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Author Topic: Mouthpiece Confusion  (Read 61338 times)
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wichman9
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« on: Jun 25, 2007, 11:18AM »

OK, so I am a high school trombone player and I recently bought a Bach 42 BO. It came with a 6 1/2 AL mouthpiece, and the salesman said I could get a new mouthpiece for free if I didn't want that one. Meanwhile, my private teacher loaned me one of his old mouthpieces it is a Yamaha 57, it's an old model they don't make anymore (or so I was told). Anyway,I was wondering if I could get some reccomendations for a mouthpiece, I dabble in some Bass tromboning in my jazz band, and I don't want to lose my low range with a 6 1/2 AL, that's why I have the Yamaha because it's a little bigger. Can i get a few reccommendations for a new mouthpiece?
« Last Edit: Nov 24, 2007, 05:00PM by RedHotMama » Logged
BGuttman
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« Reply #1 on: Jun 25, 2007, 11:22AM »

OK, so I am a high school trombone player and I recently bought a Bach 42 BO. It came with a 6 1/2 AL mouthpiece, and the salesman said I could get a new mouthpiece for free if I didn't want that one. Meanwhile, my private teacher loaned me one of his old mouthpieces it is a Yamaha 57, it's an old model they don't make anymore (or so I was told). Anyway,I was wondering if I could get some reccomendations for a mouthpiece, I dabble in some Bass tromboning in my jazz band, and I don't want to lose my low range with a 6 1/2 AL, that's why I have the Yamaha because it's a little bigger. Can i get a few reccommendations for a new mouthpiece?

I also have a Yamaha 57, which I don't use much anymore.  It's about the size of a Bach 3G; maybe more toward a 2G.  The 2G is a "small bass" or "transition" mouthpiece for players who want to do both kinds of parts on one mouthpiece.

Btw, I'm going to move this to Mouthpieces, where you will get more suggestions.  Fasten seat belts...
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #2 on: Jun 25, 2007, 02:34PM »

OK, so I am a high school trombone player and I recently bought a Bach 42 BO. It came with a 6 1/2 AL mouthpiece, and the salesman said I could get a new mouthpiece for free if I didn't want that one. Meanwhile, my private teacher loaned me one of his old mouthpieces it is a Yamaha 57, it's an old model they don't make anymore (or so I was told). Anyway,I was wondering if I could get some reccomendations for a mouthpiece, I dabble in some Bass tromboning in my jazz band, and I don't want to lose my low range with a 6 1/2 AL, that's why I have the Yamaha because it's a little bigger. Can i get a few reccommendations for a new mouthpiece?

Ask Doug Elliott.
He is around and KNOWS !!!!!!!!!!!
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« Reply #3 on: Jun 25, 2007, 07:19PM »

in my opinion the 57 is a small bass mouthpiece, NOT a tenor mouthpiece, i used a 58 on my bass for a while for smaller bass work before moving to my 1. 6 1/2 are your stock mouthpiece and are generally not that great, even guys who like something similar usually fairly quickly got to 6 1/4 or 6 3/4. If you want to keep your low chops (and I'm not saying you can't have low chops on a 6.5, it is mostly your own strength) i'd recomend about a 4 or 5g. The 4 can be a bit of work in high school but if you can control it sounds great.
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« Reply #4 on: Jun 25, 2007, 07:36PM »

The 57 is indeed not made anymore. The Schilke 57 is, you may want to try one of those. At least in Schilke's specs, the 57 is only about .3mm smaller than a Yamaha 58, which is still made.

If anything, unless you plan to move into more full-time bass tromboning, I'd go just a tad smaller, like a Yamaha 56. Only about .25-.3mm smaller than a 57. In Bach sizes, in between a 2G and 3G, maybe closer to the 3G. If you mostly play bass, and are looking for a mpce. for doubling on tenor, that size range will probably be OK. The conventional wisdom for sizes on large tenors usually puts players on a size between 50 and 53, in Schilke/Yamaha numbers, Bach 5G to 3G.
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« Reply #5 on: Jun 26, 2007, 09:16AM »

Without knowledge of you, your playing, or where you're coming from, no one can give you valid advice.

But I'm going to suggest staying with what you have and using both, the 6-1/2 for tenor and the 57 for bass.  That will give you some perspective to base future opinions on.
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« Reply #6 on: Jun 27, 2007, 01:16PM »

I like the 6.5 and 57/whatever combo. That will give you a different enough sound to warrant changing mouthpieces. I wouldn't go for anything like a 3G or smaller, as I don't think it will give you enough difference. Unless you want to play a 3G for everything that is. :D


You might like the FAXX 1.5G, especially if the 57 is a (discontinued) loaner.



Congratulations on the new horn!
Every now and then I really think about going to a 42B with a 6.5 and a 1.5G; I think it's a GREAT combo.
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« Reply #7 on: Jun 30, 2007, 06:47AM »


used  6 1/2 s  are easy to find 
 so  i would  trade it for   a  new   mpc    5g  5gb   --
 you  will still hhave low  range  even w  the 6 1/2 
one size  doesnt  fit  all  // players facial structure  differ
-----
sometimesit  takes  years      to find  an optimun   fit [or direction]
 of  maybe  playing  next to  doug  on  a  tour  !!!!!!!!!
------------
  shilke 57  is  towards the  large   size  for  a  42b --
however  6 1/2  have been  and continue to be   used  w  42b  by   some  players --
=========
adjust your   ears   to  the sounds  of  bass   and   large tenor 
have  a  sound  concept  !!!!!!!! Pant Pant Pant Pant
==========
stick  a 1 1/2  g in the 42  -ITS STILL NOT  GONNA BLOW LIKE  A BASS BONE
===========
dont  be  a  DABBLER  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!  BE  A DOUBLER
========
your  low range  depends on  flexibility 
=======
just  like  high  range 
the magic is in the  player






OK, so I am a high school trombone player and I recently bought a Bach 42 BO. It came with a 6 1/2 AL mouthpiece, and the salesman said I could get a new mouthpiece for free if I didn't want that one. Meanwhile, my private teacher loaned me one of his old mouthpieces it is a Yamaha 57, it's an old model they don't make anymore (or so I was told). Anyway,I was wondering if I could get some reccomendations for a mouthpiece, I dabble in some Bass tromboning in my jazz band, and I don't want to lose my low range with a 6 1/2 AL, that's why I have the Yamaha because it's a little bigger. Can i get a few reccommendations for a new mouthpiece?
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« Reply #8 on: Jun 30, 2007, 07:01AM »


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dont  be  a  DABBLER  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!  BE  A DOUBLER
========

Now that's a great line!!

Andrew (who is making the transition between the two...)
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« Reply #9 on: Jul 06, 2007, 08:28PM »

I'm just a dabbler, so use thine grain of salt.

For Bass Trombone I'm happy with a Schilke 59, although my G&W Don Harwood doesn't break up as easily at the higher volume levels like the 59 does. 

The Bach 42 is more of a large bore tenor than a Bass.  I tend to favor a Bach 5GS on the tenor side.  You might want something slightly bigger for a 42, especially if you're gonna be playing Bass Trombone parts.  Maybe a Bach 1.5G, 2G, 3G, or 4G.  It seems like the Yamaha 57 is well suited(maybe on the big side) for the horn and its intended use.  Give it a couple weeks and see how you feel about it then.  You should be able to guess if you want to go bigger or smaller at that point.

For me adjusting to a larger mouthpiece takes longer than adjusting to a smaller one.  So don't dismiss a piece based on first impressions.  Give it a couple weeks, or a month and then compare it to what you're used to.  But at first glance a 6 1/2AL is most likely too small for the horn and it's intended use.  Not that you can't do everything you need to on a 6 1/2, but you might find it easier on something with a little more room.
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« Reply #10 on: Jul 09, 2007, 02:01PM »

The 6.5AL size pieces (Yamaha/Schilke 50, Wick 6BL etc) are good all around tenor mouthpieces, especially for students.  The 57/2G or 58/1.5G sizes are great for bass trombone, especially students and doublers.  I played a 6.5 and 1.5G as I was learning large tenor and bass and after years of playing larger size mouthpieces I'm finding myself moving back toward those sizes... going back to my roots or just returning to where I should have been all along Clever
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« Reply #11 on: Nov 23, 2007, 07:35AM »

Remington anyone?
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BGuttman
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« Reply #12 on: Nov 23, 2007, 09:55AM »

Remington anyone?

