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The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentMouthpieces(Moderators: BGuttman, Doug Elliott) Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
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« Reply #200 on: Aug 25, 2007, 02:46AM »

Ok then I am sorry and have not read it carefully. Sorry! I play a schilke 59 and feel its ok for me.
I have also tried the yamaha Yeo mouthpiece and its very nice. The sound is warm and dark but it take so much of my air. If I practice 4-5 hours every day I can control it but...... When I play my schilke I can think more music when I play. Way cool

The mouthpiece I found "Reynolds & son 1 1/2" look and feels like a copy of bach 1 1/2.
 

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« Reply #201 on: Aug 25, 2007, 11:41AM »

Ok then I am sorry and have not read it carefully. Sorry! I play a schilke 59 and feel its ok for me.
I have also tried the yamaha Yeo mouthpiece and its very nice. The sound is warm and dark but it take so much of my air. If I practice 4-5 hours every day I can control it but...... When I play my schilke I can think more music when I play. Way cool

The mouthpiece I found "Reynolds & son 1 1/2" look and feels like a copy of bach 1 1/2.
 

Leif

Yes Leif, most big mouthpieces take more air and demand more embouchure development than small mouthpieces.
There is no right and wrong with mouthpieces... we have to find what is right for our own needs.. both in terms of physical ability and tonal concept. If you like the feel and sound that you get with the Schilke 59, then that is fine... there are great players using all sorts of size and design of mouthpiece.
I started this thread having read again and again that the Bach 1 1/2G was a good 'beginner' mouthpiece, and that things had moved on since the Bach 1 1/2G was made....
Now I don't think that is correct... too many really fine players use these mouthpieces, and I have come back to one myself after more than 25 years on the big stuff... mostly the Schilke 60. For me the reason is mostly sound... I just cannot get the sort of sound I want on the bigger mouthpieces... even though I find them easy to play on.... the old Bach 1 1/2G gets me where I want to be in tonal terms.
Interestingly, over the course of this thread, many players have owned up to a 1 1/2G habit, and others have tried them again or even gone to them for the first time and been surprised by what they have found.
The thread is not about converting players to the 1 1/2G... it's about keeping an open mind, and realising that good things can be sitting under your nose and can be ignored because of mere familiarity.
Chris Stearn.
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« Reply #202 on: Aug 25, 2007, 11:43AM »

The thread is not about converting players to the 1 1/2G... it's about keeping an open mind, and realising that good things can be sitting under your nose and can be ignored because of mere familiarity.

Nicely said.

 Good!
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« Reply #203 on: Aug 26, 2007, 08:14PM »

Yes Leif, most big mouthpieces take more air and demand more embouchure development than small mouthpieces.
There is no right and wrong with mouthpieces... we have to find what is right for our own needs.. both in terms of physical ability and tonal concept. If you like the feel and sound that you get with the Schilke 59, then that is fine... there are great players using all sorts of size and design of mouthpiece.
I started this thread having read again and again that the Bach 1 1/2G was a good 'beginner' mouthpiece, and that things had moved on since the Bach 1 1/2G was made....
Now I don't think that is correct... too many really fine players use these mouthpieces, and I have come back to one myself after more than 25 years on the big stuff... mostly the Schilke 60. For me the reason is mostly sound... I just cannot get the sort of sound I want on the bigger mouthpieces... even though I find them easy to play on.... the old Bach 1 1/2G gets me where I want to be in tonal terms.
Interestingly, over the course of this thread, many players have owned up to a 1 1/2G habit, and others have tried them again or even gone to them for the first time and been surprised by what they have found.
The thread is not about converting players to the 1 1/2G... it's about keeping an open mind, and realising that good things can be sitting under your nose and can be ignored because of mere familiarity.
Chris Stearn.

You're conclusion rings true, as I went on a search for the magical mouthpiece and ended up right back where I began.  I guess I had to figure out whether the gains were worth the sacrifices....so far they aren't and I'm back on my original piece. 

