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The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentMouthpieces(Moderators: BGuttman, Doug Elliott) And who in their right mind chooses ANY mouthpiece? Plus how to choose, as well.
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slidejj

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« Reply #20 on: Sep 05, 2007, 10:21AM »

Another fascinating thread, like the 1-1/2G one.  I recently bought a late 50's Olds Opera, when it gets back from the tech, I'll try a blindfold test to find a mouthpiece, something I haven't tried that seems worthwhile.

Where else could I learn about the difference in King leadpipes?  I wonder if that does give 2B/3B's that distinctive sound... must be more than the curved brace, right?  Clever  :D
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« Reply #21 on: Sep 05, 2007, 10:23AM »

bonearzt beat me to it with the leadpipes in Kings, thanks. The Callet bass pipe was also made this way. What you get.. as you do in all trumpets, is a step, that the bottom of the mouthpiece should butt up against if it is a good fit. the adjustable reciever allowed the mouthpiece to slide in and out so that it could be pushed in until it met the step in the pipe. In theory, the trumpet has no sudden jump in the bore, where the trombone will always have one at the end of the mouthpiece shank, unless it's a king or Callet pipe.

Chris Stearn.

Yeah but...what does it DO???

Provided of course that:

A-The width of the metal at the opening at the end of the m'pce and that of the step at the end of the receiver are exactly the same.

B-The m'pce actually goes in far enough so that it does butt up against said step.

and

C-That depth is the proper one for the m'pce/horn/player interface.

A lotta ifs there.

Anyone ever see a trombone with an adjustable receiver that could ameliorate a few of those questions?

S.
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« Reply #22 on: Sep 05, 2007, 10:28AM »

Another fascinating thread, like the 1-1/2G one.  I recently bought a late 50's Olds Opera, when it gets back from the tech, I'll try a blindfold test to find a mouthpiece, something I haven't tried that seems worthwhile.

Where else could I learn about the difference in King leadpipes?  I wonder if that does give 2B/3B's that distinctive sound... must be more than the curved brace, right?  Clever  :D

Olds horns open a whole 'nother can of kickass. They used a different taper in their receivers and what that decision essentially guaranteed is that only their m'pces fit right. AND...their m'pces sucked. Which is one reason why Olds horns never became as popular as their quality suggested they should become among serious pros.

Have fun trying, though...

Once again, a little creative buffing of your m'pce and some teflon p[lumber's tape should help with the problem.

Later...

S.
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« Reply #23 on: Sep 05, 2007, 11:00AM »

Yeah but...what does it DO???

Provided of course that:

A-The width of the metal at the opening at the end of the m'pce and that of the step at the end of the receiver are exactly the same.

B-The m'pce actually goes in far enough so that it does butt up against said step.

and

C-That depth is the proper one for the m'pce/horn/player interface.

A lotta ifs there.

Anyone ever see a trombone with an adjustable receiver that could ameliorate a few of those questions?

S.

I agree... a lot of 'ifs'.
Somebody at King, probably way back, thought it would help make a better trombone. I bet most of the other makers tried it, found that it made little or no difference, and kept on with the simpler, cheaper style leadpipe.
Let's face it, there's every chance that most trumpets and mouthpieces do not fit together perfectly.. leaving a worse kind of gap than our end-of-shank step down.
Chris Stearn.
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« Reply #24 on: Sep 05, 2007, 05:25PM »

I thought most trumpets were designed to HAVE a gap between the end of the mouthpiece and the leadpipe, and that the dimension of that gap was important.
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« Reply #25 on: Sep 05, 2007, 06:54PM »

Yes, most of the trumpet players I know that have adjustable receivers "dial in" a particular gap between the end of the piece and the pipe.

I think the King style pipe could have applications in all bore sizes, it's just a question of getting someone to make them.

Cheers
M
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« Reply #26 on: Sep 05, 2007, 08:40PM »

bonearzt beat me to it with the leadpipes in Kings, thanks. The Callet bass pipe was also made this way. What you get.. as you do in all trumpets, is a step, that the bottom of the mouthpiece should butt up against if it is a good fit. the adjustable reciever allowed the mouthpiece to slide in and out so that it could be pushed in until it met the step in the pipe. In theory, the trumpet has no sudden jump in the bore, where the trombone will always have one at the end of the mouthpiece shank, unless it's a king or Callet pipe.

Chris Stearn.


Actually...

With trumpets, the optimum distance from the leadpipe (or venturi, what you want to call it) is 2mm. My friend's father learned this for the first time in his career (30+ years) at the recent Yellowstone Jazz camp. His friend, a trumpet player formerly with Buddy Rich, showed him that by placing a small rolled up piece of paper in the leadpipe, the mouthpiece would be the right distance away from the leadpipe. He had even done a placebo blind test... and Dr. Bull (my friend's father) was wowed out of seat at how well his Strad 72 played with the mouthpiece just the 2mm away from the start of the leadpipe. Lucky for them, one of their favorite Bbs is a Courtois with a screw on the leadpipe to change the distance.
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« Reply #27 on: Sep 06, 2007, 07:21AM »

Actually one of the things that I'm having done is having the old leadpipe removed and Shires leadpipe installed.  The original receiver is very weird, it's hard to get a mpc to fit well.  I was actually having more success with small shank mpc with adaptor which convinced me I had to find a more "standard" leadpipe.  But the sound of that nickel bell... sweet.