The Remington is not made any more although there seem to be an awful lot of them on Ebay.  They usually came on a special shank to fit the Elkhart Conn 8/88H (although I have one with a small shank).  The first "good" mouthpiece I got (from my 2nd teacher, who studied with Remington) was a Remington small shank.

You can get very similar results from a 5G-sized mouthpiece.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #13 on: Nov 23, 2007, 06:18PM »

Well that shows you how out of touch I am! When did they stop making this mouthpiece? I use a Remington....my old teacher, Fred Marzan, had me get one the same time I got my 88H. Apparently I was taught trombone the same way Remington did. Marzan was a student of Bill Bell. So he passed on some great knowledge. He claimed it was the last mouthpiece I'd buy....he was right. I would recommend grabbing up a Remington if possible. But, I am biased and have used this mouthpiece exclusively for 16 years.
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BGuttman
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« Reply #14 on: Nov 24, 2007, 06:03AM »

Please don't get me wrong, Paisios, I played a Remington for quite a while until I decided I needed something a little bigger and moved to the 4 rim (first a 4C, then a 4G when I got a large bore trombone, and now a Wick 4BS).  I keep my Remington in the case with the "emergency trombone" in my trunk and use it from time to time.

Conn probably stopped offering the Remington when Chief died.  At one time there was a Marcellus (I believe it was from Benge, but they were all under one roof then).  One Conn I got came with something called "Artist", which sure felt like a Remington.

There is probably a set of Elliott parts you can buy that would come close to a Remington, but Doug would probably have to tell us which.

Unfortunately "endorsed" mouthpieces don't go on forever, and often fall victim to changing tastes.  You don't see a Bell tuba mouthpiece anymore, nor a Pryor trombone (it's quite small by today's standards).  While we revere Remington for his teaching legacy and the huge number of his students now teaching, today's preeminent educators and players are flogging their own mouthpieces and methods.  Look at the Christian Lindberg and Joe Alessi series of mouthpieces.
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« Reply #15 on: Nov 24, 2007, 07:13AM »

Good points. Perhaps it is worthwhile to look into trying a new mouthpiece. Any recommendations for a remington user...I guess a second look at your post is in order!
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« Reply #16 on: Nov 24, 2007, 12:10PM »

Is there anything wrong with your current Remington?

If your Conn trombone has the old shank style, you can't use most of the newer mouthpieces on it.

Doug Elliott offers a special "Remington" shank and backbore but you have to ask for it.

The older Schilke mouthpieces used to have a shank that somehow managed to fit both the Conn taper and the Bach taper.  For you a 51D might be just the ticket (Remington mouthpieces have fairly deep cups).
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #17 on: Nov 24, 2007, 01:13PM »

Okay, I know I'm gonna get shot at when saying this, but for doubling on my Bach 42BO or Blessing B88, I just use my Christian Lindberg 5CL, great high register, and nice low. A lot of people around here don't like them, but the only other mouthpiece I've played on that feels as comfortable would be a Griego and I haven't been able to compare them(humm,,$55.00 Vs. $170.00), plus when I played on it I was still drooling over the Edwards it was in.LOL

It's not the right mouthpiece for a lot of people, but if it fits you like it fits me, then it's a match made in heaven. I'd recommend just getting a silver plated one for doubling, I have a hard time in my pedal range because it's so slippery, I can play the notes if they're like quARTER OR LARGER, BUT UNLESS I WIPE my mouthpiece off, they're hard to set up for. And if you don't like, people say they make a beautiful paperweight.
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« Reply #18 on: Nov 24, 2007, 04:54PM »

Being a Remington user (came with the Conn 88H back in 1966, that's what I used until Doug Elliott fixed me up recently with a set of cups and rim (see my profile) to fit the "R" leadpipe on the new Gen II 88H's. I also play a Conn 36H, 62H, and a MW 450S euphonium on a fairly frequent basis Eeek!. Unfortunately, Doug is "in between" right now as a mouthpiece maker Confused.

There is a Morse taper Bach that will be more congenial with your instrument. The 5GS, 5GB, Wick 5BL and 4BL with the large shank will more than likely suit your needs. IMHO, a 3G or equivalent is bordering on way too big for a large bore tenor trombone. Folks play 'em, though.

The Remington was such a beautiful match for the 88H's back in its day, and they sorta fit the "R" leadpipe on the new 88H's.  Hi

I am fortunate to have my DE set-up :D....perhaps he will be nudged back into business before too long Don't know. In the meantime, watch the TTF classified for something desireable for your use Clever.

Probably not much help, though. >:(
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« Reply #19 on: Nov 26, 2007, 02:59PM »

Thanks for all the info. I was more curious than anything. I will stick with the remington for sure. It's been good to me....and still is today!

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« Reply #20 on: Nov 30, 2007, 07:04AM »

Without knowledge of you, your playing, or where you're coming from, no one can give you valid advice.

But I'm going to suggest staying with what you have and using both, the 6-1/2 for tenor and the 57 for bass.  That will give you some perspective to base future opinions on.

I was going to post something about the 6 1/2AL when I saw this post, so I was then going to say this is pretty wise.  Then I saw it was from Doug and now I'm going to say "he knows what he's talking about"!   :D

Seriously, the 6 1/2AL is a "standard mouthpiece" for a reason.  Perhaps 40 years ago, we all used the 6 1/2 in the 88H, and it was a great sound, blending in with the music of the time, and sounding like a TROMBONE.  Today, everybody seems to want to sound bigger, louder, darker, and sometimes you get a trombone choir that sounds like a swimming pool full of molasses!

In the end, you have to find something that YOU like, that gives a sound that the others in your musical group like.  It can be a difficult balance to find.

The 57?  If you're just going to experiment with Bass Trombone, then it's probably OK.  If you get to the point where you're playing exclusively on Bass, then you will probably want to experiment more with mouthpieces.  Just remember, though, the same thing applies -- YOU have to like it, and others in your group (especially the director) have to like the sound you get on it.
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« Reply #21 on: Nov 30, 2007, 07:05AM »

===========
dont  be  a  DABBLER  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!  BE  A DOUBLER
========

By the way, DJ, do you mind if I add this great line to my sig file?
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« Reply #22 on: Dec 26, 2007, 09:09AM »

Strictly speaking from experience (which I can't say I have much of), a Schilke 51D suited me wonderfully.

Before my high school got a bass trombone, I played the bass parts on my Bach 42 with a Schilke 51D.  For the Ellington stuff we played (written for 3 trombones, neglecting the beautiful bass trombone), I had all the upper register I needed as well.  As far as an all purpose mouthpiece, a 51D, or even the bach 5G (which you could trade to get, yes?) should treat you well.

The deep cup on the Schilke might be a little much, but it's worth the work and can definitely sing in all registers.
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« Reply #23 on: Dec 27, 2007, 12:24PM »

The first 42 I got my hands on came with a 6-1/2A.  I believe it has the same rim and cup as the AL, but the throat and backbore are bigger.  I found it to be a nice starting point with the 42.  You might be able to find one used.  If mine hadn't disappeared into a black hole somewhere, I'd send it to you try.  Doug's advice is probably the best, however.
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« Reply #24 on: Mar 08, 2008, 07:25AM »

Just wondering if anyone can tell me if a Doug Elliott LT and XT series has interchangeable parts? I assume no, but just wanted to double check. ie. Can one rim fit both? What's the major diff in the size 8 and 9 shank?
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« Reply #25 on: Mar 08, 2008, 09:45AM »

The LT and XT mouthpieces use different cup and rim blanks, and I would not expect them to be interchangeable.  Maybe Doug can clear things up better.

