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Poll
Question: Can anyone play the trombone as well as Frank Rosolino?
yes - 85 (69.7%)
yes, but only because Frank Rosolino is no longer with us - 11 (9%)
no - 26 (21.3%)
Total Voters: 116

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Author Topic: Rosolino vs the rest  (Read 40631 times)
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SensitiveJohn
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« on: Sep 19, 2007, 07:30PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln_ksnzscT8
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« Reply #1 on: Sep 19, 2007, 07:43PM »

I present this newly-posted video of Frank as evidence. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klg3SoMvm5A
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« Reply #2 on: Sep 19, 2007, 07:47PM »

I didn't vote.  I'd check a box that says he was one of a kind.  There aren't any other trombonists I'd compare him with.  His approach was entirely different.
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« Reply #3 on: Sep 19, 2007, 07:53PM »

I present this newly-posted video of Frank as evidence. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klg3SoMvm5A
That was excellent, but it wasn't "Wave".  (The title said it was "Wave".  It was Corcovado aka Quiet Nights of Quiet Stars.)

That breakdown chorus was amazing, how they walked the changes right throughout and the whole ensemble came out the other end right on time.  Really brilliant.

It takes some real guts to trade choruses with Rosolino.
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« Reply #4 on: Oct 24, 2007, 02:08PM »

Frank was Frank and nobody else will ever be Frank.They mave have been influenced by him, that's it....
I think
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« Reply #5 on: Oct 25, 2007, 09:42AM »

So if 8 of you think that somebody is out there playing the trombone as well as Frank did, then tell us who it is.
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« Reply #6 on: Oct 26, 2007, 07:43AM »

So if 8 of you think that somebody is out there playing the trombone as well as Frank did, then tell us who it is.

Give me a break.

I got 8 right HERE!!!

Jack Teagarden

Lawrence Brown

Trummy Young

Tommy Dorsey

J. J. Johnson

Curtis Fuller

Urbie Green

Jimmy Knepper

And that's just scratching the SURFACE!!!

C'mon, man.

Rosolino was a great player.

But there have been...and are...SO many more.

And y'know what?

Many of them them cut him to SHREDS in terms of not using trombone licks...especially those damned turns...to mess up the contours of their melodic statements. That turn thing was like a tic of some kind.

You want to talk "technique"?

I played with three fairly young players this week...Vincent Gardner, Chris Crenshaw and Andre Hayward...who can play things on the horn that Rosolino never DREAMED of.

Bet on it.

This is not to take anything away from Frank. Not really. We all have our weaknesses. But to put ANYBODY up as "the greatest ever"? Ridiculous on the face of it.

Really.

S.

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« Reply #7 on: Oct 26, 2007, 08:12AM »

There is simply no "one" best at anything. Be it pitching baseballs or playing trombone.

At some point in time you're splitting hairs over the differences which in my mind is a waste of time.

But no one stands far and above everyone else generically in a skill that encompasses any sort of complexity.

An artist may be better than many others in certain areas but he will be deficient in some other skill that another will exceed him in.

A perfect artist would require a perfect person under the hood, ain't seen many around myself.......
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« Reply #8 on: Oct 26, 2007, 12:14PM »

No one played the way Frank did better than Frank.  Lots of people play way out on the edge of possibility better than anyone else who plays like them.  I think this is called personality.  Lots of personalities, lots of best players.  Those of us who play like others, well, we're not the best, and there are lots more of us than them!
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« Reply #9 on: Oct 26, 2007, 02:52PM »

Give me a break.

I got 8 right HERE!!!

Jack Teagarden

Lawrence Brown

Trummy Young

Tommy Dorsey

J. J. Johnson

Curtis Fuller

Urbie Green

Jimmy Knepper




Ah, but can these guys incorporate yodeling into their scat singing? Well?
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« Reply #10 on: Oct 31, 2007, 05:11AM »

Quote
That turn thing was like a tic of some kind.

That's an interesting take on it. Could it be that that "tic" was related to the same personality disorder that ended his life?
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« Reply #11 on: Oct 31, 2007, 06:34AM »

That's an interesting take on it. Could it be that that "tic" was related to the same personality disorder that ended his life?

Who knows?

