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Author Topic: Mouthpiece Confusion  (Read 64028 times)
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EarlNeedham
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« Reply #20 on: Nov 30, 2007, 07:04AM »

Without knowledge of you, your playing, or where you're coming from, no one can give you valid advice.

But I'm going to suggest staying with what you have and using both, the 6-1/2 for tenor and the 57 for bass.  That will give you some perspective to base future opinions on.

I was going to post something about the 6 1/2AL when I saw this post, so I was then going to say this is pretty wise.  Then I saw it was from Doug and now I'm going to say "he knows what he's talking about"!   :D

Seriously, the 6 1/2AL is a "standard mouthpiece" for a reason.  Perhaps 40 years ago, we all used the 6 1/2 in the 88H, and it was a great sound, blending in with the music of the time, and sounding like a TROMBONE.  Today, everybody seems to want to sound bigger, louder, darker, and sometimes you get a trombone choir that sounds like a swimming pool full of molasses!

In the end, you have to find something that YOU like, that gives a sound that the others in your musical group like.  It can be a difficult balance to find.

The 57?  If you're just going to experiment with Bass Trombone, then it's probably OK.  If you get to the point where you're playing exclusively on Bass, then you will probably want to experiment more with mouthpieces.  Just remember, though, the same thing applies -- YOU have to like it, and others in your group (especially the director) have to like the sound you get on it.
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EarlNeedham
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« Reply #21 on: Nov 30, 2007, 07:05AM »

===========
dont  be  a  DABBLER  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!  BE  A DOUBLER
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By the way, DJ, do you mind if I add this great line to my sig file?
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« Reply #22 on: Dec 26, 2007, 09:09AM »

Strictly speaking from experience (which I can't say I have much of), a Schilke 51D suited me wonderfully.

Before my high school got a bass trombone, I played the bass parts on my Bach 42 with a Schilke 51D.  For the Ellington stuff we played (written for 3 trombones, neglecting the beautiful bass trombone), I had all the upper register I needed as well.  As far as an all purpose mouthpiece, a 51D, or even the bach 5G (which you could trade to get, yes?) should treat you well.

The deep cup on the Schilke might be a little much, but it's worth the work and can definitely sing in all registers.
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Rayek

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« Reply #23 on: Dec 27, 2007, 12:24PM »

The first 42 I got my hands on came with a 6-1/2A.  I believe it has the same rim and cup as the AL, but the throat and backbore are bigger.  I found it to be a nice starting point with the 42.  You might be able to find one used.  If mine hadn't disappeared into a black hole somewhere, I'd send it to you try.  Doug's advice is probably the best, however.
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« Reply #24 on: Mar 08, 2008, 07:25AM »

Just wondering if anyone can tell me if a Doug Elliott LT and XT series has interchangeable parts? I assume no, but just wanted to double check. ie. Can one rim fit both? What's the major diff in the size 8 and 9 shank?
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« Reply #25 on: Mar 08, 2008, 09:45AM »

The LT and XT mouthpieces use different cup and rim blanks, and I would not expect them to be interchangeable.  Maybe Doug can clear things up better.

The 8 and 9 backbores are different.  Actually, there are 3 large shank backbores; 7, 8, and 9.  The tightest is the 7, and the most open is the 9.  Most people seem to like the 8, which is a nice compromise.  I tried all 3 on my bass setup and for a while I played the 9 but as my percentage of bass trombone playing got smaller I moved to the 8.  Probably should have been there to start.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #26 on: Mar 08, 2008, 07:24PM »

Earl Needham wrote:

"Today, everybody seems to want to sound bigger, louder, darker, and sometimes you get a trombone choir that sounds like a swimming pool full of molasses!"

Earl, you said it...... my thoughts exactly. I believe the 'huge' tenor mouthpiece is also part of the problem....... trying to use a particular size of piece just because some advertisement says so and so uses this mega-mouthpiece with all of its 'mega-variations'.

This just hurts students in the long run...... they never get to develop a sound with any 'life' to it...... because they don't use something that might actually fit their own facial and body structure.

If someone wants to sound like a cross between a bass trombone and a euphonium on a tenor trombone, then buy a bass trombone or a euphonium.

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bobertthebone
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« Reply #27 on: Jun 15, 2008, 03:59PM »

Please don't get me wrong, Paisios, I played a Remington for quite a while until I decided I needed something a little bigger and moved to the 4 rim (first a 4C, then a 4G when I got a large bore trombone, and now a Wick 4BS).  I keep my Remington in the case with the "emergency trombone" in my trunk and use it from time to time.

