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The Trombone ForumTeaching & LearningPractice Room(Moderators: blast, WaltTrombone) The Reinhardt Routines—a total embouchure development plan
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RichWilley
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« on: Sep 17, 2007, 09:40AM »

Now available here: The Reinhardt Routines—a total embouchure development plan  for trombone.

Dr. Donald S. Reinhardt's sheer genius is finally available to those who really want to develop no-nonsense trombone chops and improve their musicianship without suffering from "analysis paralysis."

Dave Sheetz (Reinhardt's heir apparent) and I took great pains to develop a method book that requires no knowledge of Reinhardt's teaching. All you do is play what you see as it's presented with a minimal amount of text. Complete with an Eleven Day plan that you rotate through again and again, there are also "Supplemental Routines" that will help you iron out wrinkles in all areas of your trombone playing and your overall musicianship.

Some of you know me as a trumpet player who also plays valve trombone and bass trumpet. Being "ambidextrous" with brass instruments gives me an interesting vantage point from which to thoroughly marvel at the depth of Dr. Donald S. Reinhardt's brilliance.

I'm sure many of you have been waiting for a set of routines that will have you building your range, endurance, sound, flexibility, slide technique, articulation, dynamics, etc., and especially your musicianship. You don't have to wait any longer. It's here.
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« Reply #1 on: Sep 18, 2007, 05:29AM »

OK, Dave Wilkins (sp?) and Doug Elliot, our resident embouchure guys, peer review this book!
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« Reply #2 on: Sep 18, 2007, 07:53AM »

OK, Dave Wilkins (sp?) and Doug Elliot, our resident embouchure guys, peer review this book!

I know Doug was a student of Reinhardt's...maybe Dave was too. Both have an insane embouchure knowledge and I too would love to see their thoughts on this book.
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« Reply #3 on: Sep 18, 2007, 06:59PM »

Well, my name isn't Dave or Doug, but I do know a fair amount about Reinhardt's teachings.  This book is basically a reproduction of an out-of-print book Reinhardt wrote in 1942.  The book is an eleven day routine that you repeat over and over again.  The material is systematic and takes you through a LOT of different techniques.  The material is written with a lot of Reinhardt's ideas on embouchure embedded in the exercise.  So, while it may not be of interest for you to know WHY the exercises are written as they are, it may be comforting to know that Reinhardt's teachings are in the entire book!

In addition to the original 1942 edition, Rich Willey and Dave Sheetz have updated the material based on corrections and updates made to the material over the course of his long teaching career.  Also, Dave and Rich have suplemented the material with additional routines that you can use to iron out many areas of your technique.

I've heard many criticisms of Reinhardt based on it not being practical for someone to approach the material without a teacher.  This is something Dave Sheetz and I tried to rectify at the ITG conference this Spring with a masterclass we gave.  This book is really an extention of what we talked about there.  For someone who has never read a word about what Reinhardt said about embouchure (or other) mechanics, the exercises will bring you a long way toward developing your chops without that knowledge.  For someone who has read the encyclopedia and did not know how to proceed, this book will give you a concrete routine to use along with your newly-aquired knowledge.

This book is the practical approach many have been looking for with Reinhardt's teachings.  However, be aware that there is very little text about embouchure here.  If you are looking for more on THAT subject, get a copy of Reinhardt's Encylopedia of the Pivot System.  Also, on the web you can read more about the subject in greatly simplified form at:

http://trombone.org/articles/library/viewarticles.asp?ArtID=240  and

http://www.mediafire.com/?4v2nalevufw  (This is an outline I did for the presentation at the ITG conference this year).

If you try it out, let us know what you think!!

Rich
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« Reply #4 on: Sep 18, 2007, 09:51PM »

Hi,


 Is this book just a collection of exercises created by Reinhardt? Does the book cover what embouchure type you have, or a diagnostic tool for deducing your embouchure type? I had a lesson with Doug Elliott a few months ago, and personally I think trying to tackle embouchure studies using Reinhardts classifications would be very difficult and possibly detrimental without the help of someone who is very knowledgeable being at your side.

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RichWilley
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« Reply #5 on: Sep 19, 2007, 08:11AM »

Quote from: entransit
Is this book just a collection of exercises created by Reinhardt? Does the book cover what embouchure type you have, or a diagnostic tool for deducing your embouchure type? I had a lesson with Doug Elliott a few months ago, and personally I think trying to tackle embouchure studies using Reinhardts classifications would be very difficult and possibly detrimental without the help of someone who is very knowledgeable being at your side.

I think much of your concern was already addressed in the previous post:

Quote from: Pivotbone
For someone who has never read a word about what Reinhardt said about embouchure (or other) mechanics, the exercises will bring you a long way toward developing your chops without that knowledge.  For someone who has read the encyclopedia and did not know how to proceed, this book will give you a concrete routine to use along with your newly-aquired knowledge.

Let's face it . . . a player who doesn't know what type he/she is who is doing things contrary to that may never reach his/her full potential. However, there are drills that can help erase bad habits and replace them with new, good habits.

And, think about it this way: those people doing things contrary to their physical type playing out of all the standard method books hardly stand a chance of arriving at an organized regimen of drills to correct their playing.

However, those same people stand a much better chance of overcoming many of those obstacles by playing out of a regimen of drills organized specifically to undo bad habits and create good habits.

That is the premise of this book; doing an organized regimen of drills that encourage positive embouchure development. I personally don't believe that you can continue to rotate through these drills and not see dramatic improvement.

You also have this forum to go to with any questions or concerns you may have and get informed answers from Doug or Dave . . . or even me.
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RichWilley
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« Reply #6 on: Sep 21, 2007, 08:24AM »

OK, Dave Wilkins (sp?) and Doug Elliot, our resident embouchure guys, peer review this book!

Dave Wilken has his copy; I trust he's going through it thoroughly before commenting. Doug's copy is on its way to him, and I expect he'll also have some thoughtful comments for us.

There's one routine in there that Doc gave me when I was working on slide technique called The Glizzando High Register Routine. I remember Doc told me there was no excuse for a trombonist not having a consistent, usable and musical high F if he (or she) uses that routine.

As it reads in the book:
Quote
Dr. Donald S. Reinhardt used The Glizzando High Register Routine for trombone for over fifty years. It is a time-tested, proven routine that is used for the purpose of developing and maintaining a good, solid, maneuverable high register.
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Dave
« Reply #7 on: Sep 21, 2007, 10:59AM »

I just got the book a couple of days ago and have had a chance to read it through and digest it.

I was familiar with most of the exercises, but not all.  Much of the book is material that was previously published, but the older publication assumed that you were taking lessons with Reinhardt and didn't include the specific instructions.  There's also a good amount of other exercises and routines that as far as I know has never been published before.

Good stuff.  I think there's a lot of material that anyone can benefit from, regardless of background.

Quote
Is this book just a collection of exercises created by Reinhardt?

Mostly, but there's a lot of written text that explains how to practice the exercises to derive the most benefit possible.

Quote
Does the book cover what embouchure type you have, or a diagnostic tool for deducing your embouchure type?

Not at all.  I suspect that you also understand why.

Quote
had a lesson with Doug Elliott a few months ago, and personally I think trying to tackle embouchure studies using Reinhardts classifications would be very difficult and possibly detrimental without the help of someone who is very knowledgeable being at your side.

Since you understand the personal nature of brass players' embouchures, you also understand how some specific instructions for one player can be exactly opposite of what another player needs to do.  The instructions in this book cover what's appropriate for all players and also give some advice on how to fine tune it for your own best approach.  But this is something that you should be doing already with whatever you already use.  As far as what's unique to the individual, if you're aware of your embouchure type you can use this book (or whatever you use) to even better effect because of that knowledge.

I think "The Reinhardt Routines" offer a nice, viable alternative for someone who is looking for a new approach to developing routine work that covers virtually all the technical challenges trombonists come across when playing most in most musical situations.  You'll find things in it that resemble Arban's, Remington, Caruso, Baker, and probably others.  Taken individually the basic approach of the exercises probably aren't really unique to Reinhardt (long tones, flexibility studies, articulation studies, high range exercises, etc.).  The real value lies in how it is organized to address everything over the long term and allow easy modification for individual needs and goals.


