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The Trombone ForumCreation and PerformanceMusical Miscellany(Moderators: JP, BGuttman) Doing the right thing vs. losing friends
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slidemasterx

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« on: Mar 19, 2006, 10:02PM »

I, together with 4 of my friends who are aspiring jazz musicians decided to order some jazz materials online and split the shipping cost because our university library didn’t have any jazz materials like jazz theory books and improvisation books.

This I’m going to tell you about the situation here. I don’t support piracy and copyright infringement put it’s just over the roof around here. Even the cops buy pirated Cds and stuff. A lot of students and teachers photocopy stuff from the university library.

Do bear in mind that a lot of people are like that around here. When they see you with a book that looks interesting, they will ask if they could copy it.

So the eldest of the 5 of us told us that if we’re going to spend a lot of money on the books that we order, we’re not just going to let someone photocopy it. 40 bucks might not be that big to you but here in the Philippines, it takes a while to save up for that money. I spent $400 on books, I’m not going to let anyone copy it and he spends $10 for photocopying it. It’s unfair on my part.

So I was having a chat with other friends besides the jazzers and they were despising one of my friends who ordered the improvisation book because he didn’t lend it to anyone. I was thinking, this could have probably happened to me too and they could have hated me for it. They failed to put themselves in his shoes. What’s your opinion on this?
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« Reply #1 on: Mar 19, 2006, 10:21PM »

Just charge people ten bucks.  Eventually you'll make your money back.  Oh, right...that copyright thing.  Well, someone might come after you for that.

I was just curious, do people smoke alot of that "alternative" tobacco in the Philippines?  I've heard they do, but I just wanted to ask you.  No offense intended.
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slidemasterx

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« Reply #2 on: Mar 19, 2006, 10:38PM »

What I meant about the 10 bucks was what a photocopying shop charges to copy a book. I'm not letting anyone copy my books no matter what. I worked hard for that cash.

About the alternative tobacco, I've only seen old people in rural areas smoke those things. They just carry around some leaves (I don't know what kind) and onion skin I think and make the tobacco on the spot. Just a tradition that they brought from the old times when there weren't any cigarettes for sale.
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« Reply #3 on: Mar 19, 2006, 10:45PM »

It'd cost them 20.  10 for you, 10 for the copies.
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« Reply #4 on: Mar 20, 2006, 01:16AM »

Copyright issues aside (between you and your conscience), if the financial backgrounds are equal it is only fair if your friend buys some books and lets you copy them. It is a two way street.

Personally I don't copy books. However, I have copied pages out of books. If I find myself wanting more than a few pages then I go and buy it. Having said that, if I were broke I would probably be more inclined to copy.
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« Reply #5 on: Mar 20, 2006, 06:58AM »

What Would J. J. Johnson Do? Stand your ground, buddy. Real friends don't break your morality. I have learned that things worth learning and studying are worth paying for. Here's some words from wiser men than myself...

"Art, like morality, consists of drawing the line somewhere."
ó G.K. Chesterton, English essayist and poet (1874-1936)

"In law a man is guilty when he violates the rights of others. In ethics he is guilty if he only thinks of doing so."
ó Immanuel Kant, Prussian geographer and philosopher (1724-1804)

In the End,
we will remember
not the words of our enemies,
but the silence of our friends.
- Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Michael Lawson
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« Reply #6 on: Mar 21, 2006, 05:54AM »

Hang on... if your mate copies your book, how does that make you any worse off?  It's not as if he's wearing it out, is it?

I say lend people your stuff.  If they copy it, you're no worse off when you get it back, and the fact that they copied it is none of your affair.

When your freind has something you want to borrow, they'll be more likely to lend it to you if you've done the same for them.
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« Reply #7 on: Mar 21, 2006, 06:08AM »

For some thinking on the deeper level - the personal level - of piracy, see my article on the subject at:

http://www.yeodoug.com/resources/faq/faq_text/copyright.html

-Douglas Yeo
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Douglas Yeo   

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BFW
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« Reply #8 on: Mar 21, 2006, 07:01AM »

Quote from: "virtualhaggis"
Copyright issues aside


Whatever the standard practice is in slidemasterx's country, copyright issues are important.  It seems hypocritical to me to decide that other people cannot copy your material solely because you spent a bunch of money on it, when you might just as quickly have copied their material (legally or illegally obtained).  The real issue to me is that the material was purchased legally in one case, and illegally copied in the other.