The 8 and 9 backbores are different.  Actually, there are 3 large shank backbores; 7, 8, and 9.  The tightest is the 7, and the most open is the 9.  Most people seem to like the 8, which is a nice compromise.  I tried all 3 on my bass setup and for a while I played the 9 but as my percentage of bass trombone playing got smaller I moved to the 8.  Probably should have been there to start.
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« Reply #26 on: Mar 08, 2008, 07:24PM »

Earl Needham wrote:

"Today, everybody seems to want to sound bigger, louder, darker, and sometimes you get a trombone choir that sounds like a swimming pool full of molasses!"

Earl, you said it...... my thoughts exactly. I believe the 'huge' tenor mouthpiece is also part of the problem....... trying to use a particular size of piece just because some advertisement says so and so uses this mega-mouthpiece with all of its 'mega-variations'.

This just hurts students in the long run...... they never get to develop a sound with any 'life' to it...... because they don't use something that might actually fit their own facial and body structure.

If someone wants to sound like a cross between a bass trombone and a euphonium on a tenor trombone, then buy a bass trombone or a euphonium.

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« Reply #27 on: Jun 15, 2008, 03:59PM »

Please don't get me wrong, Paisios, I played a Remington for quite a while until I decided I needed something a little bigger and moved to the 4 rim (first a 4C, then a 4G when I got a large bore trombone, and now a Wick 4BS).  I keep my Remington in the case with the "emergency trombone" in my trunk and use it from time to time.

Conn probably stopped offering the Remington when Chief died.  At one time there was a Marcellus (I believe it was from Benge, but they were all under one roof then).  One Conn I got came with something called "Artist", which sure felt like a Remington.

There is probably a set of Elliott parts you can buy that would come close to a Remington, but Doug would probably have to tell us which.

Unfortunately "endorsed" mouthpieces don't go on forever, and often fall victim to changing tastes.  You don't see a Bell tuba mouthpiece anymore, nor a Pryor trombone (it's quite small by today's standards).  While we revere Remington for his teaching legacy and the huge number of his students now teaching, today's preeminent educators and players are flogging their own mouthpieces and methods.  Look at the Christian Lindberg and Joe Alessi series of mouthpieces.


I'm pretty sure the Marcellus is still around.  One thing I've notices about it is that it has a very shallow cup and a nice open backbore.  This is from comparing it to a Bach 6.5AL.  I play both and love the Marcellus way more.
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« Reply #28 on: Jun 17, 2008, 01:53PM »

I play on a Greg Black 5G, and I really like it.
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« Reply #29 on: Jun 17, 2008, 02:24PM »

I played a 6.5 in varying configurations for 14 years: bach, bach with gold, the 6.5 A, the Megatone, and you can do just about anything on that mouthpiece. 

I've noticed my needs have changed lately so i am trying a bunch of different stuff.  A monette (which i like, but only a couple of things are easier on that pice, maybe not enough to justify the bread unless...) and a bunch of 5-ish pieces to try ...

those ferguson pieces are GREAT!.

but i wouldn't even know what the heck i was looking for has i not played on the same 'piece for 14 years.  now i have a pretty good idea of what I can and can't do easily on that piece.

get to know what you can do on the 6.5 (there's a reason everyone uses one - or did, anyway...) and save the mouthpiece shuffle for when your chops are pretty solid.  When consistency becomes the rule instead of the exception....

just my 2 farthings...

Z
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« Reply #30 on: Jul 10, 2008, 03:18PM »

I change ricently my mouphpiece from 6,1/2 to 5G. It is more universal.
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« Reply #31 on: Jul 11, 2008, 06:13AM »

I change ricently my mouphpiece from 6,1/2 to 5G. It is more universal.

I think that's a rather odd statement.

While the 5G is often provided with new instruments (it used to be a 6 1/2 AL), it is not a "universal" mouthpiece.  If you are getting good results with a 6 1/2 AL, 12C, 22D, or 1G then that is good.  Changing a mouthpiece because you have a problem is reasonable.  Changing it because everybody else uses one (or because [insert trombone God here] uses one) is not a valid reason.  We are all different.  I wouldn't tell you to use the same mouthpiece I do unless you happened to be a clone of me.

Again, if you find a 5G is a better sounding mouthpiece (and they are popular for a reason) that's great.

Did you find the 5G to play better for you?
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« Reply #32 on: Feb 28, 2009, 07:47PM »

First post for me.  I've played the 6.5AL for over 30 years on all my horns and in my opinion it comes down to what fits your face. Quite a few years ago I did some experimenting with a few smaller cups/rims and nothing felt as comfy as the 6.5.  I have no idea how people can play a 12C... just does not feel right for me.

I recently "dabbled" with a few mouth pieces:  Curry 11s, Yamaha 48, and DW7cs.  The curry is a powerfull shallow mouth piece larger than the 12C. The Yamaha's very nice slightly smaller than the 6.5AL but deep. And the Denis Wick 7cs.  I ended up choosing the Denis Wick because it has the same rim or very close to the 6.5AL.  It is shallower and man do I like it. Very clear up to xF and as mentioned in a previous post, the sound is a bit brighter but I guess I don't care anymore!  My point is: go with what feels good and practice your rearend off.

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« Reply #33 on: Feb 28, 2009, 11:27PM »

I speak here as a person with little to no large tenor experience (it's my next instrument purchase- I swear!).
I spent the last week playing my friend's Shires tenor (1YM bell, TB47 slide, red tuning slide, Thayer) with my collection of 5-rimmed tenor pieces (Yamaha Canadian Brass, FAXX 5G, Denis Wick 5BL, Griego 4.5) and her two pieces (Greg Black 5G, Giddings & Webster Euros).
I realized a couple things from this endeavor. 1- I really like Shires. 2. I still don't like Thayers.
After playing Rochuts for hours (some by myself, some with my friend), warming up with different pieces, playing in large rooms, etc. I decided that the best pieces were- G@W Euros, followed by the FAXX and Greg Black 5Gs in a tie. Of course, with my luck, I have a Josef Klier 5BL coming, but didn't come in time to play with a good horn.
Just some of my (not very useful) thoughts on 5-rimmed tenor pieces.
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« Reply #34 on: Jun 10, 2009, 11:56AM »

I think Doug Elliott said it best.
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« Reply #35 on: Sep 15, 2009, 09:28AM »

My 42B came with a 6 1/2A in 1974. The A is the large shank version of the AL.  The "standard" that everyone at that time was either a Bach 5G or a Schilke 51. Some people went to the 51D. I still know a lot of people playing these. The 51 gives me a decent low register such that I can play bass if I have to, although a real bass trombone is always more fun to play and is a better sound to me.

I use a 6 1/2 AL as my small bore tenor mouthpiece. Until this thread, I didn't know anybody who played a 6 1/2 A(L) in a 42B. You'll figure it out.

This might lead to an off-topic discussion, but the 42B / 51 (or equivalent) is versatile enough that some players claim they can do everything on one horn. I disagree.

Cheers,
Martin

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« Reply #36 on: Sep 16, 2009, 03:43PM »

My 42B came with a 6 1/2A in 1974. The A is the large shank version of the AL. 
Cheers,
Martin



That isn't exactly true as both the 6.5A and 6.5AL are available in large shank.  I know this because I have one of each.  The designations seem to have more to do with the backbore and throat sizes.
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« Reply #37 on: Sep 16, 2009, 04:49PM »

That isn't exactly true as both the 6.5A and 6.5AL are available in large shank.  I know this because I have one of each.  The designations seem to have more to do with the backbore and throat sizes.

The only difference between my 6 1/2 A and 6 1/2 AL is the former has a large shank, and the latter has a small shank. If things have change in 35 years, I can accept that. The rim, backbore etc seem to be the same to me. My mouthpieces are as I describe them.
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« Reply #38 on: Sep 16, 2009, 07:23PM »

The only difference between my 6 1/2 A and 6 1/2 AL is the former has a large shank, and the latter has a small shank. If things have change in 35 years, I can accept that. The rim, backbore etc seem to be the same to me. My mouthpieces are as I describe them.