It always made me kinda nervous to hear it, that's for sure. Really. The reason that I so prefer the styles of people like Teagarden, Dorsey, Trummy Young, Urbie, J.J. and Jimmy Knepper to those of say Rosolino and Fontana is because of the relatively uninterrupted elegance and cleanliness of the former's lines. Even when they DID play embellishments, it was somehow integral to the melody and unexpected rather than a repeated interjection like someone saying "Y'know what I mean?" 20 times a sentence.

This is a pet peeve of mine with so many really accomplished trombonists. Like they feel somehow inferior and have to put all kinds of store bought window dressing and bows and ribbons on their melody. Give me Miles Davis or Perry Como any day. Just sing the damned thing.

When I hear that hiccup thing, I just turn off. Always have. I do not care HOW difficult it is. It's still a hiccup.

Later...

S.
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« Reply #12 on: Oct 31, 2007, 08:00AM »

Rosolino had a rare ability to break a groove down on trombone
part of that had to do with his fluidity, energy & solid time
The other part of it was that he used the trombone so dynamically
the horn becomes more of a percussion instrument this way.

He'd play quietly and pick funky, effective spots to open up in the top register
And he used those embellishments in the same way a drummer might stroke the snare, or the way a pianist might kick with the left hand.

I find it interesting when guys can tease this kind of a pseudo-polyphonic concept out of the instrument, using rhythm and combinations of sounds.


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« Reply #13 on: Oct 31, 2007, 12:42PM »


Doggone it, the second clip was taken down before I could view it.

Rosolino definitely had his mannerisms, but he was getting the sound out of the horn that he wanted. The same staccato triplet that he plays all the time is present in his singing, too, so it's not just some physical trombone thing.

As Josh said, it adds a funky rhythmic element that's almost like drumming or tap dancing. A lot of Hammond B-3 players use similar rhythmic effects. I could see why some people would like it and others find it distracting.

Teagarden had his 'trombonisms', too, but I still love his playing. It's probably just the basic tendency to discover something that you like a lot and play it a little too much.
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« Reply #14 on: Oct 31, 2007, 01:19PM »

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Kp4_lmho0PI&amp;rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/Kp4_lmho0PI&amp;rel=1</a>


I love how he creeps under pitch sometimes and teases the center, like dexter...
then there's the balance- he offers a million of diversions, for sure- but then he picks a spot, and the notes just hang and the tune opens up.

None of which would be to discount what Sam's said about understatement and elegance, which was well-put.
but it's rare for a musician to be able to go both ways (which is why I love ben webster..)

I'm interested in the choices musicians make; to me, it seems that Rosolino was really able to "create his own shot," as they say in the hoops world.
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« Reply #15 on: Nov 01, 2007, 03:29AM »

As I've discussed on these boards before (and taken a lot of flack doing it) in my opinion Rosolino's style, while technically very advanced, was one that wore out the listener very quickly. It strikes me as rather manic in a way the Bird's style was not, like someone who is always talking too fast and too long in a nonstop patter that quickly becomes irritating. Both Rosolino and JJ were in their prime about the same time and I infinitely prefer the latter as a trombonist whose work will stand the test of time.

This point of a tic in Rosolino's playing as a symptom of his eventual complete derangement is an interesting one and makes his music even more unlistenable for me. Of course in light of the way he ended it all its my opinion that it would have been far better if Rosolino's two kids would have survived and his music died.
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« Reply #16 on: Nov 01, 2007, 03:43AM »

Let's not get into another discussion about that. Bad dog.  No Biscuits. Please keep this a music topic.
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« Reply #17 on: Nov 01, 2007, 03:46AM »

Just in my own humble opinion, I find his playing, at least on that clip, to be completely lacking in "soul" or "feeling", and also monumentally tedious. What IS the point of playing like that?
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« Reply #18 on: Nov 01, 2007, 04:17AM »

Mr. Rosolino's unfortunate demise seems to be a topic non grata around here, so I'll leave that alone.

I don't think mannerism is a deal-killer, whether you're talking about Willie Nelson or Lawrence Brown. There's a fair analogy in Aaron Neville's vocal style. For some people it's sublime and captivating; for others, it's like listening to someone sing while riding a bicycle along the railroad tracks. I can hear it both ways, but I like it.

Frank's playing has a sly, deadpan, hipster-ish quality that's a lot of fun, and when he's not doing his scat-a-tonic rhythms there's some melancholy and emotional depth. I admire people who can project their personality through an instrument.

