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Author Topic: Mouthpiece Confusion  (Read 62286 times)
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Burgerbob

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« Reply #80 on: Apr 17, 2012, 10:52PM »

Ok, so I figured I'd just stick this in here. I've run a few searches and wasn't able to find info on the throat sizes of Schilke mouthpieces. Specifically the 51 and 52 series mouthpieces. I can find plenty of info on the rim and cup characteristics, but no real specfications on throat sizes. Does anyone have this information? I'm looking for alternatives to my usual Bach and Faxx 5G mouthpieces that I play on my Large Bore instruments. I've got a Yamaha 51C4 but I believe they are a bit smaller than the schilke's of the same name.

Also, what is the deal with the symphony series mouthpieces? They look like they are just more expensive variants of the 51 and 52 series. I can't find much info on what exactly makes them so different though.

The rims and outside shape were changed- maybe a couple other little changes. They were designed by Karl Hammond, so I would just go there instead.
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daveyboy37

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« Reply #81 on: Jun 04, 2012, 07:41AM »

Here's one thing that has always confused me. On my King 3B, with a 6 1/2AL mouthpiece, I can play down to pedal F without having to shift the mouthpiece up.

On a .547 bore horn with a 5G mouthpiece, I can barely manage Ab, and sometimes a G without having to shift. With a 3G I can get the G easily but still not down to the pedal F.

On my Bass trombone, even with a 1 1/2G mouthpiece I can only get down to Pedal F without having to shift.

I've been trying to figure out why this is. does it have to do with throat size? does more back pressure allow easier pedal notes? It just seems kind of counter-intuitive that I'd have more issues playing pedal notes on larger bore horns.
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David Sullivan
Bass Trombone - Livingston Symphony Orchestra
Horns: Bach 39, King 3B, Yamaha YSL-640, Bach 42T, Kanstul 1570CR, Kanstul 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612RII
MPCS: Faxx 7C, Hammond 11ML, Laskey 59MD, Laskey 85MD.
BGuttman
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« Reply #82 on: Jun 04, 2012, 07:53AM »

I've found that smaller bore horns (with their higher resistance) seem to help playing pedals.  On my alto I can play double pedals while I can't on my regular trombone.

Problem is, while the small bore instruments make the low notes easier to play you can't play them as loud as you can on a larger bore instrument.  So that low D I played on the King 3B with F trying to cover a bass trombone part didn't cut through.  On the other hand, the low D on my King 7B bass trombone fits just fine.
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daveyboy37

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« Reply #83 on: Jun 04, 2012, 10:01AM »

Yeah. It's just kinda frustrating at times that I have to work so hard getting those pedal notes on the large bore tenor.

On the other hand, except in a few solo pieces, they don't happen very often.

I mean I could always play on the 3G with the Large bore but I tried that for a while, and it's just too big for me, volume wise, and width wise. I have never tried a 4G-sized piece though. Maybe it's time to try.
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David Sullivan
Bass Trombone - Livingston Symphony Orchestra
Horns: Bach 39, King 3B, Yamaha YSL-640, Bach 42T, Kanstul 1570CR, Kanstul 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612RII
MPCS: Faxx 7C, Hammond 11ML, Laskey 59MD, Laskey 85MD.
SilverBone
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« Reply #84 on: Jun 05, 2012, 01:15AM »

Any horn with more resistance makes pedals easier for me to play.  I can play pedals on a euphonium much easier than on a trombone.

My main axe (Shires large bore/Thayer) is low resistance, and pedals are a lot harder for me. 
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daveyboy37

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« Reply #85 on: Jun 05, 2012, 09:54AM »

Both of my Kanstul's came with 6 1/2AL mouthpieces that I keep in the case for emergencies. I have better pedal range on those than with my 5G's. Just seems kind of counter intuitive.  Though, it reminds me of how everyone seems to think that H-D motorcycles run best with straight pipes.  If they have carburetors, most in fact will run horribly on straight pipes. The jets inside are set based on having a certain amount of back-pressure. If that is changed, you've gotta change the setup or it'll run badly.