Sorry, but Dan is right. The 6 1/2A and 6 1/2AL is available in BOTH large and small shank, and have been since at least the early 1970s, if not earlier.

The difference has ALWAYS been in the throat and the backbore. According to the Bach catalog, the 6 1/2AL has "The same rim and cup as No. 61⁄2A, but with a larger 'G' deep well rounded. throat and #420 backbore."
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« Reply #39 on: Sep 16, 2009, 08:24PM »

Sorry, but Dan is right. The 6 1/2A and 6 1/2AL is available in BOTH large and small shank, and have been since at least the early 1970s, if not earlier.

The difference has ALWAYS been in the throat and the backbore. According to the Bach catalog, the 6 1/2AL has "The same rim and cup as No. 61⁄2A, but with a larger 'G' deep well rounded. throat and #420 backbore."

I play my 6 1/2 AL daily, and when I travel I take my 6 1/2 A in my BerP (large shank). I've been playing the AL for 34 years, I've had the A for 35 years, and using the BerP off and on for about 20 years. I have never noticed a difference, and I was told there is no other difference than the shank. I wouldn't play the A in a horn, because I have a Schilke 51 for my 42B I've always found more appropriate, going back to the days when supplied mouthpieces were never that good to use.

Of course, that is only my personal experience. Maybe you own both like me, and have measured them more accurately than I can with the old quarter I drop into them, and have noticed something I haven't. Of course, I can't play them side by side, because they don't fit the same horn. The experience on my face is the same, based on the same rim size. For buzzing, the A is fine.

The catalog must be right. I stand corrected, and I'll add that to my book of semi-useless information.

Thanks,
Martin
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« Reply #40 on: Sep 17, 2009, 11:55AM »

Of course, that is only my personal experience. Maybe you own both like me, and have measured them more accurately than I can with the old quarter I drop into them, and have noticed something I haven't.

A digital caliper that can measure in .001 mm increments with ±.0005 mm accuracy can be bought for less than $40. which is a helluva lot more accurate than eyeballing how far a quarter fits in the mpc cup.

Nobody cares HOW long or how often you've been playing your mpcs, how you use them, or whether or not YOU notice a difference. Bottom line: if your "facts" are wrong, they're wrong, and need to be corrected.

And, while we're at it, it's bErp, Buzz Extension and Resistance Piece, not bUrp.
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« Reply #41 on: Sep 17, 2009, 12:39PM »

A digital caliper that can measure in .001 mm increments with ±.0005 mm accuracy can be bought for less than $40. which is a helluva lot more accurate than eyeballing how far a quarter fits in the mpc cup.

Nobody cares HOW long or how often you've been playing your mpcs, how you use them, or whether or not YOU notice a difference. Bottom line: if your "facts" are wrong, they're wrong, and need to be corrected.

And, while we're at it, it's bErp, Buzz Extension and Resistance Piece, not bUrp.

My first flame! Thanks for that. I'll correct my spelling in post, as I'm sure everybody was as upset as you.

You have yourself a great rest of the day.
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« Reply #42 on: Sep 17, 2009, 02:44PM »

IMO, mclaugh did go a bit over board.  However, many people do read this forum and some are young students who don't have much experience.  It's good to make sure accurate information is out there.  That said, I wouldn't bother measuring your mouthpieces or mine for that matter.  It wouldn't be the first time for Bach to have inconsistencies in their machining.  Regardless of how accurate their machining and labeling may be, there is (supposed to be) more to the differences in mouthpieces than large/small shank.  That's all I was trying to say and didn't intend to come off as rude to anyone.

- Dan
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« Reply #43 on: Sep 17, 2009, 06:40PM »

A digital caliper that can measure in .001 mm increments with ±.0005 mm accuracy can be bought for less than $40. which is a helluva lot more accurate than eyeballing how far a quarter fits in the mpc cup.

Nobody cares HOW long or how often you've been playing your mpcs, how you use them, or whether or not YOU notice a difference. Bottom line: if your "facts" are wrong, they're wrong, and need to be corrected.

And, while we're at it, it's bErp, Buzz Extension and Resistance Piece, not bUrp.

We all get hung up in equipment some times. All trombone players in the world can agree with that statement. Both young, old, pro and amateur.
Confusion? Yes I think most trombone players can agree they have been experienced that once or twice.

Its so easy to tell people what they should do. The most easy thing to say is not be confused. Will it help? No.
Stop thinking about equipment and have fun and play? No it will not help.   Practice? No......

What then?   I have just one answear: To be confused is some times  OK and its good. Try to get your own answear. Have a teacher help you. Ask questions here in the trombone forum, listen music and be open minded, don't hurry take your time, try everything. But most of all try enjoying your own sound, try enjoy the music you make, try to figure out all what is good with your playing. And try to forget the equipment.


There was a professor in trumpet playing in Norway. (This is a story and I don't know if it is true but I think it is.)  His students found a really bad trumpet in a music shop. They ask their professor to try it and told him this was a really good trumpet. The professor did play Haydn very well on it and told the students this is a really good trumpet. And he left the store. That's a lesson but maybe not a true story? Maybe it is.

People in poor countries make music out of everything. We use calibers to make sure we can make music out from our expensive equipment ?

Anyway McLaugh, try what Sam say:  Everything, but throw your caliper a long way.



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« Reply #44 on: Sep 17, 2009, 07:10PM »

Thanks, the only thing I can offer is my personal experience. If somebody uses a digital caliper incorrectly, and posts their result, should we take it that the user, the mouthpiece or the equipment is faulty? How would we ever know?

If I can't see the difference in my mouthpieces, I'm free to say that. There may be a huge difference to you when you play it. Also, you can measure it and show me I should have felt a difference. Still, maybe I can't. Do what works for you. You paid the same for my advice as everyone else's. Your soft machine is different from mine.

I've also have two mouthpieces from the same manufacturer. Both are labelled 12C, but one is a 6 1/2 AL. I didn't need calipers to tell they were different, although simple measurements confirmed it. (The factory sent me another 6 1/2 AL.)

Just sayin'

As for spelling, we do our best. Few entries are flawless. Again, figure it out. Most people can. I try my best, and I correct what needs fixing. That's easy to do, and I also am interested in being correct. Also, I learn from other posters. The strength of a good forum is the collective wisdom of everybody.

Finally, if young students are reading this forum, what example of behavior do you want to show?

Takk, Savio.

Martin

PS. My footer is intentionally reversed, if you hadn't noticed. That's called humour.
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« Reply #45 on: Sep 17, 2009, 07:50PM »

Martin,

The Vacum Cleaner is one of your instruments and my 1st choice among all instruments.  Good!


Regards

Leif
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« Reply #46 on: Sep 17, 2009, 08:12PM »

A digital caliper that can measure in .001 mm increments with ±.0005 mm accuracy can be bought for less than $40.

While you're correcting everybody else, you just might want to know the difference between millimeters and inches.  The numbers you quoted are inches, not mm.
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« Reply #47 on: Sep 18, 2009, 01:13AM »

This reminds me of selling stereo gear in the 80s.

You'd get the pseudo-sophisticate who smokes his pipe, and stroke his chin, and ask, 'What's the total harmonic distortion on this amplifier?'

Of course we always knew all the specs cold (because there's lots of down time, and after a while you get tired of everyone's same old stories, so you have to entertain yourself by actually learning about the products you're selling).

Still, I'd always ask, "I don't know, what's it sound like the THD is?"

In other words, if you can't hear it, who cares?
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« Reply #48 on: Sep 27, 2009, 02:34PM »

When I studied with Dr. Fink, he told me I should be using a Remington with my 88H because it was made for the horn.  I bought one.  But, on the other hand, Dr. Fink used a Schilke mouthpiece on his 88H (forget the exact one he used though).  It seemed to be a bathtub compared to the Remington.
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« Reply #49 on: Sep 29, 2009, 03:12AM »

I guess I should add that at one time I played a 5GS on tenor and bass.  I was first learning and it was all I had.  Although I was getting paid to play in the Army Band at the time.  Short story, there is no MOS for BASS trombone(or at least wasn't at that time).  So no one is going to play one regularly since you bump around in parts 1st, 2nd, sometimes 3rd or lower depending on the gig and who's available for it.  700+ gigs a year, even after 30 days of block leave in a given year.  Anyway, no brownie points for playing bass.  Anyway back to the 5GS.  Typical July 4th gig, I got tired of playing the part I was on, so I thought that I'd take up Bass to make it more interesting.  Tried as I might to honk out 1812 on a Bass with a 5GS, it was not easy going.