Dave
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RichWilley
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« Reply #8 on: Sep 25, 2007, 09:00PM »

Quote from: Dave
You'll find things in it that resemble Arban's, Remington, Caruso, Baker, and probably others.  Taken individually the basic approach of the exercises probably aren't really unique to Reinhardt (long tones, flexibility studies, articulation studies, high range exercises, etc.).  The real value lies in how it is organized to address everything over the long term and allow easy modification for individual needs and goals.

Excellent points, Dave!

This is not an instant gratification book; this is one for those content to make steady progress over the long term. That being said, though, I think some people might be noticing improvements in their playing before they make it all the way around the full Eleven Day regimen the first time.

On thing different from some books is that this one is written up to the high F, and contains a concrete plan to get you up there and really playing up there. This is not one of those books that you have to take things up an octave to get beyond the "high school" high Bb.

Many more people than Dave (on this forum) have this book in their possession. I'd love to hear from them, also.

Thanks for your insights and observations, Dave!
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« Reply #9 on: Sep 25, 2007, 11:17PM »

I've just received the book, and am looking forward to working with it.  I have a question, possibly regarding a typo.  At the bottom of p. 43, in point #5, the reader is referred to pp. 21-22, and asked to play drills 1, 3, 6, 10, and 12.  Then, point #6 says to use drills 1-14.  But on pp. 21-22, there are only 10 drills.  Are the instructions on p. 43 referring to the wrong pages?   Don't know
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RichWilley
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« Reply #10 on: Sep 26, 2007, 04:33AM »

I've just received the book, and am looking forward to working with it.  I have a question, possibly regarding a typo.  At the bottom of p. 43, in point #5, the reader is referred to pp. 21-22, and asked to play drills 1, 3, 6, 10, and 12.  Then, point #6 says to use drills 1-14.  But on pp. 21-22, there are only 10 drills.  Are the instructions on p. 43 referring to the wrong pages?   Don't know

Aaagh! You are right! That should say pp.24-25! Good catch! I will go fix that right now on the master so that the next printing is correct. Thank you!!!

So, tell us, if you haven't even started, what are you doing on page 43?

(Not that there's anything wrong with that!)

 :)
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« Reply #11 on: Sep 26, 2007, 11:32AM »

I'm one of those guys who always "reads the users manual" first.  :)  I'm in the middle of a bunch of work right now, and I don't consider that the best time to change my practice routine.
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« Reply #12 on: Sep 26, 2007, 09:12PM »

I just started lessons with a  graduate trombone student here at UMass who himself studies with someone (can't remember the name) who was a long time student of Reinhardt.  In that first lesson we identified my embouchure type and a list of things that I don't do "right" - right meaning the way that will get the best results.  For the first time ever I am thinking about pivot/tracking and even during the 2 hour lesson he told me that he noticed an improvement in my playing.  Now, since I'm in marching band I'll admit I'm not in the greatest shape to play cultured music, but I'm still not that bad. 
Included in the routine my teacher (Rich) put together for me was the "glissando to the high register" which i can definitely tell will expand and relax my high register.  I'm also going to be reading excerpts out of the "Pivot Encyclopedia"

Overall I'm very excited to start studying this way, Rich showed me that it gets results, he could easily slur from Bb1 to Bb5 with good tone.
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« Reply #13 on: Sep 27, 2007, 03:51AM »

I just started lessons with a  graduate trombone student here at UMass who himself studies with someone (can't remember the name) who was a long time student of Reinhardt.  In that first lesson we identified my embouchure type and a list of things that I don't do "right" - right meaning the way that will get the best results.  For the first time ever I am thinking about pivot/tracking and even during the 2 hour lesson he told me that he noticed an improvement in my playing.  Now, since I'm in marching band I'll admit I'm not in the greatest shape to play cultured music, but I'm still not that bad. 
Included in the routine my teacher (Rich) put together for me was the "glissando to the high register" which i can definitely tell will expand and relax my high register.  I'm also going to be reading excerpts out of the "Pivot Encyclopedia"

Overall I'm very excited to start studying this way, Rich showed me that it gets results, he could easily slur from Bb1 to Bb5 with good tone.


Hey Chris, I'm glad to hear you enjoyed the lesson!  We may get you working out of this book soon!

Rich
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AxSlinger7String

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« Reply #14 on: Sep 27, 2007, 05:20AM »

Haha, I've mentioned the forum to a couple people in my section in band to explain where I learned/heard a few of the things that tend to come out of my mouth, but I never knew anybody that actually posted before.
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« Reply #15 on: Sep 27, 2007, 08:54AM »

Haha, I've mentioned the forum to a couple people in my section in band to explain where I learned/heard a few of the things that tend to come out of my mouth, but I never knew anybody that actually posted before.

What, I don't count? ;-)
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« Reply #16 on: Sep 27, 2007, 09:09AM »

I was expecting that.   I met you through the forum; and got a great deal out of it.  I didn't know Rich was on here when I met him; it gives you more of that small-world feeling.
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« Reply #17 on: Oct 01, 2007, 11:44PM »

I'm very curious here...how about it, Doug, have you checked out the book?

thanks,
   Michael
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Doug Elliott
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« Reply #18 on: Oct 02, 2007, 03:06PM »

My review of “The Reinhardt Routines”:

The original “Pivot System” manual was my introduction to Reinhardt’s ideas, long before I studied with him.  I had forgotten about many of those exercises; the book has been out of print for years and I don’t even know if I still own a copy.

“The Reinhardt Routines,” compiled and edited by Rich Willey who was studying with Reinhardt at the same time I was, is a collection of that material, plus most of the other exercises “Doc” gave his students.

It is organized into an 11 day routine intended to be a warm-up for each day, encompassing many aspects of his teaching, and using range up to high F (or beyond) every day.  Some of it is quite strenuous when done as presented, but you don’t have to do everything - it is designed to use whatever range is available “without strain.”

For those familiar with the more standard warm-ups like Remington, there are similarities, but obvious differences.  Many of Reinhardt’s exercises start at the top and go down and back up, where other teachers’ warm-ups would start at the bottom and go up and back down.  Also, each day is different - you cover everything by rotating through the 11 day cycle.

The instructions scattered throughout the book show a little about the way he taught.  They make you think about the way you practice, not just play the notes.  There are warnings to not use too much mouthpiece pressure, avoid straining, and rest frequently.  He tells you where to breathe and where not to breathe; how soft or loud to play each exercise, with crescendos and diminuendos marked; when to use different kinds of attacks, often starting with no tongue; how to use vowel sounds to change the tongue level for different ranges.  Some of his ideas on slide technique are included.  Alternate positions are covered, as well as playing in all keys.

Nothing will take the place of actually studying with the man himself.  But this book gives considerable insight into the way he taught brass playing.  It doesn’t include anything about his embouchure types – that’s a whole different subject.  Reinhardt is typically known to most players only in terms of his focus on embouchures, however there was so much more to his teaching.  This book is a good introduction to that.

I highly recommend this book to anyone who is serious about improving their playing, at any level.  Even so, I don’t agree with everything in it.  The instructions are to start every day with the “Pivot Stabilizer.”  That exercise was intended specifically to work on your particular “pivot” or “embouchure motion” as I prefer to call it.  If you don’t completely understand or are not properly instructed in your personal embouchure mechanics, this exercise could do more harm than good.  I suggest skipping the Pivot Stabilizer entirely.  There is a lot to be gained from the rest of the book.  Also, Reinhardt’s language and writing style is very “old school” – he wrote this book in 1942 – and it can be a little hard to understand some of his terminology.

Get the book!  You can find it at www.boptism.com along with lots more good stuff from Rich Willey’s publishing company.
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« Reply #19 on: Oct 03, 2007, 11:43PM »

Thanks Doug. That's all the endorsement I need! BTW Doug, let me know if you're ever out in CA. Would love a lesson.

Later,
   Michael
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« Reply #20 on: Oct 04, 2007, 06:39AM »

I have most of the other Reinhardt material but this one is the most practical for practicing. One thing that I have been wondering about.  Reinhardt advises against crossing the legs when playing because "serious damage can occur".  Damage to what? 