Olds horns open a whole 'nother can of kickass. They used a different taper in their receivers and what that decision essentially guaranteed is that only their m'pces fit right. AND...their m'pces sucked. Which is one reason why Olds horns never became as popular as their quality suggested they should become among serious pros.

Have fun trying, though...

Once again, a little creative buffing of your m'pce and some teflon p[lumber's tape should help with the problem.

Later...

S.
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« Reply #28 on: Sep 06, 2007, 02:26PM »

I would have to agree with what Gabe said, that there should be a gap.

I had a mouthpiece altered so that it sat in to the horn ( a 2b+ ) with no gap......the result.........absolutely dreadful.

As to there being an optimum gap, I think this is going to vary depending on the myriad of variations between horn, mouthpiece and most importantly the player.

Incidentally, I have seen quite a few pipes that have been removed from older King 2b's and they were made in one piece just like Bach's and Conn's are.

Would be interesting to know when they changed over?, and who was behind it ?


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« Reply #29 on: Sep 06, 2007, 04:30PM »

I would have to agree with what Gabe said, that there should be a gap.

I had a mouthpiece altered so that it sat in to the horn ( a 2b+ ) with no gap......the result.........absolutely dreadful.

As to there being an optimum gap, I think this is going to vary depending on the myriad of variations between horn, mouthpiece and most importantly the player.

Incidentally, I have seen quite a few pipes that have been removed from older King 2b's and they were made in one piece just like Bach's and Conn's are.

Would be interesting to know when they changed over?, and who was behind it ?


BellEnd

I stand corrected about the gap. The trumpet I was shown was designed to eliminate the gap.. at least that's what the designer told me. I don't know about other models... and that was a pre-production example. They must have gone their own way.
Chris Stearn.
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« Reply #30 on: Sep 06, 2007, 04:46PM »

Interesting thing is that turbulence is a very vital factor in horn design, too. If it's induced in the right spots (like at the end of a mouthpiece, or the handslide receiver shank) it can have fantastic benefits. If it's removed, it can have disasterous results. Oh, gawd, there's another can of worms just opened up....

Cheers,
M
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« Reply #31 on: Sep 06, 2007, 07:10PM »

Quote
Olds horns open a whole 'nother can of kickass. They used a different taper in their receivers and what that decision essentially guaranteed is that only their m'pces fit right. AND...their m'pces sucked. Which is one reason why Olds horns never became as popular as their quality suggested they should become among serious pros.

 I take a certain amount of issue with this as I've got several Olds mouthpieces and some of them are quite good.  They're just different...not like anything else really, and I have had less uccess with them on horns other Olds. 

But with an Olds with the right one, watch out.  I had an Olds Standard that I still regret selling and it was absolutely amazing with both an Olds 3 and an Olds 12C that i had.

The problem was, as I see it, that they went their own way while the rest of the American market went for a more standardized apporach..the days of playing the mouthpiece that came with the horn came to an end in the late 40's / 50's and Olds never moved beyond it.  That and a really small outfit on the West Coast exclusively without input/output to the rest of the country and there you have it.

I have a European shank NY bach 8 that work FANTASTIC o the Olds Opera.  One day I'll buy a horn to go with the mouthpiece.

The very issue of turbulence of various horns is why I have several mouthpieces in the smae genral sizes.  Well that and resonance too.  Different horns react differently so why not some different pieces to work best with them.  i have a mouthpiece that works great on a lot fo things, but a couple of pieces just bing out the most of other horns.

We have to be willing to give up a little on the soft/malleable side too to get the right combination.

But or faces/playing concept has to be in shape enough that we can both tell the difference between what works and doesn't, and so that we can make the neccessary adjustments ot use the quipment that is best suited to each other.  I.E, the soft tissue to mouthpiece to instrument interface.

A quick note...Sam's teflon tape trick really works.  I don't use it because I mainly play vintage istruments for which there are either no or inadequate replacement parts, so I am unwilling to modify them in an attempt to do this.  A good playing horn is worth more than the $200 I'll spend on finding the right mouthpiece.

Woo-Hoo
-Ben
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« Reply #32 on: Sep 06, 2007, 07:24PM »

I take a certain amount of issue with this as I've got several Olds mouthpieces and some of them are quite good.  They're just different...not like anything else really, and I have had less uccess with them on horns other Olds. 

I should heve been more specific.