Basically don't get mouthpiece-itis.  This is my piece and I'm sticking to it no matter what.  Each horn IMO has a piece that it favors.  Which may not have any relation to the piece that you typically use.  Don't be affraid to try something different.  I tend to play mostly marching horns these days and those favor some pretty whacked pieces relative to their non-marching counterparts.  Some of which fall into that specification gap 26mm-27mm.  Too small and everything is stuffy.  Too big and the horns plays too flat to play in an ensemble.  I tend to favor an 11C for pea shooters.  And a 5GS for larger tenors.  But my Yamaha favors a G&W Harry Watters which is somewhere between the two.  Playing that horn on either of the other two makes for some unnecessary challenges.  If only for me.
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« Reply #50 on: Apr 10, 2010, 07:01PM »

I`ve taught high school band for almost 30 years ad have found very few students tat can sound really dood on a mouthpiece the size of a 57 unless they are starting on Bass. Why would you want to have to work that hard. The 6 1/2 AL is a great all around mouthpiece. most of my students play on some variation of the 6 1/2 AL. I say variation because I`m in a city school high school and our budget is crap and all my Trombonists play on a mouthpiece from my personel collection.
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« Reply #51 on: Apr 11, 2010, 10:36PM »

I`ve taught high school band for almost 30 years ad have found very few students tat can sound really dood on a mouthpiece the size of a 57 unless they are starting on Bass. Why would you want to have to work that hard. The 6 1/2 AL is a great all around mouthpiece. most of my students play on some variation of the 6 1/2 AL. I say variation because I`m in a city school high school and our budget is crap and all my Trombonists play on a mouthpiece from my personel collection.

For that first week, playing on what you're used to is great.  But if you try to play at the extremes the horn fights you.  If you go on to play it for more than just one gig, the benefits of having a mouthpiece that matches the horn it's to be used on makes you humble quick.  Recalling my HS summer job to buy a bicycle.  And having to revisit the bike shop several times since I intended to ride the bike home because the chain kept jumping off the sproket.  Seeing a guy turn a screw driver half a turn to fix it.  Taking it back several times to fine tune it.  And by the time it was near perfect I could have already been halfway home with the distance traveled.  Since then I always have some sort of screw driver in my pocket.  You don't need a screw driver to ride a bicycle, but if you're going to ride 40 miles to the beach in one sitting, it sure makes the trip a lot less stressful and conveinent if you actually needed a screw driver.  You don't need a bass trombone mouthpiece to play bass trombone, but it sure makes it a nicer ride on the long haul.
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« Reply #52 on: Apr 12, 2010, 05:50AM »

that  might  been  a  deraileur   dropping the  chain off   //going to  high  gear  ???????????????



For that first week, playing on what you're used to is great.  But if you try to play at the extremes the horn fights you.  If you go on to play it for more than just one gig, the benefits of having a mouthpiece that matches the horn it's to be used on makes you humble quick.  Recalling my HS summer job to buy a bicycle.  And having to revisit the bike shop several times since I intended to ride the bike home because the chain kept jumping off the sproket.  Seeing a guy turn a screw driver half a turn to fix it.  Taking it back several times to fine tune it.  And by the time it was near perfect I could have already been halfway home with the distance traveled.  Since then I always have some sort of screw driver in my pocket.  You don't need a screw driver to ride a bicycle, but if you're going to ride 40 miles to the beach in one sitting, it sure makes the trip a lot less stressful and conveinent if you actually needed a screw driver.  You don't need a bass trombone mouthpiece to play bass trombone, but it sure makes it a nicer ride on the long haul.
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« Reply #53 on: Apr 24, 2010, 04:54PM »

The Remington is not made any more although there seem to be an awful lot of them on Ebay. 



I may have missed it in the pages above, old thread, but I recently bought a new 5G Remington from an online MP "expediter". Not stamped though...Noticeably different from Bach 5G. Remington has very little bottom to cup, smoother taper to bore. Shank fits well in the '63 8H. The rim feels similar to the Bach.
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« Reply #54 on: Apr 24, 2010, 05:05PM »

I may have missed it in the pages above, old thread, but I recently bought a new 5G Remington from an online MP "expediter". Not stamped though...Noticeably different from Bach 5G. Remington has very little bottom to cup, smoother taper to bore. Shank fits well in the '63 8H. The rim feels similar to the Bach.

We talking about a Conn Remington mouthpiece or a Bach 5G-R (I have one).  The 5G-R is supposed to be a conventional 5G with the special "Remington" taper used in older Conn trombones.  It also has a Bach-shaped blank.
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« Reply #55 on: Apr 24, 2010, 05:24PM »

I get it. Can we not just do a cross section on every mouthpiece ever made and get it over with! Scan it..mill it. To order.
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« Reply #56 on: Apr 24, 2010, 05:33PM »

Easy does it.  Why so testy?  You called it a 5G Remington, but I wasn't sure if you meant a "real" Remington or this Bach mouthpiece sold as an alternative that fits the older Conn large bore trombones.

Either way, if it works for you then it's good.
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« Reply #57 on: Apr 24, 2010, 05:53PM »

Truly sorry. Not a testy bone in my body. Way out of my league>
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« Reply #58 on: Jul 25, 2010, 11:28AM »

Just get some chops w/exercises from everyone from old school to new school, you would be surprised on how little a mouth effects the trombone technique.  Lindberg, Alessi, Doug Wright, Jim Miller, Ralph Sauer, Denis Wick,any prominent jazz musician; all those guys could play anything they want and still sound "sick."
What a mouthpiece does is effect is frontal projection.  Extreme example, Schilke 60 to 47.  or 0g to a 12 C.  The audience is going to hear different sounds w/those mouth pieces.  Its all about what kind of sound you want.  Find the sound you band director wants or you desire then you search will be very easy, perspectively speaking.
Look up something called Sympathetic Vibrations, they change w/material, and depth of mouthpiece.  I'm not even gonna start w/the horn!  Best of Luck.
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« Reply #59 on: Sep 27, 2010, 10:56AM »

I've been playing for years in a New Orleans Brass Band. Over the years I have had several mouthpieces Dennis Wick Heritage, Yamaha, Courtois, FAXX, Christian Lindberg and all in different versions. Thanks to this forum, I came in contact with Doug Elliott. He finally advised me a rim 100 ST / B cup / shank B2. This is the best mouthpiece I've ever had! Super advice and excellent service!
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« Reply #60 on: Feb 05, 2011, 10:45PM »

This question may have already been asked somewhere in this vast forum, but I couldn't find it.
Regarding major professional trombonists (Alessi, Dudley Bright, Jay Friedman, etc.)...does anybody know if these trombonists (I'm mainly interested in tenor trombone) use the same mouthpiece for playing all music, or do they change mouthpieces depending upon the piece they are playing?  Just curious.
I play in different groups from jazz to concert band, and find when I'm playing 1st I can hit the high notes better and with more ease when I use my 11C, and when I play lower parts, I use my 6 1/2 AL.  It seems natural to do this, but I want opinions.
Also, can someone give me an opinion of the small bore 5G.  Someone told me it was a good, all-round mouthpiece, but I know nothing about it.
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« Reply #61 on: Feb 05, 2011, 10:50PM »

If you are playing a very virtuosic piece, you have to play very low notes, and very high notes.
You need a mouthpiece where you can do both.
I am only saying this because I used to do this and it does not really help your playing especially with ever increasing difficulty in music.
Also I am a bass player so I know nothing about the 5g =(

Hope this helps
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« Reply #62 on: Feb 06, 2011, 12:45AM »

A 5G is like a 6 1/2 AL with a deeper cup.  More of a C shaped cup versus V shaped like the 6 1/2.  I played on a 5GS, a version with a shallower cup, but still a pretty big piece.