On a more official note, the forum does not condone violations of copyright law, and asks that people not post topics dealing with bootleg recordings, music, or texts.  However, I think the discussion here is quite valuable, dealing as it does with the motivations behind these things, as well as differences in standards in different places, rather than offering or requesting bootleg materials, and so I encourage continuation.
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Brian

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« Reply #9 on: Mar 21, 2006, 08:00AM »

Quote from: "BFW"
On a more official note, the forum does not condone violations of copyright law, and asks that people not post topics dealing with bootleg recordings, music, or texts.  However, I think the discussion here is quite valuable, dealing as it does with the motivations behind these things, as well as differences in standards in different places, rather than offering or requesting bootleg materials, and so I encourage continuation.


There is a wide difference between attitudes.  I used to be on the Ani DiFranco mailing list.  Ms. DiFranco herself said that if you can afford it please pay for your albums, if you can't it is ok to copy a friend's.  Fans traded bootleged concert tapes openly on her list.  My ex was enthralled with a certain artist who shall remain nameless who never released a solo album.  He recorded with a group and did solo concerts but no solo albums.  I made a bootleg recording of one of his solo concerts which she enjoyed greatly.  On this artist's mailing list one of the other members bemoaned that there were no solo recordings.  My ex sent her an email mentioning the bootleg recording and offered to make her a copy.  The other fan freaked out, notified the artitist's publicist, the FBI, publically disclosed the private email and rebuked her on the list.  You'd think we robbed a bank!  We never heard from the publicist nor the FBI so I guess they didn't think it was as big a deal as the other rabid fan.
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« Reply #10 on: Mar 21, 2006, 08:19AM »

Quote from: "brucejackson"
There is a wide difference between attitudes.


And there are differences in laws.  But the attitudes of individual artists do not constitute the law.
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Brian

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virtualhaggis

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« Reply #11 on: Mar 21, 2006, 09:39AM »

Quote from: "BFW"
Quote from: "virtualhaggis"
Copyright issues aside


Whatever the standard practice is in slidemasterx's country, copyright issues are important.  


I agree that they are important. I merely did not want to be a judge on the issue - especially since I can afford to buy the material (CD, music, whatever) - and do buy it - whereas people from poorer countries may not be able to. To be philosophical about it in the long term one might see that a music student from a poor country copying music will deprive the creators of their royalties in the short-term (however, since the aforementioned student would not have been able to afford it, this is debatable), in the long term the student may grow up to be a practising professional, paying royalties for music performed at gigs; and maybe even teaching and recommending music to their students. At the end of the day, some royalties may be forthcoming, whereas if the student did not make it (due to being unable to afford any music there would have been no royalties at all.

However - copyright lawyers are not known to be philosophical.

Having said all that: I want artists to continue recording. I want composers to keep writing. Buy the stuff if you can afford it. Don't be mean!

btw Brian, I agree with all your points. And those of Doug Yeo.
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« Reply #12 on: Mar 21, 2006, 09:57AM »

I don't have any problem with someone borrowing my books, just as long as only one person is using it at any given time. Basically, take it, use it for a while, then give it back. Don't copy it.

Granted, you're right, I used to get copies of Arban's exercises etc from my lesson teachers. Fortunately, I have that now.

That's another thing. I don't mind lending something to someone so they can try it out, because then I could be saving them 50 bucks they didn't want to spend. If they like it, they should get it (and frequently do). If not, they're not out a chunck of change and it's all good.
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BGuttman
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« Reply #13 on: Mar 21, 2006, 01:50PM »

Slidemasterx's country is not alone in ignoring copyright laws.  As a matter of fact, our main trading partner, China, is pretty cavalier about that too.  You can get "broken" copies of Windows XP that will install without a serial number almost anywhere in the country.  They also have counterfeit copies of most popular CD's and computer programs.

Counterfeit software and other intellectual property is common in Russia, too (sorry, Dmitri_K).

That doesn't make it right.

I used to think that Borland (later bought up by Corel) had the right approach to software copyright: Software is like a book.  You can read it, or I can read it.  But we both can't read it at the same time.  So if you have two computers that are not used simultaneously, you can install it on both.  But you cannot use the software in two places at the same time.

At the other end of the scale you have Paranoid Bill Gates who will restrict your ability to use his software even if you are duly licensed. (Note that if you change your computer's configuration, Windoze will insist on re-registering itself.  After 5 such times, the software will refuse to re-register.)

I agree with the loan as a sample.  In fact, many artists will allow you to sample their albums with free MP3 files on their Web sites.  They only want you to buy the album if you like it.  But if you like it and want it, you should buy it!