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« Reply #19 on: Nov 01, 2007, 06:52AM »

Let's not get into another discussion about that. Bad dog.  No Biscuits. Please keep this a music topic.

The problem with this is that if you censor discussion after someone has made a controversial point, that point winds up hanging in the air unquestioned. I'm sorry, but that bothers me.

Apart from a general discussion of Rosolino's demise, it is possible to discuss the question of whether reflections of the worst of a person's psyche can be seen in their best times, and I'm open to another thread on this if Bonecall is up for it. Quite frankly, I hope not because I think the entire topic is fraught with misguided thinking. I've seen truly silly things written in this vein, the worst of which was an analysis of Emily Dickinson's poetry from the perspective of a handwriting analyst who felt that her unclosed "o"s were a symptom of the kidney disease that would eventually take her life. I certainly wouldn't want people to think that my playing outside the changes is a symptom of my depression. When I'm depressed, I don't play well. When I'm playing my best, I'm not depressed. The two don't coincide.

When you start looking for symptoms of a person's personal life in the technical aspects of their playing, you open yourself up to a world of overgeneralization and speculation. Do you hear "Blackness" in Jimi Hendrix's guitar solos? Do the later offerings of the Beatles still stink of Liverpool? Of course if you go looking for it, you'll think you have found it. That doesn't mean it's there.

Oh, and let me add this: Damn you, Sabutin! I had never even thought about those turns, and now I hear them in every Rosolino solo and I agree with you--they're quite "trombonish" and they certainly don't add to the musical statement of the solo. I would add, though, that turns and any other way of manipulating partials (like playing against the grain) are one of the best ways to get fast articulations out of a trombone, and Rosolino seems to have been one of the pioneers of this technique. You'd know better than I. I'm wondering if the turns were "trombonish" before Rosolino made them so. There will come a time when multiphonics are seen as a low brass cliche, but at least for right now, they seem to stretch the horizons of the instrument. Only time will tell.
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« Reply #20 on: Nov 01, 2007, 07:08AM »


---snip---

I'm interested in the choices musicians make; to me, it seems that Rosolino was really able to "create his own shot," as they say in the hoops world.

Really, Josh...we do not HAVE any choices. We are who we are. Sperm meets egg; genes do their work et...voilá!!!

Rosolino.

Josh.

Sam.

And everybody else.

It is true that Frank was a total original. He had no choice in the matter. But "originality" is not necessarily a recommendation. It is of course necessary to be "original" to be a great artist, but originality in and of itself does not MAKE an artist great.

More is needed.

Frank? He was missing something important. Certainly not sheer musical talent. The OTHER thing. Whatever the hell that is. Like the judge said about pornography."I cannot define it,...but I know it when I see it."

Yup.

No blame, no foul. Just the facts of the matter in my view.

Do not try this at home.

Results may vary.

Later...

S.
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« Reply #21 on: Nov 01, 2007, 07:13AM »

Just in my own humble opinion, I find his playing, at least on that clip, to be completely lacking in "soul" or "feeling", and also monumentally tedious. What IS the point of playing like that?

I appreciate the extreme level of technical proficiency and grasp of harmony he had, and enjoy listening to his solos... watching him play in the above clip struck me as odd, and I hadn't really thought about why until you said this, Mama- his eyes look blank. I can't tell if he's extremely focused, or extremely bored. I often close my eyes when I solo, so I can focus on my own 'inner soundtrack', if you will, and that may be what he's doing, just with his eyes open.
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« Reply #22 on: Nov 01, 2007, 07:16AM »

---snip---

Oh, and let me add this: Damn you, Sabutin! I had never even thought about those turns, and now I hear them in every Rosolino solo---snip---

Sorry...

They have bothered me since I was 15.

Really.

Quote
and I agree with you--they're quite "trombonish" and they certainly don't add to the musical statement of the solo. I would add, though, that turns and any other way of manipulating partials (like playing against the grain) are one of the best ways to get fast articulations out of a trombone, and Rosolino seems to have been one of the pioneers of this technique. You'd know better than I. I'm wondering if the turns were "trombonish" before Rosolino made them so.

Bill Harris

Jimmy Harrison

Dicky Wells

Jack Jenney

Lawrence Brown

Middle-era Trummy Young

Lots of others.

They all used them.

Rosolino just took it to a whole 'nother level.

Quote
There will come a time when multiphonics are seen as a low brass cliche, but at least for right now, they seem to stretch the horizons of the instrument. Only time will tell.