IMO, the mouthpiece to be used depends on the horn and the player.  Some horns just like certain mouthpieces.  Everyones face is different, so I doubt those listed play the SAME piece.  Although if they play a common size like an 11C, they might.  IMO 11C is among the better choices for .500 horns.  A 5GS / 5G is better on 0.525 type horns IMO.  Although I tried the Kanstul 1606 pea shooter in 2007 and it could make an 11C feel like a 1 1/2G.

At the moment I use a G&W Harry Waters.  It's kind of, if a 5G and a 6 1/2 AL and an 11C had kids.  It's kind of V-ish like the 6 1/2AL.  Kind of comfy like the 5G.  And kind of small rim wise like the 11C.  It's what I wish I played on when I was in the Army Band, playing a 5GS.  The V-ish shape makes it mildly harder to play accurately, but also lets you play the low notes with some ease on a relatively small mouthpiece.  Small for me anyway, I have a big mellon.  Physical dimensions anyway.  Even though I have an arsenal of pieces I stick to the G&W Harry Waters for almost all things.  About the only time I change is if I'm having an off day.  Trouble with the high end, 11C.  Swollen lip or other woes, 5GS.  Or if I'm trying out horns, I'll take a variety pack with me.  Some horns just like some pieces which may not be the one that you're using most of the time.

As a general rule of thumb, if you are going to be switching mouthpieces as part of your thing.  And it's not something drastic like Tuba or Trumpet.  You want to keep the inner rim size roughly the same as what you are most comfortable with, or most familiar with.  Of course if that doesn't match the horn in question, by all means choose what does better match the horn.
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« Reply #63 on: Feb 06, 2011, 04:48AM »

Mike, if you dig really deep into the posts on this board, you will find that the answer to your question is "yes". 

Some pros use only one mouthpiece because all their playing fits that one mouthpiece.

Some pros use only one mouthpiece because they can do all their playing with that one mouthpiece even if it means some kind of adaption at the fringes.

Some pros use a variety of mouthpieces tailoring the choice to match the playing involved.

But I'm not aware of any pro who will change mouthpieces on a gig for different pieces.  Once they select a mouthpiece they use it for a gig.

Size?  All over the map.  Again, it is a matter of finding a mouthpiece that allows YOU to play the MUSIC most efficiently.  If you look at the "artist lists" of many makers, you might find the "average" mouthpiece might be a 5G.  But most of us aren't "average".
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« Reply #64 on: Feb 19, 2011, 06:59PM »

While we're on this topic, I need some help. I currently play the 48 that came with my Yamaha, and both my teacher and band director

agree I need a new one. They said I need one to help me get more up into the high ranges. What size do I need? Also, does brand matter?

Bach? Schilke? Rath? Any help is much appreciated  :)
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« Reply #65 on: Feb 19, 2011, 07:08PM »

At this stage I recommend going cheap.  While Doug Elliott makes great mouthpieces, you need to have an idea where you are headed before you go out and spend $200 a copy for a mouthpiece.

The Yamaha 48 is comparable to a 6.5AL (Bach size).  Your teacher and band director have told you they want you to buy a mouthpiece to help you play higher? Amazed

There are smaller mouthpieces and they might help you play higher.  Generally what happens is you lose sound in the lower part of your range.  And even if you were to buy the same mouthpiece Tommy Dorsey used (an Altamont; about a Bach 22D), you still won't be able to play as high as he did; at least not without a lot of practice.

Normally you would buy a mouthpiece for the low register and do rangebuilding exercises to get the upper register.

Having said that, if you want a mouthpiece to facilitate your upper register, a smaller rim and shallower cup will help.   There are lots of them, but Faxx mouthpieces are inexpensive compared to everything else.  You might want to look at a 7C, 11C, or 12C size.  Bach makes a 6 3/4C which is closer in diameter to the Yamaha 48 but is shallower.  Yamaha makes a 45, which is equivalent to a 12C.  A little more expensive would be a Wick 10CS.  Have your teacher help you select a new mouthpiece if at all possible.
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« Reply #66 on: Feb 19, 2011, 07:58PM »

While we're on this topic, I need some help. I currently play the 48 that came with my Yamaha, and both my teacher and band director

agree I need a new one. They said I need one to help me get more up into the high ranges. What size do I need? Also, does brand matter?

Bach? Schilke? Rath? Any help is much appreciated  :)

You need to be having this conversation with your trombone instructor. Coming to the internet to get advice on a mouthpiece would not be my first choice for information, especially when there is a person who knows my playing more intimately who I can talk to face to face. Information given here, while being correct generally, may not be correct for you as an individual.
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« Reply #67 on: Feb 20, 2011, 05:32PM »

I have / had a 48 (or was it 49).  It's a mouthpiece.  If you'd want to downsize it to facilitate a high(er) end, I'd say 7C might be a best first guess.  The yamaha piece is just kind of bleh to me.  It's not hideous, it just doesn't float my boat.  It doesn't make anything particularly easy (or hard).  It really depends on you and your horn.  Or at least your target horn.  If you have horn X, but want to be on bigger horn Y, I'd say 5G-ish as the next one.  If you're talking a straight jazz pea bore, the 48 is way too big IMO.  It was a little big for the YSL-684G I used to play that came with it.  Just checked my drawer.  48 is what I have.  Just a hair bigger (but noticeably bigger) than a 7C (bach).  So I guess it depends on how big of a change YOU want.  Are YOU wanting to go bigger or smaller?  How does that compare to what your teacher wants?  It's your time / money / comfort level when it comes to playing.  By all means consult with experience.  But you're the one who has to live with the consequence.  (less money in your pocket, and potentially a piece you don't like and may never use.)
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« Reply #68 on: Jun 10, 2011, 10:40PM »

Also, can someone give me an opinion of the small bore 5G.  Someone told me it was a good, all-round mouthpiece, but I know nothing about it.

I have a small shank Bach 5G. In general, I've found it to be good, although I've found it's not all that great for higher registers (on both my old 607F and my 2B+; I've only had the 2B+ for one day so the sample size is low).

To add to the overall discussion--mouthpieces are not a "one size fits all" deal. True, there are some standard sizes and conventions, and many trombone teachers will make recommendations, but in the end it's all about what works best for a particular player for a particular application. Much of this comes with experience and playing around with different sizes.

Some guys may find they only need one or two sizes to play everything they need on every horn they own. I only use a 5G on my 88H and feel no reason to get anything different. I do use both 6.5 AL-S and 5G on smaller instruments (my new 2B+ and my retired 607F, which I haven't really used at all since high school), but that's about the only time you'll see me switch between sizes. I've tried other mouthpieces but find it's best to stick with what works best and develop through exercise and hard work on them. (I will say, however, that I prefer a Megatone 6.5 AL to a standard but have both on hand).
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« Reply #69 on: Jun 23, 2011, 09:36AM »

If you are playing a very virtuosic piece, you have to play very low notes, and very high notes.
Yup.  For those recital-type pieces that cover big ranges, I find it much easier to go a little bigger on the mouthpiece to cover the low register, then condition the chops to play higher on that mouthpiece, than it is to try to go lower on a small mouthpiece.  I played all of my college recital stuff on mid-size mouthpieces though.

I've seen players who could get a lot of sound in the lower tones with relatively small mouthpieces.

