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Author Topic: John Cage.... Genius?  (Read 7491 times)
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Posaune

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« on: Mar 20, 2006, 06:22PM »

I was reading up on him today.  He seems very eccentric and odd.  

or maybe he was just a genius.
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HuskerTX

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« Reply #1 on: Mar 20, 2006, 08:27PM »

He had some good points. I've had many a discussion with people over whether 4'33" is actually music. He is an important composer of a certain period/genre... although personally I wouldn't call it "genius" because frankly, to me, his music sounds bad. That's just my opinion. I think musical genius throughout history has included a certain accessibility. Anyone can listen to Bach or Mozart or Beethoven and at least appreciate that it is good... although the same cannot be said for such "luminaries" as Milton Babbit or John Cage.
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Posaune

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« Reply #2 on: Mar 20, 2006, 08:43PM »

is 4'33 music?

I belive for us to debate whether it is music or not lies in what emotion it is trying to express.  

If it is one of dissatisfaction and protest then, yes it is music.

If there is no emotion to express then, no it is not music.
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MonsterAar
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« Reply #3 on: Mar 20, 2006, 11:03PM »

we've been through this before.......I think i might have been ther person to start the topic....i can't remember....anyway search chit-chat
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Luke
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bickle
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« Reply #4 on: Mar 21, 2006, 04:49AM »

I think it's easy to get mired in his quirky pieces, and not realize that he does have profound classicist composing chops that he chooses to not flex in favor of a more experimental approach. If you look a little deeper into his catalog, I think you will find undeniable evidence that he really does know what he's doing.
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BFW
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« Reply #5 on: Mar 21, 2006, 05:28AM »

Yes, we have been through this kind of discussion before, but it's still fun.

Quote from: "Posaune"
I belive for us to debate whether it is music or not lies in what emotion it is trying to express.
...  
If there is no emotion to express then, no it is not music.


Completely disagree.  Emotional expression is completely irrelevant to whether something is music.  You can listen to a fugue and hear that it's music without knowing whether the composer was feeling expressive or working on his counterpoint.  You can be emotionally moved by music without that being anything related to the intentions of the composer.  You can appreciate and enjoy music without being emotionally moved.

Re Cage, I agree with bickle.  Cage wrote a lot more than 4'33", and it's a shame that people get too stuck on that one thing.
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« Reply #6 on: Mar 21, 2006, 02:04PM »

I've heard some of his other stuff and it's really just mind-boggling that he even thought of it. Good stuff to get your creative juices stirring.
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Andrew the Crazy Radical Hippy/Feminist Anarchist

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slideride
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« Reply #7 on: Mar 21, 2006, 10:22PM »

his 4 minutes 33 seconds was the last piece of truly original music ever written.

justin
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prototypedenNIS
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« Reply #8 on: Mar 22, 2006, 07:12PM »

Quote from: "ABinkard"
He had some good points. I've had many a discussion with people over whether 4'33" is actually music. He is an important composer of a certain period/genre... although personally I wouldn't call it "genius" because frankly, to me, his music sounds bad. That's just my opinion. I think musical genius throughout history has included a certain accessibility. Anyone can listen to Bach or Mozart or Beethoven and at least appreciate that it is good... although the same cannot be said for such "luminaries" as Milton Babbit or John Cage.


We could also listen to Shpohr... he had very accessable music but was almost forgotten because Mozart and Beethoven actually did something interesting.
I love John Cage's prepared piano works.  I would say that he is a genius.
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« Reply #9 on: Mar 23, 2006, 12:08AM »

I would say john cage is a genius, Genius's are usually the ones who tried something new, innovated instead of imitated. I think the greatest genius lies in the ability to depart from what in comfortable and dive into what is awkward and strange to the ear.

If all sound is this giant solar system we can classify it as lets just say the music universe. What is popularly believed as as "music" or "consonant" is a few solar systems in this universe. These innovators just added a few solar systems into the box that we consider music.

