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The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentMouthpieces(Moderators: BGuttman, Doug Elliott) And who in their right mind chooses ANY mouthpiece? Plus how to choose, as well.
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kbiggs

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« Reply #40 on: Sep 23, 2007, 10:29AM »

I know this thread is about choosing mpc's, but I was surprised by some of the comments about leadpipes. 

John, you said that "In my mind I always pictured the taper of the backbore flowing smoothly through the leadpipe as a single taper...Way Wrong.  A taper, a constriction and another taper... a dual venturi." 

So, from the point where the lips buzz, the first "constriction" is the mpc throat; then the "sound pipe" (not "leadpipe") opens in the mpc backbore; at the end of which it constricts down again in the leadpipe (the "second taper"), and then expands again through the end of the leadpipe, and eventually becomes the bore size of the horn.  This is the dual venturi? 

(BTW, is "venturi" single or plural?  Is one a ventura -- NOT THE CITY!!-- and more than one venturi?. . .  But does that mean that Ventura is just another "windy city" . . . ?)   :-P

I remember now a picture from the old Schilke catalogues that had a cross section of a trumpet mpc inserted into a leadpipe.  This showed the "gap" between the end of the mpc and the beginning of the venturi. 

Questions: 1. As previous posts have mentioned, King trombones seem to have this "trumpet like" set up.  (I think my old King 4B was like this.)  Is this one of the characteristics that gave King trombones (and presumably Benge horns too) their unique sound?  (Leaving aside other things like bell shape, materials, gauge of metal, etc.)?

2. What about the "traditional" German/Viennese style trombones?  If I remember previously discussions, they didn't have leadpipes, just a mouthpiece that fit into the 1st yard or downpipe of the slide.  Same question: Is this one of the things (all others being equal) that give the "traditional" German/Viennese style trombones their unique sound? 

3.  What about the fashion a while ago of using a mpc. "holder" without a leadpipe?  I remember this was popular a while ago for bass trombonists.
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Kenneth Biggs
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« Reply #41 on: Sep 24, 2007, 12:35AM »

Don't know how to answer your trombone questions, but I can handle the "venturi" one.

"Venturi" is singular.  The plural is "venturis".  Though it looks like it could be one of those odd "i" ending plurals, it's actually named after G.B. Venturi, an Italian physicist who died in 1822.

Here's the definition from Merriam-Webster Online:

: a short tube with a tapering constriction in the middle that causes an increase in the velocity of flow of a fluid and a corresponding decrease in fluid pressure and that is used especially in measuring fluid flow or for creating a suction (as for driving aircraft instruments or drawing fuel into the flow stream of a carburetor)
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« Reply #42 on: Nov 15, 2007, 09:13AM »

So, did anybody conclude if there is one IDEAL gap for the mouthpiece and slide reciever? Someone said it is 2mm for trumpet, but what about trombone?

I mean, it's possible that it exists, and it's based on real physics in some way. For example, Sam is fooling around with plumber's tape to get the "sweet spot" on each mouthpiece. But, let's not forget that mouthpiece shanks are different. So, maybe he's just finding the maesurement as it relates to that shank/leadpipe combination.

And...How would one measure these, anyway?

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janettem
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« Reply #43 on: Mar 26, 2008, 02:31PM »

I just acquired a Yamaha 354,with a Blessing 6 1/2 AL mouthpiece. I just got used to playing higher register semi-consistently on my old Mannheim with the standard,larger mouthpiece that came with it. So far,I haven't been able to really hit those high , and yet on the Yamaha.

Should I give myself more time or should I try out a larger mouthpiece or a smaller one in order to hit those notes?

(The Blessing mouthpiece is a small shank.)
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Slidennis

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« Reply #44 on: Mar 27, 2008, 03:54AM »

I just acquired a Yamaha 354,with a Blessing 6 1/2 AL mouthpiece. I just got used to playing higher register semi-consistently on my old Mannheim with the standard,larger mouthpiece that came with it. So far,I haven't been able to really hit those high , and yet on the Yamaha.

Should I give myself more time or should I try out a larger mouthpiece or a smaller one in order to hit those notes?

(The Blessing mouthpiece is a small shank.)
I have no problem getting those notes with a Blessing 6.5 AL on a 354 (I own both), but it took me more than 15 years on trombone to get a solid high C with this combo...

Before, a smaller mouthpiece helped... ;-)
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Denis
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« Reply #45 on: Mar 27, 2008, 05:46AM »

It might be worthwhile to see what happens if you get a mouthpiece with the same rim size that you were using before.  Is there a small shank version of your other piece?
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janettem
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« Reply #46 on: Mar 27, 2008, 10:44AM »

It might be worthwhile to see what happens if you get a mouthpiece with the same rim size that you were using before.  Is there a small shank version of your other piece?

I believe there is. I'll check it out when I hit the local stores here...once I get some $$$ to do it!

I may have to wait till my lip heals a little more to try to hit those notes consistently.