John Gohl, a college section mate and current Air Force trombonist, played bass trombone in the jazz ensemble with a Bach 6-1/2 AL.  He could get a very impressive low C in triggered low 7th position on his Yamaha .547, and access it in pretty fast passages.  I tried to match what he was doing and never could though my equipment was similar.
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« Reply #70 on: Dec 01, 2011, 04:12PM »

No you can't interchange them--they will fit sort of, but not totally. 
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« Reply #71 on: Mar 27, 2012, 11:36PM »

Some of the best advice I was given came from one of the forum moderators.  His name is ....oops, we are not supposed to name names according to the rules page.  Anyways he suggested I stick with my 6.5AL Conn 8H combo and practice getting the best low notes I possibly could, but to really go for it on the low range.  In other words not to rely on the mouthpiece for low notes but to work on proper technique.  Once that is accomplished (a work in progress) THEN I might want to think about switch mouthpieces.
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« Reply #72 on: Mar 29, 2012, 02:02PM »

I'm getting back into the trombone after playing very little over the past four years. My bass trombone playing is just terrible right now, understandably. I've thought about going back to the 1 1/2 G until my chops get stronger, but my double trigger range is just non-existent on that size mouthpiece. So I'm not sure what to do.
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« Reply #73 on: Mar 29, 2012, 02:25PM »

I'm getting back into the trombone after playing very little over the past four years. My bass trombone playing is just terrible right now, understandably. I've thought about going back to the 1 1/2 G until my chops get stronger, but my double trigger range is just non-existent on that size mouthpiece. So I'm not sure what to do.

How is your range above the bass staff on your normal large mouthpiece?

Some people can play 1 1/2 G sized mouthpieces (like me) and others can't.  When I haven't played Bass for a while I go back to my Marcinkiewicz GR or 3 and play that for a while.  When I'm playing a lot and my bass bone chops are back I go back to my Doug Elliott setup (shown in my profile: LB112/L/L8).

If you really can't play something as small as a 1 1/2 G, just use your larger mouthpiece and work the long tones.
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« Reply #74 on: Mar 29, 2012, 03:07PM »

How is your range above the bass staff on your normal large mouthpiece?

Some people can play 1 1/2 G sized mouthpieces (like me) and others can't.  When I haven't played Bass for a while I go back to my Marcinkiewicz GR or 3 and play that for a while.  When I'm playing a lot and my bass bone chops are back I go back to my Doug Elliott setup (shown in my profile: LB112/L/L8).

If you really can't play something as small as a 1 1/2 G, just use your larger mouthpiece and work the long tones.

I can play a 1 1/4G sized mouthpiece and still sound rich and full.  When I get to the 1G-sized range, then my sound gets really tubby.  I have a Griego 1.25 and a Laskey 85MD, they're both really nice.  The Doug Elliott setup that i have, an LB112/K/K8 is just a little bit too big and I start to sound tubby on that.  I should just pick between the Griego and the Laskey and stick with one of those.  I like them both equally, although they both have different qualities.  The Griego is easier for me to center the pitch and the Laskey sounds more colorful to me, but harder to slot.  So I don't know.
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« Reply #75 on: Apr 08, 2012, 03:40AM »

I can play a 1 1/4G sized mouthpiece and still sound rich and full.  When I get to the 1G-sized range, then my sound gets really tubby.  I have a Griego 1.25 and a Laskey 85MD, they're both really nice.  The Doug Elliott setup that i have, an LB112/K/K8 is just a little bit too big and I start to sound tubby on that.  I should just pick between the Griego and the Laskey and stick with one of those.  I like them both equally, although they both have different qualities.  The Griego is easier for me to center the pitch and the Laskey sounds more colorful to me, but harder to slot.  So I don't know.

Just an update - a friend helped me compare the Griego 1.25 Deco and Laskey 85MD, and the Laskey was the winner for me.  The Laskey had a more even sound throughout the range of the instrument, and is also more versatile, being lighter than the heavier Griego Deco piece.  So I'm going to stick with the Laskey for quite a while.
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« Reply #76 on: Apr 08, 2012, 05:56PM »

The only difference between my 6 1/2 A and 6 1/2 AL is the former has a large shank, and the latter has a small shank. If things have change in 35 years, I can accept that. The rim, backbore etc seem to be the same to me. My mouthpieces are as I describe them.
I don't mean to be disagreeable but I've been using a 6.5 AL since the mid 1970s, and I've got my original 6.5 ALs from the 1970s in both Shank sizes, so I don't believe the diferences in 6 1/2 A and AL were the Shank sizes.
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« Reply #77 on: Apr 08, 2012, 06:04PM »

I don't mean to be disagreeable but I've been using a 6.5 AL since the mid 1970s, and I've got my original 6.5 ALs from the 1970s in both Shank sizes, so I don't believe the diferences in 6 1/2 A and AL were the Shank sizes.

The difference is weird and confusing. The 6.5 A large shank is most similar to the 6.5AL small shank, but they also now make a 6.5AL large shank and, presumable, a 6.5A small shank. Small, but noticeable, differences... apparently.
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« Reply #78 on: Apr 08, 2012, 07:28PM »

The difference is weird and confusing. The 6.5 A large shank is most similar to the 6.5AL small shank, but they also now make a 6.5AL large shank and, presumable, a 6.5A small shank. Small, but noticeable, differences... apparently.

The 6 1/2 AL of small or large shank is identical (except for the shank of course). The 6 1/2 A large shank has the throat and backbore of a standard Bach bass mouthpiece (like a 5G) while the 6 1/2 A small shank has the throat and backbore of a standard Bach tenor mouthpiece (like a 7C).
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« Reply #79 on: Apr 17, 2012, 04:02PM »

Ok, so I figured I'd just stick this in here. I've run a few searches and wasn't able to find info on the throat sizes of Schilke mouthpieces. Specifically the 51 and 52 series mouthpieces. I can find plenty of info on the rim and cup characteristics, but no real specfications on throat sizes. Does anyone have this information? I'm looking for alternatives to my usual Bach and Faxx 5G mouthpieces that I play on my Large Bore instruments. I've got a Yamaha 51C4 but I believe they are a bit smaller than the schilke's of the same name.

Also, what is the deal with the symphony series mouthpieces? They look like they are just more expensive variants of the 51 and 52 series. I can't find much info on what exactly makes them so different though.
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« Reply #80 on: Apr 17, 2012, 10:52PM »

Ok, so I figured I'd just stick this in here. I've run a few searches and wasn't able to find info on the throat sizes of Schilke mouthpieces. Specifically the 51 and 52 series mouthpieces. I can find plenty of info on the rim and cup characteristics, but no real specfications on throat sizes. Does anyone have this information? I'm looking for alternatives to my usual Bach and Faxx 5G mouthpieces that I play on my Large Bore instruments. I've got a Yamaha 51C4 but I believe they are a bit smaller than the schilke's of the same name.

Also, what is the deal with the symphony series mouthpieces? They look like they are just more expensive variants of the 51 and 52 series. I can't find much info on what exactly makes them so different though.

The rims and outside shape were changed- maybe a couple other little changes. They were designed by Karl Hammond, so I would just go there instead.
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« Reply #81 on: Jun 04, 2012, 07:41AM »

Here's one thing that has always confused me. On my King 3B, with a 6 1/2AL mouthpiece, I can play down to pedal F without having to shift the mouthpiece up.

On a .547 bore horn with a 5G mouthpiece, I can barely manage Ab, and sometimes a G without having to shift. With a 3G I can get the G easily but still not down to the pedal F.

On my Bass trombone, even with a 1 1/2G mouthpiece I can only get down to Pedal F without having to shift.

I've been trying to figure out why this is. does it have to do with throat size? does more back pressure allow easier pedal notes? It just seems kind of counter-intuitive that I'd have more issues playing pedal notes on larger bore horns.
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« Reply #82 on: Jun 04, 2012, 07:53AM »

I've found that smaller bore horns (with their higher resistance) seem to help playing pedals.  On my alto I can play double pedals while I can't on my regular trombone.

Problem is, while the small bore instruments make the low notes easier to play you can't play them as loud as you can on a larger bore instrument.  So that low D I played on the King 3B with F trying to cover a bass trombone part didn't cut through.  On the other hand, the low D on my King 7B bass trombone fits just fine.
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« Reply #83 on: Jun 04, 2012, 10:01AM »

Yeah. It's just kinda frustrating at times that I have to work so hard getting those pedal notes on the large bore tenor.

On the other hand, except in a few solo pieces, they don't happen very often.