Actually...I doubt that they will EVER become truly popular on trombone.

Too ugly.

Too limiting, too.

Now on tuba...!!!

THERE'S where they actually sound good.

S.
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« Reply #23 on: Nov 01, 2007, 11:28AM »

"Here's that Rainy Day"
Bobby Knights Great American Trombone Company.

NUFF SAID........ Clever
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« Reply #24 on: Nov 01, 2007, 11:41AM »

"Here's that Rainy Day"
Bobby Knights Great American Trombone Company.

NUFF SAID........ Clever

I'm not sure that's nuff said, because I, for one, don't know what you're talking about.

However, that blank face of Rosolino really made me feel chilly. That was not a man enjoying what he was playing. IMO.
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« Reply #25 on: Nov 01, 2007, 11:48AM »

I'm not sure about the blank stare thing. He sounds like he's enjoying himself. I know a lot of people who sort of space out when they improvise, including myself. A lot of guitarists or piano players inadvertently stare, or sing along, or make faces while they play.

He had the blank stare while he was singing, too. Maybe it's just his 'cool' persona.
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« Reply #26 on: Nov 01, 2007, 11:52AM »

Quote
I admire people who can project their personality through an instrument.

Me too. But unfortunately in Mr Rosolino's case IMHO the personality projected was rather one dimensional and a bit manic.

Not that he wasn't one hell of a trombone player.
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« Reply #27 on: Nov 01, 2007, 01:47PM »

Everyone's entitled to their own opinions of course!!!

However it is MY opinion that anyone not finding musicality, soul, happiness, joy, sadness, music and chops in Franks playing have either........
 a) Not heard much or......
 b) Are "no-listening MF's."
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« Reply #28 on: Nov 01, 2007, 02:45PM »

I do hear the soul in Frank's playing. On a pop song done by Quincy Jones, Everything Must Change, Frank plays a short but one of the most soulful trombone solos that I have ever heard!

I also see no need for us to prohibit a discussion of the circumstances of Frank's death....just one black man man's opinion and that still ain't worth a **** in today's world!
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« Reply #29 on: Nov 01, 2007, 02:59PM »

No way of knowing, but, the so called blank face is probably concentration. Everyone is different when it comes to that sort of thing. Eyes closed, not closed, who gives a rat's puh-too-tee.

Opinions yes, but lacking in soul or feeling?  Wow! What's the point in playing like that? Wow again. Howse 'bout the fact that he swings his ever lovin' bee-hind off for starters.

My opinion only, but if you aint moved by Frank's playing then perhaps you're dead, aint listenin', stubborn, square, or perhaps do not have enough of a musical mind/heart to grasp it.

Yes, there are many trombone players on the scene today that have taken quantum leaps with their "****", but very few if any of 'em are SWINGIN"! And in my book if it aint swingin' it aint happenin'!

I could easily be saying the above about any number of great players from the past, btw.
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« Reply #30 on: Nov 01, 2007, 03:03PM »

Zemry, I'm a bit confused by your last statement. Cuz your opinion matters to me.
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« Reply #31 on: Nov 01, 2007, 03:31PM »

Zemry, I'm a bit confused by your last statement. Cuz your opinion matters to me.

Just a bad day and lettin it out! I'm okay now! :D
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« Reply #32 on: Nov 01, 2007, 04:16PM »

If we're gonna start judging guys by how they look while they're playing (on a television set, no less)it's gonna be a looong conversation.
Rosolino's playing, "look", feel, choice of notes all convey a sense of controlled mastery and a huge store of humor and energy, IMO.   
He's capable of making me crack up and I generally feel better after listening to him.
he swings pretty hard, in my book..

Does his playing convey his dark side?  Absolutely, and why not?
It's art, it's supposed to convey your polar extremes, we all have them. 
Honest Jazz is deep music.   For me, real playing is all about dealing with the Shadows- nether zones and ideals. 
We could talk about Billie Holiday's dark side, Miles's, Coltrane's, Beethoven's. 
I know I'm not in a position to judge- I have no idea what choices might unfold in someone else's day-to-day.  people are brutal.  I'm just glad there are a few areas in life where you can express what's really happening.