John Cage started alot of his avant garde work while working as a  piano accompanist at my school, so there is a very large influence here, we have had many preformers of his peices come and do there thing. Amazing... Margret Leng Tan
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jerePosaune
« Reply #10 on: Apr 11, 2006, 06:39PM »

Quote from: "slideride"
his 4 minutes 33 seconds was the last piece of truly original music ever written.

justin


what an uneducated thing to say. and why would you place your concrete judgemental opinion onto everyone else?
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slideride
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« Reply #11 on: Apr 11, 2006, 07:53PM »

uneducated?

when you make "silence" music, you have reached the last innovation... the rest of the music has been done many many times before by countless numbers of composers and performers... you know this as well as i do... reduce, re-use, recycle... the name of the game is theft, brother.

"more than one person doing a single type of music is one music too many..." John Cage.

and as for your other comment... it was my opinion... you choose to take it or leave it... not belittle it...

fast and bulbous, got me?

justin
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ParLawGod
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« Reply #12 on: Apr 11, 2006, 09:03PM »

Quote
Re Cage, I agree with bickle. Cage wrote a lot more than 4'33", and it's a shame that people get too stuck on that one thing.

Yep - I also like "Music of Changes" and "Imaginary Landscape No.4".

With "Music of Changes" Cage made decisions using the I Ching (book of changes - a fortune telling book by the Chinese).

In "Imaginary Landscape No.4" Cage used 12 radios, 24 performers, and 1 conductor.  Very unique.

Prepared piano - innovation of Cage

Several people I know see him as more of a "unique" and "non-traditional" person than a "genius" person.
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slideride
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« Reply #13 on: Apr 11, 2006, 09:08PM »

i love the prepared piano stuff, also.

another innovation, for sure.

justin
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jerePosaune
« Reply #14 on: Apr 11, 2006, 10:57PM »

Quote from: "slideride"
uneducated?

when you make "silence" music, you have reached the last innovation... the rest of the music has been done many many times before by countless numbers of composers and performers... you know this as well as i do... reduce, re-use, recycle... the name of the game is theft, brother.

"more than one person doing a single type of music is one music too many..." John Cage.

and as for your other comment... it was my opinion... you choose to take it or leave it... not belittle it...

fast and bulbous, got me?

justin



well to john cage the next 'innovation' was silence. when and under whose authority did john cage decide what the next thing is for everyone else? and was the next 25 years of john cages music now to be looked down upon becuase it is un innovative?
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Frank B
« Reply #15 on: Apr 12, 2006, 04:24AM »

Quote from: "slideride"
uneducated?

when you make "silence" music, you have reached the last innovation... the rest of the music has been done many many times before by countless numbers of composers and performers... you know this as well as i do... reduce, re-use, recycle... the name of the game is theft, brother.


Its not about silence, nor does it have it...
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grub
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« Reply #16 on: Apr 12, 2006, 07:40AM »

Cage didn't invent prepared piano either.  He took the idea of some west coast cats and ran with it.  I can't remember the name of the composer to come up with it, but maybe I'll browse through some of my music history notes. . .
-->grub

*smacks forehead* Henry Cowell came up with the idea first, but to give Cage credit, he took the idea and explored the possibilities of it thoroughly.
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bickle
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« Reply #17 on: Apr 12, 2006, 07:46AM »

According to the wiki, Cage invented the term, but credits others with inventing the concept:

Quote
John Cage was undoubtedly the composer who put the "prepared piano" concept on the world map, and coined the term. He credited Henry Cowell, and, to a lesser extent, Erik Satie, for contributing to the idea, and was probably unaware of many other precedents described below.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prepared_piano
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grub
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« Reply #18 on: Apr 12, 2006, 07:56AM »

Bick beat me to it.
; )
-->grub
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bickle
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« Reply #19 on: Apr 12, 2006, 09:00AM »

I am a quick wiki. I did not know that on my own.
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