Conn probably stopped offering the Remington when Chief died.  At one time there was a Marcellus (I believe it was from Benge, but they were all under one roof then).  One Conn I got came with something called "Artist", which sure felt like a Remington.

There is probably a set of Elliott parts you can buy that would come close to a Remington, but Doug would probably have to tell us which.

Unfortunately "endorsed" mouthpieces don't go on forever, and often fall victim to changing tastes.  You don't see a Bell tuba mouthpiece anymore, nor a Pryor trombone (it's quite small by today's standards).  While we revere Remington for his teaching legacy and the huge number of his students now teaching, today's preeminent educators and players are flogging their own mouthpieces and methods.  Look at the Christian Lindberg and Joe Alessi series of mouthpieces.


I'm pretty sure the Marcellus is still around.  One thing I've notices about it is that it has a very shallow cup and a nice open backbore.  This is from comparing it to a Bach 6.5AL.  I play both and love the Marcellus way more.
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« Reply #28 on: Jun 17, 2008, 01:53PM »

I play on a Greg Black 5G, and I really like it.
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Peytonio
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« Reply #29 on: Jun 17, 2008, 02:24PM »

I played a 6.5 in varying configurations for 14 years: bach, bach with gold, the 6.5 A, the Megatone, and you can do just about anything on that mouthpiece. 

I've noticed my needs have changed lately so i am trying a bunch of different stuff.  A monette (which i like, but only a couple of things are easier on that pice, maybe not enough to justify the bread unless...) and a bunch of 5-ish pieces to try ...

those ferguson pieces are GREAT!.

but i wouldn't even know what the heck i was looking for has i not played on the same 'piece for 14 years.  now i have a pretty good idea of what I can and can't do easily on that piece.

get to know what you can do on the 6.5 (there's a reason everyone uses one - or did, anyway...) and save the mouthpiece shuffle for when your chops are pretty solid.  When consistency becomes the rule instead of the exception....

just my 2 farthings...

Z
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« Reply #30 on: Jul 10, 2008, 03:18PM »

I change ricently my mouphpiece from 6,1/2 to 5G. It is more universal.
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Alexander Tsapesh
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« Reply #31 on: Jul 11, 2008, 06:13AM »

I change ricently my mouphpiece from 6,1/2 to 5G. It is more universal.

I think that's a rather odd statement.

While the 5G is often provided with new instruments (it used to be a 6 1/2 AL), it is not a "universal" mouthpiece.  If you are getting good results with a 6 1/2 AL, 12C, 22D, or 1G then that is good.  Changing a mouthpiece because you have a problem is reasonable.  Changing it because everybody else uses one (or because [insert trombone God here] uses one) is not a valid reason.  We are all different.  I wouldn't tell you to use the same mouthpiece I do unless you happened to be a clone of me.

Again, if you find a 5G is a better sounding mouthpiece (and they are popular for a reason) that's great.

Did you find the 5G to play better for you?
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #32 on: Feb 28, 2009, 07:47PM »

First post for me.  I've played the 6.5AL for over 30 years on all my horns and in my opinion it comes down to what fits your face. Quite a few years ago I did some experimenting with a few smaller cups/rims and nothing felt as comfy as the 6.5.  I have no idea how people can play a 12C... just does not feel right for me.

I recently "dabbled" with a few mouth pieces:  Curry 11s, Yamaha 48, and DW7cs.  The curry is a powerfull shallow mouth piece larger than the 12C. The Yamaha's very nice slightly smaller than the 6.5AL but deep. And the Denis Wick 7cs.  I ended up choosing the Denis Wick because it has the same rim or very close to the 6.5AL.  It is shallower and man do I like it. Very clear up to xF and as mentioned in a previous post, the sound is a bit brighter but I guess I don't care anymore!  My point is: go with what feels good and practice your rearend off.