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Doug Elliott
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« Reply #21 on: Oct 04, 2007, 08:05AM »

He was always concerned about anything that might cause or contribute to any playing problems, especially getting a hernia from the abdominal pressure of playing.  I think in the 40's that was not uncommon, plus don't forget that a lot of his students were trumpet players intent on being able to scream Double High C's and higher.  His whole System is designed to teach how to play without problems for the rest of your life.  There's no good reason why brass players should have a limited length of career. And that includes the problems that people blame on "focal dystonia" which is a very real disdorder but I believe has no relation to the damage that has caused some well known brass players to retire.

But I digress...

I cross my legs half the time.  It can cause knee problems if nothing else.
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« Reply #22 on: Oct 04, 2007, 08:24AM »

Doug -
Why do you think the opening "Pivot Stabilizer" can cause damage? 
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Doug Elliott
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« Reply #23 on: Oct 04, 2007, 02:38PM »

I said more harm than good; not "damage."

If you are using incorrect motion for your face (and most people who come to me for lessons are), it will give you a false sense of security (after all, you're practing REINHARDT's exercises) with absolutely no knowledge of how you should be doing it or what you should be correcting.  Therefore, the chances are you'll be doing it just as incorrectly as the rest of your playing.  Plus it's a pretty strenuous way to start the day in case you're really doing something wrong.

The other warmup stuff is much more familiar and safe sort of exercises.

In the time I studied with Reinhardt I saw way too many people get turned off of it because they didn't understand their personal corrections or HOW to practice his stuff.  I teach the same material, but differently, to make it more understandable.

Reinhardt always said "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."  He was right.  The Pivot Stabilizer is supposed to come with personalized instructions on how to "stabilize" your "pivot.".  But you got it in a book over the internet with no instructions.  There's lots more to it than just playing the exercise.
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« Reply #24 on: Oct 04, 2007, 03:06PM »

Thanks, Doug.
Next coupla questions:
Nose Breathing? - does that mean to keep the embouchure set on the mouthpiece and inhale through your nose, or does it mean to relax the embouchure while still maintaining contact w/ the mouthpiece and inhale through your nose?

Hooo Attacks - I'm on day 4 (started on Monday) - So far, the daily routines start off with Hooo attacks.  After a bunch of LongTone-esque exercises that start with "Hooo", I'm finding it difficult to have a focused attack - basically what comes out is something more akin to a "Th" instead of a clear "Tooo" or "Dooo" articulation.  I find that I need to stop the routine, do some articulation exercises, then go back to the Reinhardt book.  Any suggestions on what might be going on? or is this normal, until one becomes acclimated to this routine?

Thanks for your insight.

PS - Tower of Power has a great song on their CD Monster on a Leash called A Little Knowledge is a Dangerous Thing
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Doug Elliott
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« Reply #25 on: Oct 04, 2007, 03:50PM »

Nose Breathing? - does that mean to keep the embouchure set on the mouthpiece and inhale through your nose, or does it mean to relax the embouchure while still maintaining contact w/ the mouthpiece and inhale through your nose?

To make it perfectly clear:

Always stay completely firm (as if you are still playing) with full mouthpiece pressure too, during a nose breath.  You should not feel or see any change in your face between playing and breathing.   Clear?

Hooo Attacks -   After a bunch of LongTone-esque exercises that start with "Hooo", I'm finding it difficult to have a focused attack - basically what comes out is something more akin to a "Th" instead of a clear "Tooo" or "Dooo" articulation. ...  Any suggestions on what might be going on?

Something is changing that shouldn't be.  The quickest solution is to mix up the attacks - don't do so many Hooo attacks in a row. But that's just masking the symptom.  It shouldn't be happening.

It sounds related to my first answer above.  You're relaxing (collapsing) before the Hooo attacks when you should be staying firm.
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« Reply #26 on: Oct 05, 2007, 04:50AM »

Reinhardt always said "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."  He was right.  The Pivot Stabilizer is supposed to come with personalized instructions on how to "stabilize" your "pivot.".  But you got it in a book over the internet with no instructions.  There's lots more to it than just playing the exercise.

Actually, there are a lot of instructions on that page, starting with:
Quote
1. When executing descending slurs, always keep the “weight” on the lower lip. This prevents the unwanted “jaw drop” for the lower register and is the key to all-around correct brass playing.

Reinhardt told me* that you could boil it all down to keeping the “weight” on the lower lip when doing a descending slur. He told me he always regretted using the word “pivot” and that people made it more complicated than it ever was.

I have gotten many emails from trumpeters and trombonists regarding these routines, and I have concluded that the most important thing to remember is to not try to be a super-hero when playing this stuff. At the first sign of strain, stop. It's really just that simple. Most of us (myself included) have trouble putting the horn down while it's still feeling good, and end up practicing past the point where we're building and end up in that destructive territory where we're tearing down.


*Remember, I moved up there to study with him in '81, and spent the better part of two years seeing him many times a month.
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Dennis K.
« Reply #27 on: Oct 05, 2007, 06:14AM »

Doug - very helpful
Muchas Gracias
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« Reply #28 on: Oct 05, 2007, 08:47AM »

Sorry Rich, I know there are some very valuable instructions there.  But with students "in trouble" I find that that's not enough.  They need very specific direction including showing them what to do, in multiple ways, and making sure they understand.  I see people who have strong tendencies to  play parts of their range using the wrong type for their face.  You know what "keeping the weight on the lower lip to descend" means, but does someone else really understand it?  The cornerstone  of Reinhardt's teaching was his "Pivot" which absolutely needs personal instruction.  That's what the "Pivot Stablizer" was designed for.  I don't think it should be played in a random manner.
*Remember, I moved up there to study with him in '81, and spent the better part of two years seeing him many times a month.

I rest my case.
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« Reply #29 on: Oct 05, 2007, 03:37PM »

Doug, I see your point.  I have been studying Reinhardt's teachings for a few years now, have given lessons on his teachings, etc., and I still find that I have a tendency to reverse pivots in the middle-low register.  The Pivot Stabilizer has been a much-needed check for me to make sure things are going OK or to get things back on track.
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« Reply #30 on: Oct 05, 2007, 04:53PM »

On this forum I have intentionally avoided the term "pivot" except to say that I don't use that word in my teaching.  I don't even use the Pivot Stabilizer.  But here we are...

People are going to think that he taught "waving your horn in the breeze."  (His words)

I would prefer to keep calling it "embouchure motion" (my words) unless somebody has a better idea.

Anyway, this is getting off the subject.  Let the book stand on its own as a comprehensive collection of his written exercises...
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« Reply #31 on: Oct 06, 2007, 04:33PM »

Rich,

More for your "things to fix" list. On page 7, sections 5 & 6 are both missing their key signatures.

I just hope to stay awake through these exercises, they are snoozers to say the least.
 
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« Reply #32 on: Oct 06, 2007, 05:04PM »

Feel free to shorten any execises you don't like.   Just do it in 1st, or 1-2-3-4.  But there is value to those, if you pay attention to the slurs, not the notes.
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« Reply #33 on: Oct 06, 2007, 06:00PM »

Yes, there are key signatures missing in many places. 

One thing you might want to clarify:  The daily prologue emphatically states that one must play on a wet embouchure, but then on p. 7, an instruction begins:  "Regardless of whether you play on a wet or dry embouchure..."

Not trying to be a pain, just helping you get some wrinkles ironed out.  I'm enjoying playing these exercises - except for playing long tones, it's been a while since I've sat myself down for such intense practicing on simple basics for a good chunk of time daily.
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« Reply #34 on: Oct 06, 2007, 07:05PM »

I think that's intentional.  He highly recommended playing wet, but the fact is not everybody does or will.
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« Reply #35 on: Oct 06, 2007, 08:16PM »

Yes, there are key signatures missing in many places.
Thanks, I appreciate your help in finding the errors. I guess that's what happens when a couple trumpet players try to "revise" a trombone book, eh?