DG
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« Reply #204 on: Aug 26, 2007, 09:16PM »

 The perfect 1&1/2 G-is(I've always thought) like the Holy Grail of sound on the Bass Trombone. I think I know what is is,but in a strange sort of way-I still search. 27.5(inner diam.) is somehow a break between small and not so small. Most of the Modern Horns on the market today are a result of the input from players that  play big mouthpieces. I'm not sure if anyone has experienced this. Maybe on an intuitive level-if you know what I mean. You plug in a 1&1/2 in and it feels weird-like the shoe is too small. So next thing I know the larger mouthpiece is in the Horn because "it works better". Like most relationships,things begin to come into question over time.
So one day,out of frustration the 1&1/2G is plugged in and it works!
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« Reply #205 on: Aug 27, 2007, 12:17AM »

The perfect 1&1/2 G-is(I've always thought) like the Holy Grail of sound on the Bass Trombone. I think I know what is is,but in a strange sort of way-I still search. 27.5(inner diam.) is somehow a break between small and not so small. Most of the Modern Horns on the market today are a result of the input from players that  play big mouthpieces. I'm not sure if anyone has experienced this. Maybe on an intuitive level-if you know what I mean. You plug in a 1&1/2 in and it feels weird-like the shoe is too small. So next thing I know the larger mouthpiece is in the Horn because "it works better". Like most relationships,things begin to come into question over time.
So one day,out of frustration the 1&1/2G is plugged in and it works!

Good point about modern horns, Don. Interestingly, Ian Davies, who did almost all the development work on the Rath bass, did it on the 1 1/2G. One reason why you might like the horn.
I agree with you about the 27.5 break point.... beyond that rim size the sound is always different.
Chris Stearn.
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« Reply #206 on: Aug 30, 2007, 11:28AM »

I played a 1 1/2 G when I did bass bone in college, but I found the rim painfully uncomfortable and switched to a Schilke 58. Now I play euph and tenor and only pick up my bass for exactly one gig a year, so the search has ended.

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« Reply #207 on: Aug 31, 2007, 06:24AM »

Yes that was/is the problem with the inconsistency of Bach mouthpieces.
Some 1 G rims are terrible. And some of the cups look like they are drilled by students.
Some of the back bores are lopsided, not in the middle.

But sometimes you find a good piece, and then it is very good.
But those are less then 25% of the production I say.
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« Reply #208 on: Sep 01, 2007, 10:25AM »

I was at an ITA conference in Nashville, USA back in '81 and '82. VP and quality control guy " L.F." from Bach was manning the Bach booth at the demo tables.

I opened the box on a NEW Bach 1 1/2GM which was a new model back then. The backbore had been drilled so off center that it was razor sharp on one edge and about 1/4" thick on the other. Whoever was running the drill press must have been drunk or blind.

I took the mouthpiece to Mr. "L.F" and showed him the mistake that had made it all the way to the top trade show in the USA for professional trombonists and their accompanying students. His reaction?? " He snarled a- " Well then, don't buy the f*****g thing." I walked away to the Holton display where Lew Van Haney was busy playing Remington exercises and blowing the breeze with a legion of his students.

Later that day at the mass bone choir rehearsal a kid behind me was bragging that he'd "managed" to score a "new prototype Bach 1 1/2GM" from the table.

Lets talk about Mount Vernon for a while can we??? I'd do us all good to tell happy stories for a while!

Later the same year I came across a "prototype" 36C. Removeable F-attachment 36B. The mechanism was so out of whack that the local music store owner had to show me how easy it was to do, and exchange the valve attachment. He was 6 '5" and about 240 lbs. His face went red, and eventually he bent the mechanism so badly that the whole brace was torqued and he had to return it to the factory as a 'second".

Bach now? Bach in the past 25 or 30 years? Not on your life.
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« Reply #209 on: Sep 01, 2007, 11:48AM »

I've been told that Bach constructed some kind of rotary  tool to make mouthpieces faster, probably when they moved to Elkhart... and that movement in that tool led to the off-center backbores... only a story.. I'll wait and see if there's any truth in it.
The New York and Mt Vernon stamped stuff is almost always light years ahead of what followed... whatever the reason.
Chris Stearn.
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« Reply #210 on: Sep 01, 2007, 01:29PM »

Well, if all of the stories and suppositions are true then there is only one course of action for all of us to take---

If Bach ever returns to work after being on strike then I propose that all of us treat them the way that they have treated us as loyal and potential customers....