I played for about 15 minutes this morning,and went a little higher,but I may have to practice more to be able to hit those notes without flubbing them!
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Fuzzy
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« Reply #47 on: Aug 23, 2008, 11:17PM »

choosing a mouthpiece is a long, hard, arduos process.

1. Get a wide range of mouthpiecs
2. Find ones that feels nice and comfortable and make a good sound to you.
3. Get some experienced players and musicians in general to hear you play on them.
4. Buy the mouthpiece that recieves the most positive feedback from others..

I did this with 8 mouthpieces, some shiny gold ones etc.... I went blindfolded and had a few people listen. I ended up picking a stock standard 1.5G.

Go figure.

« Last Edit: Aug 24, 2008, 06:57AM by Fuzzy » Logged

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« Reply #48 on: Aug 24, 2008, 05:56AM »

There's nothing wrong with the 1.5 -- except it usually isn't gold-plated, and doesn't have too many artists endorsing it.
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« Reply #49 on: Sep 01, 2008, 08:09AM »

New member (but old player) here. Very interesting thread. I'm not necessarily a curmudgeon, but am on this topic. I've been looking for my ideal mouthpiece for 50 years and may have finally figured some things out.

First, I hate Bach mouthpieces - all of them. They are the standard, but they do not fit my embouchure at all. It's probably good advice for most players to line up as many Bachs as possible and pick the one that plays the best - but for some of us, that will just compound our frustration. I have about a dozen of them and can't play on any of them for more than a minute. I just hate the feel and the tone.

Having laid off for 20 years and recently started the journey back, one thing became crystal clear to me - there is only one type of mouthpiece that I can play on well and that gives me the tone that I want. Basically, they were a style made around the turn of the 19th century. They are funnel-shaped and have absolutely flat rims. Years ago, I started on my grandfather's mouthpiece of that type and foolishly moved on. The only modern mouthpiece that comes close to that style is a Conn 3 and I don't believe they are made any more. I used one of those in my younger days (college) when playing a big bore horn several hours per day. I can't handle that one any more for a variety of reasons and have gone back to my lifelong back-up: my grandfather's funnel-shaped mouthpiece. Thank goodness for ebay because now I have been able acquire several more of that same type in a variety of sizes.

My truth for mouthpieces: try every type you can get you hands on and stay with what you are most comfortable with and which makes covering your desired range the best. Do not convert to some mouthpiece because it is popular with other players or fits some pre-conceived notion that you or your teacher has. Choosing a mouthpiece is personal. What works for one person has nothing to do with any other.

H George
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« Reply #50 on: Dec 14, 2008, 09:59AM »

So, did anybody conclude if there is one IDEAL gap for the mouthpiece and slide reciever? Someone said it is 2mm for trumpet, but what about trombone?

I mean, it's possible that it exists, and it's based on real physics in some way. For example, Sam is fooling around with plumber's tape to get the "sweet spot" on each mouthpiece. But, let's not forget that mouthpiece shanks are different. So, maybe he's just finding the maesurement as it relates to that shank/leadpipe combination.

And...How would one measure these, anyway?



Mouthpiece receivers on a trombone (for the most part) are part of the lead pipe, and wouldn't quite behave the way a receiver would on a trumpet, there will ALWAYS be a small lip , or step on a trombone, UNLESS some manufacturer makes a trombone with a separate receiver,ala' trumpets horns,tuba's,euphs,(well just about anything else....) where the mouthpiece end mates up to the start of the lead pipe. Anyway..... that means when we place a mouthpiece in the horn, rather than a gap, there would be a step, that step would be dictated by how thin the wall of the mouthpiece is at the large end of the inside taper. If you were to add plumbers tape to the shank of the mouthpiece, you would be changing how far into the receiver the mouthpiece would fit, OR compensating for any irregularities in the taper of the shank and the lead pipe. (done this a few times) The depth of the shank in the receiver can change the feel of resistance, and to some degree the "slotting" of the harmonics. Sometimes you can find a spot that's a better fit for your playing by doing this, or adjust the feel of the instrument/mouthpiece combination to suit your tastes.
You could open the taper of the mouthpiece backbore to have a very thin end, but it most likely would almost be too open (almost) and probably would get damaged pretty quickly.....

Anyway thats my experience with this and my .02
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« Reply #51 on: Dec 14, 2008, 10:49AM »

...
You could open the taper of the mouthpiece backbore to have a very thin end, but it most likely would almost be too open (almost) and probably would get damaged pretty quickly.....
...
I've done this a couple of times.  Works great.  But, it does get damaged easily (but, being thin it's easy to round out again).  Also, you will sit there sanding it down...  trying it repeatedly...  Sounds great...  Sounds better...  Sounds AWESOME...  Sounds LIKE CRAP.  Too far.  Next m'pc...  Try again...

Got tired of finding another copy of the same m'pc to do this to again.  Even with pretty consistent pieces, in my case these were Schilke 51s and 60s.