Fortunately, the initial "test" run of these books wasn't huge, and we're just about to do a "real thing" run. I will make the corrections noted in this forum (thank you, everybody), and also the part about the Advanced Form Studies in G . . . whoops! It now says F.

I'm also tempted to change all the tempo markings to words only, no metronome markings. This varies from day to day, I have found, depending on how much time I have/want to devote to these routines. Sometimes I do them as quickly as q = 80, and sometimes as slow as q = 50.

Your mileage may vary, too!
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« Reply #36 on: Oct 07, 2007, 12:25AM »

Let us know when you do the "real thing" run. I'm very interested but have purposely waited. Shows you who your real friends are, huh? LOL J/K
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« Reply #37 on: Oct 07, 2007, 01:27AM »

The "errors" are tiny and any halfway intelligent musician would immediately compensate.  The thing with the key signatures is no different than that found on some jazz charts - the first line has the key signature (always key of Bb) but the following lines only have the clef.  I wouldn't hold off buying the book based on a couple typos.  If you know how the horn works, you'll have no problems, so to speak.
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« Reply #38 on: Oct 07, 2007, 05:24AM »

Thanks to this forum I have my pencil out and am making corrections to my copy of the book.  Most first edition printing have some errors.  I'm still finding errors in another great book "The Complete Practice Book" by Paul Tanner.  This has been printed several times and there are still errors. (This is another book that I highly recommend.) I wouldn't wait until the next printing to buy "The Reinhardt Routines"  because of the few errors that have been pointed out.
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« Reply #39 on: Oct 07, 2007, 10:02AM »

The great thing about modern publishing methods is that once a fix in a document is made and saved it's there permanently. In the old days they had to totally reset entire pages which allowed even more errors to creep in while fixes were made.

Also print runs can be much shorter than before, one can print as little as 25-50 copies and still make a reasonable return on investment as costs are lower and turn around times are faster.

Therefore I am never embarrassed to mention print errors to an author as the document WILL get progressively better and better. Pretty much there's no reason for a author NOT to fix the masters anymore :-)
 
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« Reply #40 on: Oct 07, 2007, 10:27AM »

The great thing about modern publishing methods is that once a fix in a document is made and saved it's there permanently. In the old days they had to totally reset entire pages which allowed even more errors to creep in while fixes were made.

Also print runs can be much shorter than before, one can print as little as 25-50 copies and still make a reasonable return on investment as costs are lower and turn around times are faster.

Therefore I am never embarrassed to mention print errors to an author as the document WILL get progressively better and better. Pretty much there's no reason for a author NOT to fix the masters anymore :-)

Very astute, and right on the money! These files are all resident (in their various incarnations) on back-up media, and the corrected files are dated so (hopefully) only the newest one(s) will be used.

I combine Finale files (saved using the graphics tool as 1200 dpi .tif files) with PageMaker files so the final version of each book is one master PageMaker file contained in its own folder right along with all its own art files. When corrections get very extensive, I'll print out a whole new set of masters, which is what I'm preparing to do for getting them to press tomorrow.

The advantage of getting one of the first books from a "modern" publisher is that the flaws will prove it's an original first printing, and may one day fetch bigger bucks on eBay . . . of course, that may not be for decades, but it will be more valuable, just like flawed coins.

Back to work. Thanks again, everybody, for all your comments and suggestions.

By the way, I am eliminating all the metronome markings and just using words (andante, largo, etc.) for the "real thing" run. Oh, and the "test" run was 40 books.
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« Reply #41 on: Oct 09, 2007, 07:32AM »

I bought the book, and am up to Day 4:


One thing I note is that some of the statements seem fairly dogmatic, for instance, inhaling slowly through the nose, as a means of avoiding a quivering sound:  taking in air slowly in this way seems only to limit the amount of air in my lungs, and the length of the phrase I can complete in one breath.

While I want to drink the Reinhart Cool-Aid as much as possible, certain things seem either counter-intuitive, or inapplicable, but before I start doing a "Reinhart according to Paul Martin," I thought best to ask.
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« Reply #42 on: Oct 09, 2007, 07:49AM »

It can take a while to see the real benefits of some of Doc's ideas, but we're talkng about long-term benefits, not quick fixes.  Just do it the way it says.  The only alteration I would suggest is to shorten some of the exercises if you want.  The ones that repeat through all 7 positions can be done 1-4 or just in 1st.  That's how he gave them in later years.  Boredom doesn't accomplish anything.

I can't think of a reason why inhaling slowly through your nose would limit your capacity.
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« Reply #43 on: Oct 09, 2007, 07:55AM »

Doug,

Thanks for the quick response.

The reason for less air is that I'm only drawing in a normal breath through my nose, not a "full tank" as I would normally do quickly through my mouth, it is another thing to relearn.
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« Reply #44 on: Oct 09, 2007, 08:10AM »

You can fill up just as much, but it takes longer. Maybe you can add some beats to compensate?
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« Reply #45 on: Oct 09, 2007, 11:00AM »

Quote
You can fill up just as much, but it takes longer.

I agree.  Reinhardt advocated that in practice you should breathe in slowly whenever possible.  A slow breath tends to be more relaxed than a quick breath.  Over time, the relaxed feeling of a slow inhalation should become part of your normal (interphrase) inhalations without you needing to consciously think about it.

Quote
One thing I note is that some of the statements seem fairly dogmatic,

I never studied from Reinhardt so I can't speak about him from personal experience, just from his books, handouts, and second-hand stories.  He was quite adamant that his exercises were to be played exactly as written, unless he had instructed you personally to do otherwise.  From what I gather, many of his students came to him initially after experimenting with their chops in a way that actually made things worse.  By being as precise as possible with his instructions I think he was trying to avoid students making similar mistakes by experimenting on his exercises in ways that would do more harm than good.

I also suspect that for Reinhardt his exercises served as something of a "control" for learning more about each individual student and about brass players in general.  In the former case he might change a certain aspect of an exercise, select a different one, or eliminate it altogether based on how a particular student responded to practicing that exercise.  If a student is allowed to experiment on the exercise it looses its value as a diagnostic tool as well as risking not doing the job it was designed for.  In the case of brass players in general, by seeing how players with different embouchure patterns responded to the same exercise he was able to formulate practice suggestions that would be more beneficial for the individual player.

I suspect the strictness of instructions he wrote were more for the above reasons than for being unchanging in his beliefs about brass playing.  You can see evolution in his ideas as his observations became more complete by comparing his early books with his later ones.  In fact, I think one of the goals of "The Reinhardt Routines" was to get these exercises out there with text that more accurately reflected how Reinhardt taught late in his career.

I've used the basic routine in my own practice and teaching for years.  Let us know how you feel after you've completed the cycle one time through.  It seems to me that most people start noticing some improvement on the second time around and I'm curious to see if that's typical.  Does anyone else here who uses this routine know?

Good luck!


Dave
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« Reply #46 on: Oct 09, 2007, 07:14PM »

I agree.  Reinhardt advocated that in practice you should breathe in slowly whenever possible.  A slow breath tends to be more relaxed than a quick breath.  Over time, the relaxed feeling of a slow inhalation should become part of your normal (interphrase) inhalations without you needing to consciously think about it.




Reinhardt also said that he believed overly rapid and careless inhalations were the number one cause of embouchure breakdown.  When one inhales more slowly, you are less likely to "cheat" in a muscular sense.  A simple thing like breathing slowly when possible actually has long-ranging chop implications.  Nose inhalations are also used to help one develop the ability to breathe without disturbing the embouchure.  These two techniques go hand in hand.

Rich Hanks
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« Reply #47 on: Oct 09, 2007, 07:46PM »

Thanks, guys, I will reteach myself to breathe as prescribed, and otherwise stick to the explicit instructions in the book.

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« Reply #48 on: Oct 09, 2007, 09:21PM »

So the title of the book says "A Total Embouchure Development Plan".

Im definitely interested in the book, but what exactly is it teaching, only a method in which to build a strong solid embouchure? I just want to clarify in what ways it will improve the user of the exercises. Thanks  =]

Jeff
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« Reply #49 on: Oct 10, 2007, 05:26AM »

I'm intrigued by the breathing ideas. I've been doing th Maggio Studies, and he instructs you to do just the opposite. The Maggio says:

"Take a breath like a drowning man going down for the third time."
Louie's meaning was to get as much air as possible into the lungs in the shortest amount of time.