We pay for their sub-standard and sub-quality gear with sub-quality funds. Photo-copy money and print it off-center. Pay for the merchandise in funds as good as the merchandise you receive.

OR... as we are all doing now continue to purchase gear that DOES WORK. The faxx mouthpieces. etc. etc. etc.

 Bach has themselves to blame only. THEY created the vaccuum they fell into themselves.

Thanks for the GREAT mouthpieces, Vince!

Tough luck Conn-Selmer-UMI-Holton-blatzz-Fluurrtz-JinBao. (Whomever you are this week on the stock market!!??!!)

Let your credit card do the walking.
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« Reply #211 on: Sep 01, 2007, 02:01PM »

Who makes the best "Bach 1 1/2G" Mouthpieces?
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« Reply #212 on: Sep 01, 2007, 03:00PM »

Who makes the best "Bach 1 1/2G" Mouthpieces?

Simple.... old man Bach when he owned the company.... I've played just about every commonly available 1 1/2G size mouthpiece, and none are quite as good. Some are easier to play, some project more, some are more slotted, some are darker... but the best (and not all the old ones measure up) of the Mt Vernon 1 1/2G's are very special indeed.
Closest to that are some of the 'George Roberts' mouthpieces made in the '80's.... copies of his Bachs.
Chris Stearn.
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« Reply #213 on: Sep 03, 2007, 06:52PM »

G'day all,

I find it interesting that people have this "rose coloured glasses" view of NY and Mt Vernon Bach product. That they are the "Holy Grail".

That contrasts with the widely help belief that, as stated by Sam Burtis, and echoed by many others, "if you want a custom mounthpiece, line up a dozen Bach's and find the one you like". Sam, I believe, was talking about the Mt Vernon and early Elkhart era. Consistency was not something that was a big selling point for Bach in those days. The way the pieces were made didn't allow for anything like the consistency achieved today with CNC lathes, as used by almost every mouthpiece maker out there, including Bach.

When I was at the shop last week I was shown the safe that holds all the mouthpieces, hand selected by Mr Bach himself, that represent "exactly" what each of the models was supposed to be like, according to Mr Bach. Each of those pieces was digitised and that info was used to program the CNC machines that now cut Bach mouthpieces. The consistency of Bachs mouthpieces today is better than it ever has been, due to the method that they are produced.

But there-in lies the rub. Each one of the "perfect" mouthpieces, which has then been copied hundreds of times over, wasn't one that Chris (and others like him) think are the "very special indeed" mouthpieces. If only Mr Bach had chosen one of those...

M
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« Reply #214 on: Sep 04, 2007, 02:28AM »

G'day all,

I find it interesting that people have this "rose coloured glasses" view of NY and Mt Vernon Bach product. That they are the "Holy Grail".

That contrasts with the widely help belief that, as stated by Sam Burtis, and echoed by many others, "if you want a custom mouthpiece, line up a dozen Bach's and find the one you like". Sam, I believe, was talking about the Mt Vernon and early Elkhart era. Consistency was not something that was a big selling point for Bach in those days. The way the pieces were made didn't allow for anything like the consistency achieved today with CNC lathes, as used by almost every mouthpiece maker out there, including Bach.

When I was at the shop last week I was shown the safe that holds all the mouthpieces, hand selected by Mr Bach himself, that represent "exactly" what each of the models was supposed to be like, according to Mr Bach. Each of those pieces was digitised and that info was used to program the CNC machines that now cut Bach mouthpieces. The consistency of Bachs mouthpieces today is better than it ever has been, due to the method that they are produced.

But there-in lies the rub. Each one of the "perfect" mouthpieces, which has then been copied hundreds of times over, wasn't one that Chris (and others like him) think are the "very special indeed" mouthpieces. If only Mr Bach had chosen one of those...