I mean it's great that some people can play on super open bass trombones with .578 slides and no leadpipe, but for most people, having some constrictions helps.
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David Sullivan
Bass Trombone - Livingston Symphony Orchestra
Horns: Bach 39, King 3B, Yamaha YSL-640, Bach 42T, Kanstul 1570CR, Kanstul 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612RII
MPCS: Faxx 7C, Hammond 11ML, Laskey 59MD, Laskey 85MD.
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« Reply #86 on: Jun 07, 2012, 04:28AM »

Try the Phile Teele studies.

If you stick with them you'll find you can provide more of your own resistance.
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daveyboy37

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« Reply #87 on: Jun 07, 2012, 09:44AM »

Try the Phile Teele studies.

If you stick with them you'll find you can provide more of your own resistance.
  any idea where to get that book? also gotta pick up an alto trombone method as well, and some other stuff, maybe a faxx 4g, just to see how it works with me.
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David Sullivan
Bass Trombone - Livingston Symphony Orchestra
Horns: Bach 39, King 3B, Yamaha YSL-640, Bach 42T, Kanstul 1570CR, Kanstul 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612RII
MPCS: Faxx 7C, Hammond 11ML, Laskey 59MD, Laskey 85MD.
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« Reply #88 on: Jun 07, 2012, 05:45PM »

http://www.slidebone.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=305

http://www.hickeys.com/products/040/sku40928.htm

http://www.hornguys.com/books.php

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daveyboy37

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« Reply #89 on: Jun 07, 2012, 06:49PM »

Hmm. Looks like Hickey's will be getting an order from me soon. been quite some time since I've ordered from them.
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David Sullivan
Bass Trombone - Livingston Symphony Orchestra
Horns: Bach 39, King 3B, Yamaha YSL-640, Bach 42T, Kanstul 1570CR, Kanstul 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612RII
MPCS: Faxx 7C, Hammond 11ML, Laskey 59MD, Laskey 85MD.
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« Reply #90 on: Jul 13, 2012, 02:59PM »

Mouthpiece confusion? I know a lot about that subject, STILL, the problem is when you are confused you don't really  know anything.  :/  Yeah, RIGHT.  So its difficult to say so much about it. And I admit I still don't know what exactly make that feeling.

For me it was after a down period, and then suddenly getting back to playing with the same interest as a kid discovering a family park for first time. You know with lot of fun "kid cars", carousels and activities. Much thanks to this forum I did discover the trombone again. That's the truth.

How to avoid confusion? Sometimes its maybe good to be some confused? It makes you stop, it makes you struggle,  it makes you think. I believe some struggling can be good but not so much that you give up. It can be creative and learning.  Who can tell they go through everything without some struggling. Most of us do it a little everyday. Don't we. Not a bad thing always, that's life.

Still I remember Chris here in the forum told he was about to go to Norway and hit me in the head with my mouthpiece.   :D  ;-) He should have done it of course.  :) Because I was so confused and didn't listen more experienced players.  :/ OK we are some stupid some times. What I should have done was to go to Chris and have a lesson of course. In fact a plane ticket and a lesson with him would be cheaper. Since I'm not a beginner, I know a "face to face lesson" is much more worth than internet communication. It will always be the best no matter how developed internet will be with both sound and video.

So what I should have done is clear, but its easy to tell afterwards.

Go to a good teacher!!

But I also got something out of my struggling: A beautiful Bach MT Vernon 1 1/2g which I have played over a year. They did some in those MT Vernon days that might never come back.

OK Never take all confusion and struggling as a bad thing! After confusion you get something back...hopefully! Never give up.