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« Reply #50 on: Oct 10, 2007, 07:10AM »

One question:

Where should one place the tongue in the Reinhardt world after placing the embouchure, and inhaling?  I have a habit of placing it between my teeth, and then moving it a split second prior to the end of the inhale, and the articulation, but I might guess this would be a bad habit.
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« Reply #51 on: Oct 10, 2007, 08:18AM »

So the title of the book says "A Total Embouchure Development Plan".

Im definitely interested in the book, but what exactly is it teaching, only a method in which to build a strong solid embouchure? I just want to clarify in what ways it will improve the user of the exercises. Thanks  =]

Jeff

I would think that if a method book were "only a method with which to build a strong, solid embouchure," and had this effect, it would be worth its weight in gold, isn't the embouchure 95% of the battle for a brass player, when you get right down to it?
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« Reply #52 on: Oct 10, 2007, 08:56AM »

I would think that if a method book were "only a method with which to build a strong, solid embouchure," and had this effect, it would be worth its weight in gold, isn't the embouchure 95% of the battle for a brass player, when you get right down to it?

I thought that a constant steady airstream is the most important aspect of playing, and with that concept of sound.
Embouchure is just the stance in which all of this takes place, and should simply be a natural take on it. And I realize that it must be steady, but I think the above ideas are far more important. I guess Im placing more emphasis on the musicality potential than the technical potential.

Of course, Im young  =]

Jeff
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« Reply #53 on: Oct 10, 2007, 09:08AM »

I thought that a constant steady airstream is the most important aspect of playing, and with that concept of sound.
Embouchure is just the stance in which all of this takes place, and should simply be a natural take on it. And I realize that it must be steady, but I think the above ideas are far more important. I guess Im placing more emphasis on the musicality potential than the technical potential.

Of course, Im young  =]

Jeff

I don't think you can teach musicality, and I'd suggest that everything physical that takes place behind the mouthpiece, can be considered the embouchure.
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« Reply #54 on: Oct 10, 2007, 09:22AM »

I don't think you can teach musicality, and I'd suggest that everything physical that takes place behind the mouthpiece, can be considered the embouchure.
This is a whole nuther ball o' wax, probably worthy of its own topic:

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,36110.0.html
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« Reply #55 on: Oct 10, 2007, 09:24AM »

Quote
Embouchure is just the stance in which all of this takes place, and should simply be a natural take on it.

Not to suggest that air and concept are unimportant, but embouchure is both the "nozzle" that controls the air, and the vibrating medium itself. When we practice long tones, we are actually learning to balance the airflow vs. chops in order to get the desired musical result.

Some folks prefer to take a simplified Jacobs approach to playing- If it sounds good, you're probably doing it right. (The more I learn of Jacobs, the more I realize that that's vastly oversimplifying his work.)

Others are more analytical, and need to pick apart every discrete step. There are also those who have been told for years that their chops need to be a certain way, which may be totally wrong for them, and now they've hit a brick wall. (Ask Jan Kagarice about some of the ones she's dealt with...) This book can be a diagnostic tool for those folks, as well as an exercise routine for those who have their act together.


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« Reply #56 on: Oct 10, 2007, 09:45AM »

I think I definitely take the more simplified broad view of playing, rather than the technical detailed (which is always good to do now and then.)  I suppose I'll inquire about it during my next lesson  =]
So with this view in mind, is it a good investment? I'll probably buy it anyways, lol.

Jeff
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« Reply #57 on: Oct 10, 2007, 10:02AM »

The book is excellent quality, printed on nice, thick paper.  It is an excellent addition to the stack of other method books I have.  As a trombone major, you will eventually build a library of books like this that will become a substantial part of your personal knowledge base.

Will it make you a better player and help to fix any problems you may have?
There once was a HS Senior who, while taking a tour of a prospective college campus, asked "How many books are in the library?"  The guide responded "How many do you intend to read?"
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« Reply #58 on: Oct 10, 2007, 07:34PM »

One question:

Where should one place the tongue in the Reinhardt world after placing the embouchure, while   inhaling?  I have a habit of placing it between my teeth, and then moving it a split second prior to the end of the inhale, and the articulation, but I might guess this would be a bad habit.

I'm not quoting myself to be vain (although I am), but rather to ask the above, mundane question again (with important technical correction), it having been lost in the shuffle...
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« Reply #59 on: Oct 10, 2007, 07:42PM »

As you firm your embouchure and place the mouthpiece, put the tip on the gums behind and below your bottom teeth.  Then as you inhale, pull it backward so it's out of the way of the air coming in.
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« Reply #60 on: Oct 17, 2007, 07:00PM »

I have an announcement:

From today forward, only the corrected version of this book is available.

All the numerical metronome markings have been replaced with the standard Italian tempo "suggestions," i.e. Largo, Allegro, Lento, Andante, etc.

There is also a note on the first page of this book (the page with the Pivot Stabilizer) that says:

Note: this drill is very strenuous. Many students skip the Stabilizer at first, adding it weeks or months later as embouchure development permits.

This allows the student to treat the Stabilizer as optional rather than mandatory.

The other corrections (including the many errors that have been mentioned in this thread) have also been made, and the "new, improved" version of this book is available at this website and we've got plenty to go around, now.

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« Reply #61 on: Oct 22, 2007, 08:49AM »

Approximately how long does it take to work through a "day" in this book?
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« Reply #62 on: Oct 22, 2007, 08:51AM »

about 45 minutes, for me.
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« Reply #63 on: Oct 22, 2007, 12:02PM »

I got a copy recently.  Great stuff!

In "The Trio of Daily Calisthenics," the section "The Pencil Trick" contains this sentence:

Quote
Place either end of the pencil and strive to support its weight in as near a forward horizontal position as possible.

Place either end where?  :D

I know it's supposed to go between the lips, but I am unsure how the jaw should be configured for this exercise.  Avoid using the teeth and jaw?  Avoid using the teeth, but it's OK to move the jaw forward?
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« Reply #64 on: Oct 22, 2007, 12:23PM »

Given how explicit the instructions are otherwise, I simply assumed that, as a compression exercise, the point was to hold the pencil with the lips only, and that the jaw placement was immaterial; the jaw gets its workout from the 2nd daily calisthenic exercise.
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« Reply #65 on: Oct 22, 2007, 12:53PM »

It's hard to explain completely how to do the pencil trick effectively, but here are my instructions:

Wet your lips thoroughly.
Put the pencil end (the flat, unsharpened end) against your top front teeth - the front surface of your TOP teeth, not the biting surface. Then grip it with WET lips, as if forming your embouchure but pinching, primarily UP with your bottom lip. But keep your chin down and flat- no bunching. Bunching your chin is cheating, using chin muscles instead of lip muscles. With your lips, try to pull the pencil hard against your top teeth, which will also keep it horizontal.

 Holding it onto the front of your top teeth means the bottom lip has to reach up and do more of the work. Be sure you're not bunching your chin.

 You'll find that, following these instrutions completely, with it wet, it's almost impossible to hold it at all. You're only supposed to TRY, not necessarily be sucessful at first. If it's easy you're probably doing it wrong.
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« Reply #66 on: Oct 22, 2007, 01:04PM »

I'm not sure I'd know if I were bunching my chin or not, should it look just the same as it does at rest?
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« Reply #67 on: Oct 22, 2007, 05:44PM »

Sorry, I thought everybody knew what "bunching the chin" meant.  There are usually three possible states of the chin muscles:  resting position, pointed (pulled down), or bunched (pulled up, looks wrinkled like a peach pit).  For most brass players, a bunched chin is NOT the correct way to play.  It uses the wrong muscles.
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« Reply #68 on: Oct 22, 2007, 06:36PM »

I got a copy recently.  Great stuff!

In "The Trio of Daily Calisthenics," the section "The Pencil Trick" contains this sentence:

Place either end of the pencil and strive to support its weight in as near a forward horizontal position as possible.