Cheers,
Andy
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« Reply #52 on: Mar 02, 2009, 12:49AM »

When im back from Slide Factory, and i got my most wanted Mouthpiece ever in the pocket, ill go to the music store, take a blindfold, my King 2104F, and have some hours of fun, with trying,,,

I think that a bit smaller mouthpiece (Wick 9BL, instead of my 6BL i got now) will do greast things...
when i am getting mew Mouthpieces, i will inform yall thru TTF
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« Reply #53 on: Mar 02, 2009, 11:44AM »

I can't wait for a big tenor! I have
a Faxx 5G
Yamaha Canadian Brass
Wick 5BL
Josef Klier 5BL
G&W Euros
Griego NY 4.5

to try on one!

waiting...
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« Reply #54 on: Aug 05, 2009, 01:50PM »

I have found that Bach Mouthpieces are the ones that work the best for me. Nothing works for me like my 7C. Resently I picked up a Mt. Vernon 7C. Very different animal. I like it but it is very different from my mid `70`s 7C. Darker and it does not project like the other. However it seems (to me anyway) that there is a sound in the articulation, and a quicker attack.
My 2 cents
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« Reply #55 on: Jan 04, 2013, 04:06PM »

Sometimes I wonder if we don't just adapt to whatever we are using. After several months on the mouthpiece merry go round, I finally decided to stick with the common as dirt Yamaha 48. Why? Rim size felt good and it sounded great on my 3B. I now have a 48D and a 48B, same rim, deeper cup(48D) and shallower cup w/ narrower throat (48B).

I used to play smaller mouthpieces (12c then 7c) and thought I hated 6 1/2 AL. I got a 6 1/2 AL with a horn I recently bought and it played so similar to my Yamaha 48 I could hardly tell the difference. Tone was a bit edgier on the Bach.

Last Summer I played a 5G on a king 4B at a store and though, "This feels a bit big but I could get used to it"

Just make me kind of wonder if we don't fuss a bit too much over mouthpieces.
Keep in mind I'm a weekend player so it might be a whole nother thing for full time pros.
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« Reply #56 on: Dec 09, 2013, 06:04AM »

Just make me kind of wonder if we don't fuss a bit too much over mouthpieces.
Keep in mind I'm a weekend player so it might be a whole nother thing for full time pros.

Until 2 O'clock yesterday I'd agree.

Mailman knocked on the door (Sunday Priority Mail???) and handed me the box from The Horn Guys: my Faxx 4G that was recommended here.

Since I returned after over 30 years off I've been playing a Bach 6 1/2AL even though my last teacher had me use a Wick 5BS, which I never liked. The Bach seemed like the airflow was constricted into my Blessing B-88.

I put the Football game aside, stuck the Faxx in the horn and didn't want to put it down. It's perfect! It fits. It's free blowing. I played above F, cold.

I called The Horn Guys to order Friday afternoon and there it was in Asheville Sunday afternoon at regular Priority Mail pricing! What service!
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« Reply #57 on: Apr 21, 2014, 04:43AM »

The last trombone I'm playing with chose me...  I did not know that I was going that way all along for this trombone to become mine...  It all began by myself playing my slide with my left hand...  years ago... seated on a hay stack in a wagon...  the trombone I now play with is the one owned by the brother of the euphonium player sitting in front of me at that time, this trombone player playing left handed, its right hand being handicapped.
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« Reply #58 on: Nov 03, 2016, 12:28PM »

I read the hole tread here because the forum is a little dead these day...and its interesting. I have finished my seek for mouthpieces, but sometimes I take up the box just to check for fun. Not many left actually because I sold most of them. I do the blindtest method like Sam tell and like him my Bach 1.5g Vernon always win.

Then I begin to wonder about one thing. Is this method really fair. Because most of us play best on the gear we are used to play. Even if we try to confuse our lips with playing many mouthpieces, wouldn't the one we played for a long period sound best? I can fool my lips in a blindtest so I dont recognize which mouthpiece is which. Still I wonder if the one we are used to play, still will sound best? What do you think?

Leif

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« Reply #59 on: Nov 03, 2016, 08:53PM »

I read the hole tread here because the forum is a little dead these day...and its interesting. I have finished my seek for mouthpieces, but sometimes I take up the box just to check for fun. Not many left actually because I sold most of them. I do the blindtest method like Sam tell and like him my Bach 1.5g Vernon always win.

Then I begin to wonder about one thing. Is this method really fair. Because most of us play best on the gear we are used to play. Even if we try to confuse our lips with playing many mouthpieces, wouldn't the one we played for a long period sound best? I can fool my lips in a blindtest so I dont recognize which mouthpiece is which. Still I wonder if the one we are used to play, still will sound best? What do you think?

Leif



Not for me, Leif. Not often, but once in a while...years in between sometimes...one m'pce that I have been using for years comes in second to a new one. Why? My own chop changes? Simply a better fit to my own ongoing and basically unchanged embouchure? Differing musical requirements? A combination of all of those things plus others that I can't imagine. I don't know. Whatever. The fact remains...the m'pces that 'win" almost always survive for years against all challengers.

And then...eventually...things always change.

So it goes.

Good luck and happy hunting...

S.
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