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« Reply #33 on: Nov 01, 2007, 04:21PM »

Amen to that, Josh.
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« Reply #34 on: Nov 01, 2007, 04:26PM »

If we're gonna start judging guys by how they look while they're playing (on a television set, no less)it's gonna be a looong conversation.
Rosolino's playing, "look", feel, choice of notes all convey a sense of controlled mastery and a huge store of humor and energy, IMO. 

Yes, indeed. I hope how we look when playing doesn't become a standard.  Don't know
We aren't opera singers. I've seen all kinds of looks out of 'bonists, but can't relate them to what comes out of the horn.
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« Reply #35 on: Nov 01, 2007, 04:56PM »

Frank Rosolino sounded like Frank Rosolino. He's instantly recognizable, and that's why he lives now with Bird and Trane and Ben and all the other angelheaded hipsters for us.

We want to sound like ourselves, don't we? Otherwise, what's the point, really?

Ros did that, and that's what I hear when I listen to him.

It's not the notes he played; it's the music he made.

He gave me the shortest lesson I ever had, a long time ago, obviously. All he really said was this:

"You already know how to play; just play!"

Just play.



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« Reply #36 on: Nov 01, 2007, 09:06PM »

A lot of what Billie Holiday and Louis Armstrong did could be viewed as mannerisms and licks, and probably rightly so. What the hell, same with Art Tatum and Jimmy Smith and Jimi Hendrix. For all I know, they might have also had a blank stare part of the time.

We're on the verge of consigning trombonists to a little corner where playing joyfully doesn't merit any respect.
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« Reply #37 on: Nov 02, 2007, 01:56AM »

I didn't mean to start a side-issue about looks! One of the best trumpet players I know plays with his eyes partially closed and turned up, so that all you can see are the whites. Creepy, but it doesn't stop me enjoying the music he produces.

I've listened to Rosolino with my eyes closed, but, despite being able to appreciate his mastery of the instrument, as Sam said there seems to be something lacking. I called it "soul and feeling", but maybe I was incorrect in my phraseology. What he produces just doesn't float my particular boat. Sorry.
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« Reply #38 on: Nov 02, 2007, 04:34AM »

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I also see no need for us to prohibit a discussion of the circumstances of Frank's death

Indeed.

The sum total of an artists work is absolutely influenced by how he lived his life. 

You can't separate the man from his music.

They're one and the same.
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« Reply #39 on: Nov 02, 2007, 06:48AM »


The sum total of an artists work is absolutely influenced by how he lived his life. 


Yes. Not how he ended his life, but how he lived his life. I don't hear airplane crashes in Lynyrd Skynyrd, I don't read suicide in Hemingway, and I don't hear evidence of Rosolino's demise in his music. Art is not a person's inner demons vomited up for our consumption. For many artists, the art produced is a negation of those personal demons rather than an indulgence of them. What I hear in Rosolino's music is phenomenal control and precision. It's anything but out of control.

If your theory connecting the sound of a person's improvisation with their mental state is correct, then we should start a program of "improvisation profiling" wherein we decide whether a person's solos show them to be a danger to society. John Popper should be put away for the rest of his life. He collects guns, and he produces some of the most manic-sounding harmonica solos I've ever heard. Isn't it a foregone conclusion that he's going to kill somebody?

Do you really think you can listen to any living artist's solos and decide what's wrong with their brains based on their musical statements? I'm sorry, but that sounds like a bunch of crap to me.
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« Reply #40 on: Nov 02, 2007, 07:17AM »


Re. the blank look. I rather like that - to me it says that all his mental energy is going into his music and not being wasted on facial animation. I think it may also be a side-effect of his technical mastery - he doesn't have to struggle to get the instrument to do what he wants it to do. Wish I was like that. I probably have a look of sheer terror when I'm improvising. I dunno. I can see why the turns 'n stuff may be not to everyone's taste but I do find him a fascinating artist.

I know a young cornet player who has a similar look when she plays - she only moves the first 3 fingers of her right hand and I really admire that spare, economical, relaxed style. And what a fabulous sound she makes. I much prefer that to the archetypal violin soloists who look like they're experiencing physical pain.