Place either end where?  :D

I know it's supposed to go between the lips, but I am unsure how the jaw should be configured for this exercise.  Avoid using the teeth and jaw?  Avoid using the teeth, but it's OK to move the jaw forward?

Wow, I guess the proofreading job never ends!

Here is how that sentence (actually two sentences) reads on my original Reinhardt handout:

Place either end of the pencil against the upper part of the upper teeth. Fold your saturated embouchure around the pencil and strive to support its weight in as near a forward horizontal position as possible.


I can't believe Dave and I both missed that! Thank you so much for pointing that out!!! I will make an errata sheet and send it out right away.

Your check is in the mail.   ;-)
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« Reply #69 on: Oct 26, 2007, 05:32PM »

Here is an error I found in the book. 

on page 2, exercise 2., measure 8, I believe that E should be an Eflat. 


I do realize that is not a very significant mistake, but I figure you would still want to know about it.
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« Reply #70 on: Oct 27, 2007, 06:53AM »

Here is an error I found in the book. 

on page 2, exercise 2., measure 8, I believe that E should be an Eflat. 


I do realize that is not a very significant mistake, but I figure you would still want to know about it.
Actually, it's in the key signature. The flat before the E in the previous measure was a courtesy accidental. Personally, I prefer no courtesy accidentals for this reason, but many people prefer to have them there.

 :)
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« Reply #71 on: Oct 27, 2007, 09:08PM »

Actually, it's in the key signature. The flat before the E in the previous measure was a courtesy accidental. Personally, I prefer no courtesy accidentals for this reason, but many people prefer to have them there.

 :)

Ha.  I guess that shows how attentive to detail I am.
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« Reply #72 on: Oct 28, 2007, 04:29AM »

I hate courtesy accidentals.
When subbing and reading avista in a bad light it very often make you play the wrong note.
Like if the key is Ab major and some stupid copyist "help" with a courtesy "b" for the Eb.
Of course I read it as an sign of canceling the "b"* and play an E.
I usually tip ex away courtesy accidentals in my material.

(*In Swedish "återställnings tecken", what in English?)
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« Reply #73 on: Oct 28, 2007, 05:12AM »

(*In Swedish "återställnings tecken", what in English?)

Do you mean a "natural," Svenne?

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« Reply #74 on: Oct 29, 2007, 02:06AM »

Yes of course! Embarrassed!  :/
Thankyou Walt!
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« Reply #75 on: Nov 05, 2007, 11:39PM »

I've just ordered my copy! Really looking forward to working with it. Thanks for putting a book like this together. AND thanks to folks like DE for your input.

Later,
   Michael
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« Reply #76 on: Nov 06, 2007, 03:39AM »

I'll be doing day six today. So far I'm really liking it simply because it changes from day to day.
Please forgive me if this has been answered already, but I looked and didn't see it...
I'm wondering what the reasoning is for the instruction never to play  right after eating?
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« Reply #77 on: Nov 06, 2007, 07:40AM »

Along those lines sort of...  injury could result from playing with your legs crossed?
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« Reply #78 on: Nov 07, 2007, 08:13AM »

I just ordered a copy and am looking forward to playing through it.
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« Reply #79 on: Nov 07, 2007, 07:00PM »

Quote from: Steve
I'll be doing day six today. So far I'm really liking it simply because it changes from day to day.
Please forgive me if this has been answered already, but I looked and didn't see it...
I'm wondering what the reasoning is for the instruction never to play  right after eating?

He always followed that with: "Practice without concentration is just a little better than no practice at all." I think he was trying to discourage us from practicing at a time when we might get a little groggy or not feel 100% energetic about practicing, but I don't know for sure. He did tell us to always drink two glasses of water before commencing our "daily blowing chores." That has saved me many times . . . get on a gig, and nothing's happening, and remember to drink water, and suddenly everything works again. Hydration is so important for us brass players.

Quote from: jmoore88
Along those lines sort of...  injury could result from playing with your legs crossed?

If we're playing a demanding book and try to do it with our legs crossed . . . well, that's not good posture, for one thing. If we have to bark out a bunch of high F's and long, demanding lines that sail way up there, it seems like common sense that we need to have both feet firmly planted on the floor and sit up straight. Maybe Reinhardt knew of someone who had sustained injuries while playing cross-legged? I don't know, but I do know that he never steered me wrong.
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« Reply #80 on: Nov 07, 2007, 11:48PM »

I've heard that some (mostly older) brass (mostly trumpet) players have been known to sustain minor hernias of the abdomen while playing strenuous material with bad, cross-legged posture.  I once knew an 18 year old kid who got a hernia playing trumpet with a harmon mute, but he had it in far too tightly... and he wasn't very good, to much pressure and no air...  Yeah, RIGHT.
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« Reply #81 on: Nov 08, 2007, 02:14AM »

The hernia issue is very interesting. Now we have a pretty new room for that would fit
further discussions about hernia.
http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,36499.0.html
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« Reply #82 on: Nov 11, 2007, 07:20PM »

Hey,

A couple of quick questions here. With the daily calisthenics, would you recommend the jaw exercise for people with TMJ (slight to moderate). Also, there's mention of no vibrato in the routines AND to use only slide vibrato, not lip. One of my students had a lesson with a top LA (classical player) who told him never to use slide vibrato. Lastly, does one just start right up on the "Day," (or the "Pivot") no long tones or nothing first? Some of this stuff goes high up in the horn early on. I haven't started yet. This looks very intriguing. I plan to start tomorrow as I hurt my jaw this weekend.  >:(

THANKS!
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« Reply #83 on: Nov 11, 2007, 08:56PM »

With the daily calisthenics, would you recommend the jaw exercise for people with TMJ (slight to moderate).
I would apply Reinhardt's infamous "hands off     policy" here.

Quote
One of my students had a lesson with a top LA (classical player) who told him never to use slide vibrato.
When I was finishing high school and taking college auditions, at one school the teacher told me exactly that at my audition.  I chose not to go there, despite their offer of a full 4 year scholarship.  I still think I made the right decision.

Quote
Lastly, does one just start right up on the "Day," (or the "Pivot") no long tones or nothing first? Some of this stuff goes high up in the horn early on. I haven't started yet. This looks very intriguing. I plan to start tomorrow as I hurt my jaw this weekend.  >:(
Go back and read the earlier parts of this thread... or maybe I'm thinking of a different discussion.  I would say "it depends."
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« Reply #84 on: Nov 13, 2007, 11:17PM »

Thanks Doug. "Day 1"~ Good stuff. Something different everyday...pretty cool.

Ain't playing trombone great? Love it.

Later,
   Michael
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« Reply #85 on: Nov 20, 2007, 11:23PM »

It's hard to explain completely how to do the pencil trick effectively, but here are my instructions:

Wet your lips thoroughly.
Put the pencil end (the flat, unsharpened end) against your top front teeth - the front surface of your TOP teeth, not the biting surface. Then grip it with WET lips, as if forming your embouchure but pinching, primarily UP with your bottom lip. But keep your chin down and flat- no bunching. Bunching your chin is cheating, using chin muscles instead of lip muscles. With your lips, try to pull the pencil hard against your top teeth, which will also keep it horizontal.

 Holding it onto the front of your top teeth means the bottom lip has to reach up and do more of the work. Be sure you're not bunching your chin.

 You'll find that, following these instrutions completely, with it wet, it's almost impossible to hold it at all. You're only supposed to TRY, not necessarily be sucessful at first. If it's easy you're probably doing it wrong.

Okay Doug, now I know what bunching the chin means, too! At first I was doing it. Now I'm trying to "point it" (flat), like while playing. Got it. I would assume the jaw is forward, like while playing. Any gap in the teeth? I've been putting my front teeth together so that I'm not using my jaw (w/bottom lip slightly over teeth) to hold the pencil. Am I making sense?

Thanks,
   Michael
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« Reply #86 on: Nov 20, 2007, 11:41PM »

Yes, it sounds like you know what to do now.
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« Reply #87 on: Dec 12, 2007, 10:15PM »

Hello all,

Hope you're benefiting from the routines. I had PMed Rich with a few questions. He thought that maybe some of you might have similar questions. So, I'll quote it here:

Hey, Michael,

I'll put your questions in first, and my answers below:


On heavy playing days, I may do Remmington warm ups instead of Reinhardt. What do you recommend?