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« Reply #33 on: Feb 28, 2009, 11:27PM »

I speak here as a person with little to no large tenor experience (it's my next instrument purchase- I swear!).
I spent the last week playing my friend's Shires tenor (1YM bell, TB47 slide, red tuning slide, Thayer) with my collection of 5-rimmed tenor pieces (Yamaha Canadian Brass, FAXX 5G, Denis Wick 5BL, Griego 4.5) and her two pieces (Greg Black 5G, Giddings & Webster Euros).
I realized a couple things from this endeavor. 1- I really like Shires. 2. I still don't like Thayers.
After playing Rochuts for hours (some by myself, some with my friend), warming up with different pieces, playing in large rooms, etc. I decided that the best pieces were- G@W Euros, followed by the FAXX and Greg Black 5Gs in a tie. Of course, with my luck, I have a Josef Klier 5BL coming, but didn't come in time to play with a good horn.
Just some of my (not very useful) thoughts on 5-rimmed tenor pieces.
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« Reply #34 on: Jun 10, 2009, 11:56AM »

I think Doug Elliott said it best.
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« Reply #35 on: Sep 15, 2009, 09:28AM »

My 42B came with a 6 1/2A in 1974. The A is the large shank version of the AL.  The "standard" that everyone at that time was either a Bach 5G or a Schilke 51. Some people went to the 51D. I still know a lot of people playing these. The 51 gives me a decent low register such that I can play bass if I have to, although a real bass trombone is always more fun to play and is a better sound to me.

I use a 6 1/2 AL as my small bore tenor mouthpiece. Until this thread, I didn't know anybody who played a 6 1/2 A(L) in a 42B. You'll figure it out.

This might lead to an off-topic discussion, but the 42B / 51 (or equivalent) is versatile enough that some players claim they can do everything on one horn. I disagree.

Cheers,
Martin

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Martin Hubel
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« Reply #36 on: Sep 16, 2009, 03:43PM »

My 42B came with a 6 1/2A in 1974. The A is the large shank version of the AL. 
Cheers,
Martin



That isn't exactly true as both the 6.5A and 6.5AL are available in large shank.  I know this because I have one of each.  The designations seem to have more to do with the backbore and throat sizes.
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« Reply #37 on: Sep 16, 2009, 04:49PM »

That isn't exactly true as both the 6.5A and 6.5AL are available in large shank.  I know this because I have one of each.  The designations seem to have more to do with the backbore and throat sizes.

The only difference between my 6 1/2 A and 6 1/2 AL is the former has a large shank, and the latter has a small shank. If things have change in 35 years, I can accept that. The rim, backbore etc seem to be the same to me. My mouthpieces are as I describe them.
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Martin Hubel
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« Reply #38 on: Sep 16, 2009, 07:23PM »

The only difference between my 6 1/2 A and 6 1/2 AL is the former has a large shank, and the latter has a small shank. If things have change in 35 years, I can accept that. The rim, backbore etc seem to be the same to me. My mouthpieces are as I describe them.

Sorry, but Dan is right. The 6 1/2A and 6 1/2AL is available in BOTH large and small shank, and have been since at least the early 1970s, if not earlier.

The difference has ALWAYS been in the throat and the backbore. According to the Bach catalog, the 6 1/2AL has "The same rim and cup as No. 61⁄2A, but with a larger 'G' deep well rounded. throat and #420 backbore."
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« Reply #39 on: Sep 16, 2009, 08:24PM »

Sorry, but Dan is right. The 6 1/2A and 6 1/2AL is available in BOTH large and small shank, and have been since at least the early 1970s, if not earlier.

The difference has ALWAYS been in the throat and the backbore. According to the Bach catalog, the 6 1/2AL has "The same rim and cup as No. 61⁄2A, but with a larger 'G' deep well rounded. throat and #420 backbore."

I play my 6 1/2 AL daily, and when I travel I take my 6 1/2 A in my BerP (large shank). I've been playing the AL for 34 years, I've had the A for 35 years, and using the BerP off and on for about 20 years. I have never noticed a difference, and I was told there is no other difference than the shank. I wouldn't play the A in a horn, because I have a Schilke 51 for my 42B I've always found more appropriate, going back to the days when supplied mouthpieces were never that good to use.

Of course, that is only my personal experience. Maybe you own both like me, and have measured them more accurately than I can with the old quarter I drop into them, and have noticed something I haven't. Of course, I can't play them side by side, because they don't fit the same horn. The experience on my face is the same, based on the same rim size. For buzzing, the A is fine.

The catalog must be right. I stand corrected, and I'll add that to my book of semi-useless information.

Thanks,
Martin
« Last Edit: Sep 17, 2009, 12:43PM by Torobone » Logged

Martin Hubel
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