- Stephen.
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« Reply #41 on: Nov 02, 2007, 07:33AM »

WOW!!! Talk about some crazy s***.you folks have really gone off the deep end with this one.For the record I am a HUGE Rosolino fan,and I voted yes there are trombone players out there who play as well or better.I probably have more recordings of him than most.For someone,anyone to insinuate that Frank played without emotion is so much more than absurd that I won't even begin to address it.Sometimes I think we get to caught up in the who's the best at this ,that,or the other thing instead of focusing in on,embracing the differences in all each and every one of us' performing.
Rosolino was a truly gifted trombonist/musician who's personalityDID come through in his playing.Manic-yes,emotional-yes,soulful-yes,he was all of thoses things and more.read what you cna find on him and you will discover a person who was at times: a cut-up,melancholy,incredibly quick-witted,very loving in his own way,and many other things.People talk about soul-less playing.How about soul-less people who have nothing better to do than talk s** about someone who whether or not desrved can no longer defend themselves.My Longwinded .02 worth.
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« Reply #42 on: Nov 02, 2007, 08:02AM »

As I said, I enjoy his playing, and have listened to him for years- It just stuck me as odd to watch him for the first time that his face (except for his chops- there's a lesson!) doesn't move at all, his eyes blink occasionally, and his expression doesn't change until he's done, then he smiles. I'm sure he was just completely focused on what was going on around him, and channeling the energy of the other musicians into his own creative process. I usually close my eyes when I do that, he didn't, no big deal. I've had people remark that I sometimes sleep with my eyes open, and it can be a bit unnerving, so that made me think that Mama had picked up on that aspect without maybe realizing that's what it was.
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« Reply #43 on: Nov 02, 2007, 08:13AM »

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If we're gonna start judging guys by how they look while they're playing (on a television set, no less)it's gonna be a looong conversation.

The rules of the game have changed in an era where everything unearthed at almost simultaneous speed about an artist unavoidably colors his or her output. Brittney Spears might have been able to avoid the recent unpleasant notoriety before the internet but now her breakdown and her fight to regain custody of her kids absolutely affects the way her music is perceived in almost real time, for better or worse.

The whole idea of artistic output is one of communication, a striving of the artist to meld a far as possible his talent/view of the world with his audience and the audience is now demanding more and more. Its a whole new ballgame going on as to the way in which an artist is perceived is evolving.

You step on stage at your own risk. And the benefits and liabilities of that risk are increasing at an accelerated pace.

Now more than ever whether those of you who dig Frank admit it or not Rosolino's music becomes, even by the ongoing debate on this forum, more and more a projection of a demonstrably very unhealthy personality, the end being the proof of that.  

It never was just about the music if it ever was.

And these days its about a whole lot more.
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« Reply #44 on: Nov 02, 2007, 08:31AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf3KkcdPRUg

(Strong language alert! RHM)
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« Reply #45 on: Nov 02, 2007, 08:48AM »


Now more than ever whether those of you who dig Frank admit it or not Rosolino's music becomes, even by the ongoing debate on this forum, more and more a projection of a demonstrably very unhealthy personality, the end being the proof of that.   


Jerry, I've noticed a more annoying than usual trend (call it a "tic" if you will)  in the arguments you've proffered on this forum of late--the simple reiteration of the same point ad nauseum and the sullen refusal to acknowledge any point made in opposition. I'm not going to even bother dredging up the questions I brought up earlier in the thread, because I'm certain you won't answer them. You never do. However, I'll do you the favor of assuming that what you write on this board isn't a reflection of some kind of mental deficiency or sociopathic disorder. It's a performance. I have to believe that, because if the person you are in real life is reflected in what you post here, heaven help you.
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« Reply #46 on: Nov 02, 2007, 09:16AM »

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Jerry, I've noticed a more annoying than usual trend (call it a "tic" if you will)  in the arguments you've proffered on this forum of late--the simple reiteration of the same point ad nauseum and the sullen refusal to acknowledge any point made in opposition. I'm not going to even bother dredging up the questions I brought up earlier in the thread, because I'm certain you won't answer them. You never do. However, I'll do you the favor of assuming that what you write on this board isn't a reflection of some kind of mental deficiency or sociopathic disorder. It's a performance. I have to believe that, because if the person you are in real life is reflected in what you post here, heaven help you.

Thats funny!  :D

If someone doesn't agree with or respond to points you think are important then they're mentally deficient.

Thats a new one.

Pardon me if I use that one with you sometime.
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« Reply #47 on: Nov 02, 2007, 09:29AM »

I can assure you that NOTHING here is new!

And let's not get into another round of sniping.
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« Reply #48 on: Nov 02, 2007, 09:43AM »

I can assure you that NOTHING here is new!

And let's not get into another round of sniping.