Turn to the Warmup #57 pages, and do those until you feel good and stop. They are excellent in and of themselves.


I started The Pivot Stabilizer on my second cycle. It kicks my butt. This seems strenuous for first thing in the day. With the larger intervals, are we to pop it up without catching any of the tones (partials) in between? How long would you recommend holding the fermata the first time around? The one that goes to high Bb, I start in 6th position (F, F, F) and work my way up the slide. What do you think?

Personally, I think it's okay if you hit *all* the partials in between, just make sure that during the whole thing you have kept the weight on the lower lip and don't let go. The fermata is just an extra couple beats or so, not going for the Guinness book of World Records. Don't forget, the last couple of those are optional, and if you have some trouble getting up to the Bb, maybe your approach is good for the time being.


Okay, with The Pencil Trick; chops, jaw and teeth all in playing position? Teeth parted? I get the "don't bunch the chin." Should I avoid th Calisthenics before playing a rehearsal or gig?

Yes, teeth parted to simulate playing. The key to success with the calisthenics is to not overdo, but make sure to consistently do them. On days of gigs or rehearsals, you sorta have to find the right balance. Maybe just "touch upon" them on those days.


I did start to see nice improvement into the 2nd cycle. BUT seem to be in a little slump the past couple of days (Day 11 tomorrow). I wonder if just a day on soft longs tones is in order. Most often I have little time to do anything but "the day."

Don't overlook Warmup #57. That is a great alternative to any of the "Days."


I am currently reading the Intro to D.S.R's Pivot System article...Very interesting but mind numbing <smile>. Is there a Doug Elliott or a Rich Willey, Reinhardt-type teacher you could recommend in the L.A., CA area (I'm an hour north)?

I don't know anybody around there, sorry. Dave Sheetz would know: "Dave Sheetz" <dsheetz@ne.rr.com>
===================

Hope this helps. It's okay to post your questions, too. Others may be helped by seeing them and the answers that someone like Doug will give.

Keep us posted!

Rich


Thanks Rich, this helps. Hope it helps others as well.

Later,
   Michael
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« Reply #88 on: Dec 14, 2007, 05:38AM »

Question to the group.
I have completed the 3rd cycle and really see a difference in control developing.

Here are a couple question.  I am an active doubler right now on bass.  On "tenor days" where I am predominatley working tenor, I use the Reinhardt.  On days I am primarily working bass, I use days 2 and 3 of the Teele embouchure studies.

Does this make sense?

Is there a natural extension of the Reinhardt routines into the trigger and pedal register also?  It appears the Reinhardt and Teele routines all have the same general goal - minimize shifting and develop a "one embouchure" playing style.

Am I off base here?  I would appreciate any feedback.

Thanks
JR
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« Reply #89 on: Dec 14, 2007, 08:26AM »

Reinhardt didn't talk or write much about his thoughts on bass trombone.  I know he taught some bass trombonists, though.  I have my own ideas about how to apply his principles to bass... even though I don't play bass trombone, myself.

I don't know the Teele stuff, so I won't comment except to say that it sounds like his ideas are generally compatible.

Keep in mind that none of this takes into account the most important aspect of Reinhardt's teaching, which was the embouchure types.  You have to get that from a teacher who understands it, not from exercises.

I would play the Reinhardt Routines on bass as they are written (maybe an abbreviated version where you only play part of each exercise), then down an octave.  Use the printed instructions, trying to tie the octaves together, the goal being to not shift.

Bass trombone range needs to include the entire tenor range PLUS an octave or two down.  Feel free to make up your own versions of each exercise, that will serve that purpose.
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« Reply #90 on: Dec 14, 2007, 09:13AM »

Reinhardt didn't talk or write much about his thoughts on bass trombone.  I know he taught some bass trombonists, though.  I have my own ideas about how to apply his principles to bass... even though I don't play bass trombone, myself.

I don't know the Teele stuff, so I won't comment except to say that it sounds like his ideas are generally compatible.

Keep in mind that none of this takes into account the most important aspect of Reinhardt's teaching, which was the embouchure types.  You have to get that from a teacher who understands it, not from exercises.

I would play the Reinhardt Routines on bass as they are written (maybe an abbreviated version where you only play part of each exercise), then down an octave.  Use the printed instructions, trying to tie the octaves together, the goal being to not shift.

Bass trombone range needs to include the entire tenor range PLUS an octave or two down.  Feel free to make up your own versions of each exercise, that will serve that purpose.


Doug, I have a folder of Reinhardt bass trombone assignments he gave to a bass trombone student of his.  It is basically just what you said.  Many of the routines are the same he would give to tenor students (including compression drills) as well as some things modified to be done in the low bass trombone range like low chromatic fourths, slide dexterity in the low register, low interval studies, etc.

So, if you are looking to follow the Reinhardt routines on bass trombone, I would recommend doing the routines on bass as written (maybe in a condensed fashion if you are short on time) and then expand whatever particular exercises you are playing into the low trigger and bass range.  Let us know how it goes!

Rich
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« Reply #91 on: Dec 24, 2007, 05:19AM »

Follow up to my previous post on extending the exercises to the bass trombone and a question.

Here is how I have approached it and it seems to work pretty well (at least for my brief 2 week experience!).  Basically, I have approached using the exercises for bass trombone by extending the exercises into the Valve "air chamber" (book's terminology) and added exercises in that air chamber to each of the days in the same style as the other exercises in that day. By thinking of this in the "air chamber" view of the world, it is very consistent with the day's work and really emphasizes the "no shift" approach.  In addition, I have extended some of the exercises that go from the 2nd partial up and down to add the valve note as the low point of the exercise. That seems to work better then thinking about going down an octave with the exercises. I have a single valve 72H and keep the attachment tuned to E so I can extend down to b-natural in flat 7th throughout the exercises.  I will say, it is much more a challenge to the breath control to add the valve chamber to the work!

What I really find helpful is the very soft playing in the valve notes along with the dynamic shifts in and out of the register.  Continuing to experiment - not yet extending anything into the pedal register.  Next time through the cycle, I may go down to the natural pedal air chamber and add it in selectively.  One thing about it is adding the additional "air chambers" certainly extends the time to get through the routines because I do think it is important to exercise the upper register also and not skip that part because I am extending it lower - oh well - continuing to learn.  One thing I might do is not go through all 7 positions to keep the time closer to the same by shortening some of the exercises from seven to four repetitions only alternating 1-3-5-7 and 1-2-4-6. I believe this was mentioned in a previous post.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I also use the Phil Teele's embouchure studies (about 3 days a week when focusing on bass trombone (vs. tenor)) and this is a nice contrast but the "no shift" goal of both seem to be very consistent and complimentary (IMHO).

QUESTION
What is the thought on the forum about the importance of the set, place, breath preparation drill?  It is very interesting and it seems to bring a whole different approach to the horn at least for me.  Does the majority of people embrace this part of the teaching?  This seems to be in direct contrast to the "full open throat breathing" taught in many other circles which I would classify as more a breath, place, set routine.

THANKS
MERRY XMAS ALL

JR
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« Reply #92 on: Dec 24, 2007, 11:55AM »

I hope this will work for me for a while. I went ahead and ordered it with the jazz studies in bass clef book. If I have trouble with it, I can work on #57 for a while and get help from my instructor.

Thanks!


Does anyone have any recommendations for double tonguing? I try and try and try and I feel like maybe I'm double-tonguing-deficient. Occasionally I can single tongue really fast. I'm so inconsistent. I wish I could double tongue and triple tongue really well... *sigh*  Confused
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« Reply #93 on: Dec 25, 2007, 05:15AM »

Does anyone have any recommendations for double tonguing? I try and try and try and I feel like maybe I'm double-tonguing-deficient. Occasionally I can single tongue really fast. I'm so inconsistent. I wish I could double tongue and triple tongue really well... *sigh*  Confused

As in all things trombone, slow it down and work on consistency and accuracy. Isolate your syllables. Speed comes later.
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« Reply #94 on: Dec 25, 2007, 05:17AM »

I've been able to figure out the purpose behind most of the exercise in this book. But what is the elasticity routine for?
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« Reply #95 on: Dec 25, 2007, 08:04AM »

My description of the Elasticity Routine is "telling the horn what to do intead of letting it tell you."  It involves bending the pitch UP and down between harmonics.  It is a strength exercise, controlling the pitch by your own effort regardless of where the horn's resonance wants it to be.  When you can play a good solid middle C in first position, that's control.