Btw, Dubya, your teacher giving you a copy of one exercise from an Arban's book is legitimate; it is for educational purposes.  But making a wholesale copy of a copyrighted version is not OK.  My teacher gave me a photocopy of the Remington Warmups (the original version) when I was beginning lessons, but I bought a copy of the Hunsberger edition as soon as I found out about it.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #14 on: Mar 21, 2006, 02:02PM »

Dont do it man. That stuff is sleazy.

I also feel pretty strongly because i just dropped about 35 bucks on a piece of music and a book. Hehe. If you were able to equally share the book with your friends, than that would be fine too, kind of like a timeshare but that seems to not be working.
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« Reply #15 on: Mar 21, 2006, 05:04PM »

Whatever your view, consider if you were the artist, author etc...how would you feel being cheated out of royalties?

It ain't right.
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slidemasterx

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« Reply #16 on: Mar 21, 2006, 09:49PM »

Please bear in mind that I’m not the one copying stuff. I have a shelf full of books that I bought. Check my first post, I’m talking about my friends who are looked down by their friends because they refuse to lend their books.

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Copyright issues aside (between you and your conscience), if the financial backgrounds are equal it is only fair if your friend buys some books and lets you copy them. It is a two way street.


Well if I were to put copyright issues aside, there would still be a problem because they will never buy books. They just get through life by copying stuff.

Quote
Hang on... if your mate copies your book, how does that make you any worse off? It's not as if he's wearing it out, is it?

I say lend people your stuff. If they copy it, you're no worse off when you get it back, and the fact that they copied it is none of your affair.

When your freind has something you want to borrow, they'll be more likely to lend it to you if you've done the same for them.




Well I guess it none of my business if they copy it but the problem is about the money. Things are so expensive here and to be able to save up money is hard even if you have a job. For example if I buy a bunch of books totaling up to $300. 300 bucks probably isn’t much for some but here that’s 2 months worth of salary already. No student with a part time job can even be able to save up for that much. Why? Because part time jobs around here only pay about 30 cents an hour. (That’s in $) 30 cents an hour is ok if you want to buy food here but if you want to buy something from the internet, it would take years so save up.

I don’t have a part time job but the marching band I’m in pays us 142, 107, and 71 bucks every semester depending on our level of playing. And that marching band is like hell, standing in front of the scorching sun for up to 4 hours while the ROTC do their thing.

So it would take up to 2 years for me to save up for those books if I include the shipping costs. Sounds unrealistic? It’s true and it’s the only way we students here earn enough money to buy from the Internet.

Now here comes some guy who tries to copy all the books using his daily allowance without working at all.  

Now tell me you won’t get p****d if that happened to you…
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« Reply #17 on: Mar 23, 2006, 12:34PM »

Quote from: "slidemasterx"
Please bear in mind that Iím not the one copying stuff. I have a shelf full of books that I bought.


 Good!

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Iím talking about my friends who are looked down by their friends because they refuse to lend their books.


I assume that you do not look down on people who refuse to lend you their books, and that you do not make a habit of copying material from others.   Good!

Quote
So it would take up to 2 years for me to save up for those books if I include the shipping costs. Sounds unrealistic? Itís true and itís the only way we students here earn enough money to buy from the Internet.

Now here comes some guy who tries to copy all the books using his daily allowance without working at all.


Let's assume that two people obtain the book legally, one from the publisher and one from a discount store.  The discount store charges 25% of the publisher's price.  If you were the one who obtained the book from the publisher, would you be angry because someone else obtained it legally at a lower cost?

If you purchased a book that cost about the same to buy as it would to copy, would you lend it out for copying?

The issues to me, plain and simple, are first that in reality the person who obtains the book at lower cost does so via illegitimate means, and second that he does so by taking advantage of your legitimately obtained copy.

In any event, I think it's reasonable of you to refuse to allow your friends to copy the entire book, and it's reasonable of you to encourage them to obtain the book legitimately.  If your only goal is to have them spend as much money on the book as you have, I think that's unreasonable.  Perhaps they could find a used copy or an older edition, either of which might be less expensive.

However, if your friends only wish to copy small portions of the book for educational purposes, I think that's reasonable and legitimate, so long as you trust them to take care of your material and not deprive you of the use of it when you need it.  You are free, however, to refuse; it's your book.
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Brian

Our supreme responsibility is the moral obligation to be intelligent. -- Oliver L. Reiser
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