I mean I could always play on the 3G with the Large bore but I tried that for a while, and it's just too big for me, volume wise, and width wise. I have never tried a 4G-sized piece though. Maybe it's time to try.
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« Reply #84 on: Jun 05, 2012, 01:15AM »

Any horn with more resistance makes pedals easier for me to play.  I can play pedals on a euphonium much easier than on a trombone.

My main axe (Shires large bore/Thayer) is low resistance, and pedals are a lot harder for me. 
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« Reply #85 on: Jun 05, 2012, 09:54AM »

Both of my Kanstul's came with 6 1/2AL mouthpieces that I keep in the case for emergencies. I have better pedal range on those than with my 5G's. Just seems kind of counter intuitive.  Though, it reminds me of how everyone seems to think that H-D motorcycles run best with straight pipes.  If they have carburetors, most in fact will run horribly on straight pipes. The jets inside are set based on having a certain amount of back-pressure. If that is changed, you've gotta change the setup or it'll run badly.

I mean it's great that some people can play on super open bass trombones with .578 slides and no leadpipe, but for most people, having some constrictions helps.
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David Sullivan
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« Reply #86 on: Jun 07, 2012, 04:28AM »

Try the Phile Teele studies.

If you stick with them you'll find you can provide more of your own resistance.
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« Reply #87 on: Jun 07, 2012, 09:44AM »

Try the Phile Teele studies.

If you stick with them you'll find you can provide more of your own resistance.
  any idea where to get that book? also gotta pick up an alto trombone method as well, and some other stuff, maybe a faxx 4g, just to see how it works with me.
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David Sullivan
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« Reply #88 on: Jun 07, 2012, 05:45PM »

http://www.slidebone.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=305

http://www.hickeys.com/products/040/sku40928.htm

http://www.hornguys.com/books.php

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« Reply #89 on: Jun 07, 2012, 06:49PM »

Hmm. Looks like Hickey's will be getting an order from me soon. been quite some time since I've ordered from them.
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« Reply #90 on: Jul 13, 2012, 02:59PM »

Mouthpiece confusion? I know a lot about that subject, STILL, the problem is when you are confused you don't really  know anything.  :/  Yeah, RIGHT.  So its difficult to say so much about it. And I admit I still don't know what exactly make that feeling.

For me it was after a down period, and then suddenly getting back to playing with the same interest as a kid discovering a family park for first time. You know with lot of fun "kid cars", carousels and activities. Much thanks to this forum I did discover the trombone again. That's the truth.

How to avoid confusion? Sometimes its maybe good to be some confused? It makes you stop, it makes you struggle,  it makes you think. I believe some struggling can be good but not so much that you give up. It can be creative and learning.  Who can tell they go through everything without some struggling. Most of us do it a little everyday. Don't we. Not a bad thing always, that's life.

Still I remember Chris here in the forum told he was about to go to Norway and hit me in the head with my mouthpiece.   :D  ;-) He should have done it of course.  :) Because I was so confused and didn't listen more experienced players.  :/ OK we are some stupid some times. What I should have done was to go to Chris and have a lesson of course. In fact a plane ticket and a lesson with him would be cheaper. Since I'm not a beginner, I know a "face to face lesson" is much more worth than internet communication. It will always be the best no matter how developed internet will be with both sound and video.

So what I should have done is clear, but its easy to tell afterwards.

Go to a good teacher!!

But I also got something out of my struggling: A beautiful Bach MT Vernon 1 1/2g which I have played over a year. They did some in those MT Vernon days that might never come back.

OK Never take all confusion and struggling as a bad thing! After confusion you get something back...hopefully! Never give up.

I have some tunes:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1889167/13%20juli12%20high%2060h%20mtvernon.mp3
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1889167/13%20juli12%20child%2060h%20mtvernon.mp3

Child is born is funny because there is a baby there hanging in my leg. I think its my baby ...  :D Anyway thats what my wife told  ;-)

Leif
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Bass Trombone - Conn, Holton
daveyboy37

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« Reply #91 on: Jul 17, 2012, 07:11AM »

Working with a good teacher is a very good way to help pick out a mouthpiece that sounds good. Also having a good sound recording device can help as well.

However, what's more important is that the mouthpiece "works" for you, and makes it easier for you to play the instrument throughout the full range. The problem is FINDING that mouthpiece. There are plenty of mouthpieces with similar specs that are quite different. Rim Size, cup size, throat size, and backbore style are the most easily measured variables. Others like cup profile, throat profile, rim shape, weight distribution, etc are much harder to quantify, and until you play them, you really don't know how they will work out.
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David Sullivan
Bass Trombone - Livingston Symphony Orchestra
Horns: Bach 39, King 3B, Yamaha YSL-640, Bach 42T, Kanstul 1570CR, Kanstul 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612RII
MPCS: Faxx 7C, Hammond 11ML, Laskey 59MD, Laskey 85MD.
The Sackbutist

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« Reply #92 on: Dec 17, 2013, 04:27PM »

Alto Clef From my experience with mouthpieces many many many pros use a 6 1/2 AL including myself. The 6 1/2 AL is like a hybrid, lets you play high but sound great in the low register still. I would stick with it but if there is a feeling you're looking for consult these  http://www.trombonelessons.com/mpanatomy/mpanatomy.html
http://www.bestbrass.jp/en/mouthpiece/pdf/for_you.pdf
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Exzaclee

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« Reply #93 on: Dec 18, 2013, 08:50PM »

Or...

we have our own mouthpiece guru on here - Doug Elliot.  A consult with him could work wonders.
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Music is my mistress, and she plays second fiddle to no one!
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AZTBNDAD
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« Reply #94 on: Jul 02, 2014, 10:53AM »

When I was playing tenor, I was really struggling with the 6 1/2AL, a pro play I met told me to try the Bach 11C....what a difference.

The best advice I can give you is go to the store with your horn and play different mouthpieces.

Don't decide based on Brand.  Decide based on performance.
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jsmn4vu

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« Reply #95 on: Jul 02, 2014, 06:50PM »

I've found that smaller bore horns (with their higher resistance) seem to help playing pedals.  On my alto I can play double pedals while I can't on my regular trombone.

Yes, and it's all about the air, of course. The little horns and mouthpieces make it easier to "fill up" the horn and get the pedals to speak. To do that on a big horn requires a good bit more air.

"Fill up" is in quotes because I'm misusing it here, but it should nonetheless communicate the concept to most.
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vegasbound
There are 2 types of trombone player....Urbie & everyone else!

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« Reply #96 on: Jul 03, 2014, 12:34AM »

Your teacher gave you a mouthpiece to use, did you ask why ?  that would be a good starting point, as your teacher will know/should know your playing...if they cannot give  a satisfactory answer....change your teacher!

make contact with DE, he has a wealth of knowledge and experience in dealing with this subject!

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'There will never come a day when I don't need to practice'- JJ Johnson
sabutin

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« Reply #97 on: Jul 03, 2014, 05:27AM »

Just a short note on pedals/low range in general and smaller/larger horns and m'pces. The word counterintuitive has been used to describe the quite common experience of "better low range/less shifting on smaller equipment" for many players. It all depends on your understanding. Intution often doesn't work if there is not some sort of prior tuition going on.

Two ideas:

1-The ideal rim size for any player has to do with his or her facial physiognomy...teeth size and shape, lip size, overbite/underbite etc. When the aperture needs more room to expand for low notes than is allowed by the rim diameter, then a "shift" is needed. Ditto the other way. Too large a rim diameter will not help to support someone's naturally smaller aperture that works quite well in the low range.

2-Most low range problems are caused by a lack of resistance from behind the m'pce...in the embouchure and in the use of the tongue as a sort of air nozzle. Smaller equipment provides the missing resistance. Once one develops real embouchure strength and balance in the low registers then the small equipment crutch is no longer needed.

S.
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Visit <http://samburtis.com/>. Lots of information on that site in the form of articles plus a link to my method book "Time, Balance & Connections-A Universal Theory Of Brass Relativity" which includes several chapters of the book.
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