If you're one of those people who thinks that all pratice should be devoted to music and producing a great sound, you won't enjoy it and you won't understand the benefit to such an exercise.
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« Reply #96 on: Dec 25, 2007, 09:00AM »

Ah, okay. Thanks, Doug; that would have been my first guess, but the routine's focus primarily in the mid to upper register made me wonder if something else was going on. Most pitch bending exercises to this effect that I've seen have focused on the lower register.

Am I correct to assume that I'd do this exercise with a normal mouthpiece seal? I know that I can bend the pitch just about any way I want with about a "half seal," and then as I make the seal more complete, pitches slot into their partials more strongly, and I find it extremely difficult to bend the pitch upward more than about a half step, or downward more than about halfway down to the next partial, with a full seal.
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« Reply #97 on: Dec 25, 2007, 11:22AM »

Normal mouthpiece pressure.  Yes, it's very difficult.  Go from one full sounding harmonic to the next full sounding harmonic, making as full sound in between as possible, no backing off.  It IS possible, with work.
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« Reply #98 on: Dec 26, 2007, 02:33AM »

Okay; thanks, Doug.
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« Reply #99 on: Jan 01, 2008, 11:38AM »

I got an email from Mike Bowlus, and I've tried replying twice and it bounced both times. If you're here, please send me a PM so that I can reply to you regarding the Reinhardt Routines for trombone.

Sorry for the interruption . . . carry on.
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« Reply #100 on: Jan 04, 2008, 04:54PM »

I got mine in the other day... It's going to be a lot of work, for sure.

page 29 looks so overwhelming... double and triple tonguing has not really come to me yet. The forms on this page look like they're meant to be applied over time.

I've tried the warm up #57 but I have some trouble during the middle section, I'm not crescendoing enough and by the time I think I got it, 3rd measure tells me to back way off... then when I get to the last bar I'm out of air.

On the bottom section, I'm having trouble with the different technique for measure 1 slurred and 2 legato tongued. I tend to slow down the 2nd measure and try to get some separation. the 3rd measure I have a hard time getting the accents at pianissimo. My pedal notes change! And it's scary how much air I leak (less with 6.5al, more with 11c).

Any advice? Besides lessons... those start soon.
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« Reply #101 on: Apr 06, 2008, 07:11PM »

I got mine in the other day... It's going to be a lot of work, for sure.

page 29 looks so overwhelming... double and triple tonguing has not really come to me yet. The forms on this page look like they're meant to be applied over time.

I've tried the warm up #57 but I have some trouble during the middle section, I'm not crescendoing enough and by the time I think I got it, 3rd measure tells me to back way off... then when I get to the last bar I'm out of air.

On the bottom section, I'm having trouble with the different technique for measure 1 slurred and 2 legato tongued. I tend to slow down the 2nd measure and try to get some separation. the 3rd measure I have a hard time getting the accents at pianissimo. My pedal notes change! And it's scary how much air I leak (less with 6.5al, more with 11c).

Any advice? Besides lessons... those start soon.

Wow, it's been a long time since I checked in, here . . . it looked like Doug had things under control so I was laying low. Lots of great questions and lots of great answers.

I suspect that many of you have persisted with The Reinhardt Routines and are still making progress . . . slow but steady progress is the best kind, in my opinion.

These routines are the kind that you don't sit down in one practice session and perfect every single nuance. Over a period of time, rotating through the 11 Day plan to the best of your ability each day, you will no doubt make progress. The idea of a practice journal, and even recording yourself practicing will show you things you might otherwise forget. Getting discouraged is unnecessary; persistence pays off.

My wife found this review by Dave Sherman that I wanted to share with you. Dave states that this book is the "most usable of the Reinhardt material published to date" and I believe he's referring to an actual "method book" that you can put on your stand and chip away at over a period of time.

I don't know if any of you have noticed this phenomenon, but I've noticed that when I'm actually practicing out of this book, it's really hard for me to sound and feel as good as I think I ought to be able to, but I persist anyway (sometimes I just plain suck!). Later in my playing day, after a good hour or so rest and it's time to work on other stuff, I'm always amazed by how great it feels to play, and most of the time I sound much more like I think I ought to be sounding.

Just offering some words of hope and encouragement for those of you trudging along with me!
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« Reply #102 on: Apr 06, 2008, 09:23PM »

I feel this book is one of the most amazing things that have happened to me and my trombone! Every aspect of my playing is improving, including, (FINALLY!)my range. YEAH! I think the Pivot Stabilizer is very important. A great book. Thank you so much!

Michael
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Andrew Meronek

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« Reply #103 on: Apr 07, 2008, 09:43AM »



I don't know if any of you have noticed this phenomenon, but I've noticed that when I'm actually practicing out of this book, it's really hard for me to sound and feel as good as I think I ought to be able to, but I persist anyway (sometimes I just plain suck!). Later in my playing day, after a good hour or so rest and it's time to work on other stuff, I'm always amazed by how great it feels to play, and most of the time I sound much more like I think I ought to be sounding.

Actually, I've noticed this as well. I figure that it's a symptom of both muscular and mental fatigue. The stuff can get pretty repetitive, after all. But I look at it as a way to increase my ability to focus on the exercise for long periods of time - that's a form of meditation. Aside from the physical benefits of those exercises, I like that mental benefit as well.
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cb56

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« Reply #104 on: Nov 04, 2011, 02:10PM »

Old thread I know, but I have a quick question.
Day 1 exercise 1, there are two whole notes, a two measure rest with a cross symbol over it, and two more whole notes with a fermata.
The notes say don't breath or raise mouthpiece pressure during rests but do I get to breath before the last two whole notes w/fermata? Or do I play all the way through to the fermata in one breath?
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Doug Elliott
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« Reply #105 on: Nov 04, 2011, 02:50PM »

The way I tell students to play that sort of exercise is to pretend it is all one long phrase; all one breath, and during the rest YOU ARE STILL PLAYING.  It helps to even continue blowing very lightly during the rest, and keep your normal mouthpiece pressure on, so EVERYTHING is as if you are still playing.  Then just add more air to start the next note.

This is an extremely valuable exercise if you do it right... and set your embouchure with the lips firm and touching before you start.
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Andrew Meronek

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« Reply #106 on: Nov 04, 2011, 03:03PM »

This is an extremely valuable exercise if you do it right... and set your embouchure with the lips firm and touching before you start.

Yes, I'd say that done properly, this can be the most physically brutal exercise in the whole book, due to the potential for working breathing and relaxation in this exercise.

cb56, if you can't get through the whole phrase in one breath, simply adjust the metronone to a place where you can finish it. As you progress, you'll get more relaxed, and you'll become more able to play quieter, thus you'll be able to slow it down.
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cb56

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« Reply #107 on: Nov 04, 2011, 03:14PM »

Thanks to both of you. I'm excited about using this book and seeing the improvement over time.
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Flakey
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« Reply #108 on: Nov 05, 2011, 05:01AM »

Just wanted to add my two penny worth. I had some Skye Lessons with Rich Willey two, maybe three years ago. Good grief! Time flies! It was the best $100 a lesson I ever spent. Rich got me "typed" chopswise, then worked through the exercises with me, painstakingly making sure I was doing them exactly right, in order to ensure I got the maximum benefit from each exercise. The work I did on the studies increased my range, changed my sound for the better and gave me much more security and confidence in the upper register.

My advice for what it's worth, if your serious about playing, is get a couple of Skype lessons from Richard or Dave Wilken or David Sheetz or Doug, to make sure you get the maximum benefit from the material. I can happily endorse the method, the exercises and Rich's teaching.   
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