I'm done.
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« Reply #49 on: Nov 02, 2007, 09:53AM »

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And let's not get into another round of sniping.

Well, it didn't start from my side.

Quote
I can assure you that NOTHING here is new!

Pardon me if I disagree Moma. Well, if not new then terribly important to us as performers and the way we behave on stage and off and how those two parts of our lives are intertwined. A discussion on this very point was cut off by a misguided moderator in a different section of this forum some time ago just before the matter came to a crux and after pages of preparatory discussion. It was my submission then, as it is now, that *everything* we do, on stage or off - laugh, sing, tap dance, play the trombone, join a band, get married, kill our kids - is all part of the act.
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« Reply #50 on: Nov 02, 2007, 10:05AM »

On the topic of one's life being audible in one's music...ESPECIALLY the naked improvisations of master jazz musicians.

From a master novelist and student of the human condition, here is a passage about Bird from Thomas Pynchon´s epic novel Gravity´s Rainbow .

Quote
Down in New York, drive fast maybe get there for the last set--on 7th Ave., between 139th and 140th, tonight, “Yardbird” Parker is finding out how he can use the notes at the higher ends of these very chords to break up the melody into have mercy what is it a ******* machine gun or something man he must be out of his mind 32nd notes demisemiquavers say it very (demisemiquaver) fast in a Munchkin voice if you can dig that coming out of Dan Wall’s Chili House and down the street--****, out in all kinds of streets (his trip, by ‘39, well begun: down inside his most affirmative solos honks already the idle, amused dum-de-dumming of old Mister ******* Death he self) out over the airwaves, into the society gigs, someday as far as what seeps out hidden speakers in the city elevators and in all the markets, his bird’s singing, to gainsay the Man’s lullabies, to subvert the groggy wash of the endlessly, gutlessly overdubbed strings...So that prophecy, even up here on rainy Massachusetts Avenue, is beginning these days to work itself out in “Cherokee,” the saxes downstairs getting now into some, oh really weird ****...

"...down inside his most affirmative solos honks already the idle, amused dum-de-dumming of old Mister f*****g Death he self..."

Yup.

We are what...and how...we play.

All of us.

Bet on it.

Frank too.

S.
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« Reply #51 on: Nov 03, 2007, 06:22AM »

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We are what...and how...we play.

All of us.

Bet on it.

Frank too.


Amen
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« Reply #52 on: Nov 03, 2007, 06:41AM »

Well, of course.

However, although you can judge the player by his actions, that doesn't mean it should affect your judgement of the playing. I don't like Louis Armstrong's playing because his biographies show him to have been a thoroughly nice guy. I don't dislike Frank Rosolino's playing because he went mad and shot his kids. I just dislike his playing.
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« Reply #53 on: Nov 03, 2007, 06:57AM »

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Well, of course.

However, although you can judge the player by his actions, that doesn't mean it should affect your judgement of the playing. I don't like Louis Armstrong's playing because his biographies show him to have been a thoroughly nice guy. I don't dislike Frank Rosolino's playing because he went mad and shot his kids. I just dislike his playing.

I think you're missing the point Moma.

A players actions and his playing are the same thing, they come from the same source, his personality, who he IS. I don't dislike Frank Rosolinl's playing because he went mad and shot his kids. I can't listen to his playing because I pretend I can hear in his playing that he *was* mad and shot his kids.

To dark for me by half.
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« Reply #54 on: Nov 03, 2007, 08:07AM »

Yes, but what if you didn't KNOW he'd done that? In the days before the internet, you would probably have had no idea, unless you took the trouble to buy a bio. Many people probably still don't know his history - I certainly didn't, before it was raised here in previous topics. How would you rate his playing then? I think you're missing the point a bit too.
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« Reply #55 on: Nov 03, 2007, 08:27AM »

All right, if you're going to dredge it up, I'm no longer "done."

Christine has hit the nail on the head. Judging a man's entire artistic output by something you know about his life off the stage seems ridiculous to me. Worse than that, you're looking at the most horrible thing he ever did in his life, which is ludcrous. There are so many variables.

Is the problem his suicide? Are you going to stop listening to J.J. Johnson for the same reason?

Is the problem that he shot his sons? How do you know what J.J. would have done if his wife had committed suicide and left him as the sole supporter of two boys? You can speculate, but you will never know. The fact is that Rosolino was subjected to a set of circumstances that most of us will never face, and that we would never want to face. You may think that you'd act in an exemplary fashion when placed in the same circumstances. Be thankful that you'll never know.

