh if not controlled..
Chris Stearn
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« Reply #1556 on: Oct 05, 2016, 09:55AM »

If you find a good Bach 1 1/2G it can be a revelation.... if you find a good one.... they vary massively ..... few are really good.... the search begins ?

Chris Stearn
If the search for a good Bach 1.5G fails, I'll continue to pursue and find my holy grail.  I thought that the topic was praising the Bach 1.5G.  Well, my English comprehension just scored a new low. :/
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« Reply #1557 on: Oct 05, 2016, 11:04AM »

If the search for a good Bach 1.5G fails, I'll continue to pursue and find my holy grail.  I thought that the topic was praising the Bach 1.5G.  Well, my English comprehension just scored a new low. :/

Read post number 1.
I was talking about a Mt Vernon 1 1/2G.... still am.
Comprehension... now there's a big thing....

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #1558 on: Oct 05, 2016, 11:08AM »

Read post number 1.
I was talking about a Mt Vernon 1 1/2G.... still am.
Comprehension... now there's a big thing....

Chris Stearn
Oh okay.  I guess I did somewhat understood.  I thought it was about the modern Bach 1.5G.  Thanks for the clarification.  And I'll keep a look out for one! (MV)
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Ethan Wadie
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« Reply #1559 on: Oct 05, 2016, 01:32PM »

Just remember Ethan, that in the earlier stages of learning, practise and lessons are more important than the ultimate equipment.... and that is good news for you.
The time to refine the hard machine is a little later... college and early career...

Chris Stearn
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