I have some tunes:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1889167/13%20juli12%20high%2060h%20mtvernon.mp3
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1889167/13%20juli12%20child%2060h%20mtvernon.mp3

Child is born is funny because there is a baby there hanging in my leg. I think its my baby ...  :D Anyway thats what my wife told  ;-)

Leif
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daveyboy37

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« Reply #91 on: Jul 17, 2012, 07:11AM »

Working with a good teacher is a very good way to help pick out a mouthpiece that sounds good. Also having a good sound recording device can help as well.

However, what's more important is that the mouthpiece "works" for you, and makes it easier for you to play the instrument throughout the full range. The problem is FINDING that mouthpiece. There are plenty of mouthpieces with similar specs that are quite different. Rim Size, cup size, throat size, and backbore style are the most easily measured variables. Others like cup profile, throat profile, rim shape, weight distribution, etc are much harder to quantify, and until you play them, you really don't know how they will work out.
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David Sullivan
Bass Trombone - Livingston Symphony Orchestra
Horns: Bach 39, King 3B, Yamaha YSL-640, Bach 42T, Kanstul 1570CR, Kanstul 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612RII
MPCS: Faxx 7C, Hammond 11ML, Laskey 59MD, Laskey 85MD.
The Sackbutist

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« Reply #92 on: Dec 17, 2013, 04:27PM »

Alto Clef From my experience with mouthpieces many many many pros use a 6 1/2 AL including myself. The 6 1/2 AL is like a hybrid, lets you play high but sound great in the low register still. I would stick with it but if there is a feeling you're looking for consult these  http://www.trombonelessons.com/mpanatomy/mpanatomy.html
http://www.bestbrass.jp/en/mouthpiece/pdf/for_you.pdf
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Exzaclee

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« Reply #93 on: Dec 18, 2013, 08:50PM »

Or...

we have our own mouthpiece guru on here - Doug Elliot.  A consult with him could work wonders.
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« Reply #94 on: Jul 02, 2014, 10:53AM »

When I was playing tenor, I was really struggling with the 6 1/2AL, a pro play I met told me to try the Bach 11C....what a difference.

The best advice I can give you is go to the store with your horn and play different mouthpieces.

Don't decide based on Brand.  Decide based on performance.
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« Reply #95 on: Jul 02, 2014, 06:50PM »

I've found that smaller bore horns (with their higher resistance) seem to help playing pedals.  On my alto I can play double pedals while I can't on my regular trombone.

Yes, and it's all about the air, of course. The little horns and mouthpieces make it easier to "fill up" the horn and get the pedals to speak. To do that on a big horn requires a good bit more air.

"Fill up" is in quotes because I'm misusing it here, but it should nonetheless communicate the concept to most.
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vegasbound
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« Reply #96 on: Jul 03, 2014, 12:34AM »

Your teacher gave you a mouthpiece to use, did you ask why ?  that would be a good starting point, as your teacher will know/should know your playing...if they cannot give  a satisfactory answer....change your teacher!

make contact with DE, he has a wealth of knowledge and experience in dealing with this subject!

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« Reply #97 on: Jul 03, 2014, 05:27AM »

Just a short note on pedals/low range in general and smaller/larger horns and m'pces. The word counterintuitive has been used to describe the quite common experience of "better low range/less shifting on smaller equipment" for many players. It all depends on your understanding. Intution often doesn't work if there is not some sort of prior tuition going on.

Two ideas:

1-The ideal rim size for any player has to do with his or her facial physiognomy...teeth size and shape, lip size, overbite/underbite etc. When the aperture needs more room to expand for low notes than is allowed by the rim diameter, then a "shift" is needed. Ditto the other way. Too large a rim diameter will not help to support someone's naturally smaller aperture that works quite well in the low range.

2-Most low range problems are caused by a lack of resistance from behind the m'pce...in the embouchure and in the use of the tongue as a sort of air nozzle. Smaller equipment provides the missing resistance. Once one develops real embouchure strength and balance in the low registers then the small equipment crutch is no longer needed.

S.
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