They did NOT "suck". They played very well when matched with Olds horns. But they FELT like they sucked when played with other horns, and thus they also felt strange compared to the mainstream Bach-ish m'pces to which most of us had grown accustomed.

So...the horns didn't play well with other brands of m'pces, and the m'pces that DID make them play well felt...well, they felt foreign, to put it mildly.

Thus...the horns never got as popular as they might have gotten.

A self-fulfilling, Catch-22 kind of prophecy.

Better?

---snip---

-Ben
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« Reply #33 on: Sep 06, 2007, 07:27PM »

Interesting thing is that turbulence is a very vital factor in horn design, too. If it's induced in the right spots (like at the end of a mouthpiece, or the handslide receiver shank) it can have fantastic benefits. If it's removed, it can have disasterous results. Oh, gawd, there's another can of worms just opened up....

Cheers,
M

Or...there's another can of worms closed up.

How?

Do not worry about "the gap". OR turbulence. Simply find the right m'pce depth...right for YOU...and go on about your business.

I'm my OWN wind tunnel.

You can be, too.

S.

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« Reply #34 on: Sep 06, 2007, 08:06PM »

Quote
I take a certain amount of issue with this as I've got several Olds mouthpieces and some of them are quite good.  They're just different...not like anything else really, and I have had less uccess with them on horns other Olds.

I should heve been more specific.

They did NOT "suck". They played very well when matched with Olds horns. But they FELT like they sucked when played with other horns, and thus they also felt strange compared to the mainstream Bach-ish m'pces to which most of us had grown accustomed.

So...the horns didn't play well with other brands of m'pces, and the m'pces that DID make them play well felt...well, they felt foreign, to put it mildly.

Thus...the horns never got as popular as they might have gotten.

A self-fulfilling, Catch-22 kind of prophecy.

Better?

Yes'm, much better.  I figured as long as we're talking about "why choose any mouthpiece" we might as well explore the different sides of the issue. 

Poor buisness plans included...

Just as a minor aside, several trumpet playing friends speak of the Olds recording modle trumpets with almost reverential deference...or at least the ones open to sounds other than Bach's.  Aparently they play great with any mouthpiece, so i don't know what was up with the trombones.

-Ben

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« Reply #35 on: Sep 06, 2007, 08:44PM »

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« Reply #36 on: Sep 12, 2007, 06:21PM »

So what about the Bach mpcs that are generally considered to be in between the 6.5AL and the 11C in size? I've been playing a 7C for a month or so on my .500 bore horn and think I like.
     Observation: even if the end of the mpc shank is snug against the receiver wall, there's still a big change in bore equal to 2X the shank wall thickness.
     I have a .525 bore slide put together by Graham Middleton with Shires tubes and crook and a King 607 handle and leadpipe. It had a fitting to connect it to a King .525 bell and I converted it to a Shires fitting. Graham was working at Shires at the time and sent me the fitting along with a short piece of tubing for me to cut and connect to the lower tube inside the taper, so that the lower tube would be .525 all the way to the end of the taper. I'm not sure I can detect any difference with or without this 3/8 of an inch of tubing. With it, there's a single large change in bore at the end of the taper into the neckpipe. Without it, there's two smaller, close-together changes in bore.
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« Reply #37 on: Sep 14, 2007, 02:26PM »

The distance from the end of the m'pc to the smallest part of the receiver makes a big difference in response.  Burt Herrick and Larry Minick both understood this and it's one of the features that makes them superior to stock leadpipes.

Bob Reeves in hollywood makes an adjustable gap receiever for trumpets.  Someone also makes one for tubas but the name escapes me.

The Duo Gravis has a two piece leadpipe that accounts for much of it's edge.

In my mind I always pictured the taper of the backbore flowing smoothly through the leadpipe as a single taper...Way Wrong.  A taper, a constriction and another taper... a dual venturi.

Old shanks and old receivers change over time, moving the distance from the backbore to the leadpipe constriction...which most players accomodate over the years.  It's only when trying a different horn and the response is very different that the notice.
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« Reply #38 on: Sep 14, 2007, 03:03PM »

Quote
Someone also makes one for tubas but the name escapes me.

Steve Dillon
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« Reply #39 on: Sep 18, 2007, 08:41AM »

Mouthpiece gots t'feel right.  Love how the Bach 7C plays for lead/solo stuff, and I can get more punch in the mid-to-low range than on other smaller pieces, but I find it uncomfortable.  Bach 6.5 AL feels good and sounds good all up and down the range, will always want to have one handy.

Wick 6BS and 10CS FEEL great to me.  The 10 is my fave for lead/solo work and the 6 is overall nice but limits me a little in the lower register, as it feels weak and I perceive that it sounds mushy down there, narrow backbore does that I think.

On leadpipes, I don't even know what the heck kinda leadpipe is in my Yamaha 684 .525, but that thing slots just right in all partials so that I can use all of my favorite alternate positions in the high register.  Can't say the same of the Bach LT16M.
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