M

Some things come to mind Matt....
I've found just as much variation with CNC produced mouthpieces as I have with traditionally made examples.... and trust me, I've compared LOTS of examples. It's in the polishing... all that care in cutting is at the mercy of the polishing process. The maker Parke has tried to escape this by leaving the finish as it comes out of the Lathe... but people don't like the look... they look cheap and unfinished.. when they are in fact expensive and accurate.
Sam was, I think, talking mainly about New York Bachs... he even thinks that the Mt Vernons were of lesser quality than the early mouthpieces. So the 'holy grail' attitude is not about to be dismissed by Mr Burtis.
I've thought about making really fine mouthpieces a lot... and some of my ideas have turned into products.
I've been happy that these designs worked in the way that I intended, but I have found that examples from a CNC made batch will vary considerably, from great to merely acceptable.
I have come to the conclusion that the only way to produce invariably fine mouthpieces is to finish and test each mouthpiece by hand... and only let the very finest through the system... exactly what Larry Minick did. The down-side of this is that each mouthpiece will be different.
Many years ago, I took half-a-dozen mouthpieces of the 1 1/2G 'copy' type and worked each by hand, until I had what I thought was a really fine mouthpiece. These were then simply stamped 'Enigma'. They mostly went to my students at the time. I recently had a request from a player who had tried one of these, to create an 'Enigma' from one of these 1 1/2G copies that he supplied.
The mouthpiece that came was not at all good and I had little hope of turning it into anything decent. I worked away at it and as luck would have it, it turned into one of the best mouthpieces I have played... not only was I happy to give it the 'Enigma' stamp, but I felt considerable regret when I had to send it back to it's owner.
That was lucky, as not every mouthpiece works out in the end..
Please don't send me mouthpieces for a magic fix... you could end up with a paperweight. I might try to do some more hand finishing... but I'd prefer to choose my own start point.
Mt Vernon greatness a myth ??? You choose.... oh, by the way... I'll give a nice new Bach 1 1/2G to anybody that wants to give me their old Mt Vernon 1 1/2G....  Evil
Chris Stearn.

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« Reply #215 on: Sep 04, 2007, 06:29AM »

So...I started a reply here, and it grew.

Now it is a stand-alone post.

Who in their right mind chooses ANY mouthpiece? And...how, as well?

Here.

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,35533.0.html

Put on your rose colored classes...or take 'em off, whatever best suits your purposes...and dive on in.

See ya...

S.
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« Reply #216 on: Sep 04, 2007, 07:24PM »

Hold on a sec, Chris.  I'm looking at a Laskey 85MD and sure enough I can see horizontal cut marks (I'm guessing from the lathe), also the inside of the cup is decidedly matte.  Word on the street is that Scott is using a CNC machine, but I bet that Gabe would confirm that the suckers play differently from one to the next.  There might be more than buffing at work here.  Plating?  Quality of metal perhaps?
Talk about mouthpiece voodoo!
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« Reply #217 on: Sep 04, 2007, 09:07PM »

I sold Gabe two 93Ds that couldn't have been more different from each other. There is a certain degree of variation in the Laskey line.
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« Reply #218 on: Sep 05, 2007, 01:45AM »

Hold on a sec, Chris.  I'm looking at a Laskey 85MD and sure enough I can see horizontal cut marks (I'm guessing from the lathe), also the inside of the cup is decidedly matte.  Word on the street is that Scott is using a CNC machine, but I bet that Gabe would confirm that the suckers play differently from one to the next.  There might be more than buffing at work here.  Plating?  Quality of metal perhaps?
Talk about mouthpiece voodoo!
-->grub

A lot of makers leave the inside of mouthpieces pretty much as machined... it's one job less to do... they still vary.... even CNC . These variations have to be really tiny... but it seems that the face can detect these things... and they make a difference. Plating ??? That's hard to see as a factor... it really is thin,thin,thin. I'm still thinking polishing.... and I don't know how tool wear works on a CNC. I've seen just as big differences, piece against piece with CNC as traditional lathes.
Just a thought... if we could buy the exact same mouthpiece each time, we would end up buying far fewer mouthpieces... no incentive for the maker there then.
Chris Stearn.
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« Reply #219 on: Sep 05, 2007, 03:09AM »

We make a lot of stuff for ESA (European Space Agency).

I can bet you Machined on a decent CNC with top cutters and cooling all the pieces are identical. Now I do not think Bach turns their MPC on a 1,000,000 Euro CNC.

I happen to play a Bach 1G I bought in the mid 80's. I just tried a bunch op MPC and that was the one that fitted. I never look at brand or size I just go for comfort and sound.
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