If Rosolino hadn't been put to the test, chances are you'd never be seeing this "dark side" or looking for it in his music. Most people are never put to this test. Judging a man who has walked many miles in shoes that you'll never wear is spiteful, self-righteous, and ugly.

Ask someone who doesn't know how Rosolino's life ended and they'll hear no "dark side" in the music. Tell someone that Arthur Prior used to kick his dog and they'll hear it in every solo he plays. I'd like to think that an artist is everything he or she does in his or her life. Not just the worst. Looking for the worst in everything a person does is an ugly pursuit.

Jerry, your whole argument here is that you think people should sympathize with your inability to listen to Rosolino because you can't forgive him for what he did. I can't forgive him either, but I recognize that there was a Frank Rosolino before that final act, and that the music all preceded the final act. You're a very judgmental person, but you needn't drag the rest of us down with you. Why not just give in and say that something about you as a person makes Rosolino's music distasteful without continually dredging this up in the forum. What's your goal here? Do you want us to stop listening to Rosolino? You'll never succeed. Do you want us to see him as a man who did something terrible? We're already there.

I hope after your death, people see you for the good you did during your life instead of the worst thing you ever did in your life. I hope they do the same for me.
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« Reply #56 on: Nov 03, 2007, 08:53AM »

Quote
Yes, but what if you didn't KNOW he'd done that? In the days before the internet, you would probably have had no idea, unless you took the trouble to buy a bio. Many people probably still don't know his history - I certainly didn't, before it was raised here in previous topics. How would you rate his playing then?

Sabutin wrote:
Quote
Frank? He was missing something important. Certainly not sheer musical talent. The OTHER thing. Whatever the hell that is

IMHO that other thing was in Frank's case some very loose marbles which finally resulted in a horrible catastrophe. And it came out his horn if you're listening, again in my opinion. The internet doesn't help this situation these days but the circumstances of Franks death were widely known before its existence.

And if you will allow me to quote myself for emphasis...

Quote
It was my submission then, as it is now, that *everything* we do, on stage or off - laugh, sing, tap dance, play the trombone, join a band, get married, kill our kids - is all part of the act.

Now more than ever, the whole message is the message.

Whether we pay attention is another question.

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« Reply #57 on: Nov 03, 2007, 08:56AM »

So, why do so many people rate Rosolino's playing so highly?

I personally don't like his playing because it appears to me to be merely a technical exercise (which is also the case for a number of contemporary players), but others see it very differently.
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« Reply #58 on: Nov 03, 2007, 09:17AM »

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So, why do so many people rate Rosolino's playing so highly?

As we all agree, Rosolino was a phonemenal jazz trombonist.

An very original sounding one too.

But so was Ian Brady who committed the Moors murders.

An original that is, not a trombonist as far as is known.  :-0
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« Reply #59 on: Nov 03, 2007, 09:28AM »

Hmmm. Thanks for that insight, Jerry.

However, I'm not sure you answered my question.

No, I'm quite sure you didn't!
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« Reply #60 on: Nov 03, 2007, 10:21AM »

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Hmmm. Thanks for that insight, Jerry.

However, I'm not sure you answered my question.

No, I'm quite sure you didn't!

Well let me put it this way.

If Hitler had been a trombone virtuoso would you buy his recordings?

To me the difference between the two men is one of difference of degree rather than kind. Both men were loons with a definite connection to the dark side. And both were responsible for taking innocent life. I needn't add that evil can sometimes hide behind a very attractive face.

And what is that quote from the Koran about the taking of one innocent life being akin to the murder of the whole of humanity?
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« Reply #61 on: Nov 03, 2007, 10:37AM »

Dang, after all this it's a good thing Frank wasn't a Doodler.   Evil

But seriously, a seriously nice F to open.  He had a great G, too, I think best I've heard.

And on the show this clip is from he's using a horn that I could swear says F. E. Olds on the garland (!), but I've never seen anything that looks like it anywhere else. 
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« Reply #62 on: Nov 03, 2007, 11:08AM »

It seems we may have opened up a fertile new branch of psychiatric diagnosis.  I never would have guessed it possible to identify a suicidal murderer based on listening to a musical excerpt.  I'll keep my ears open for this now.  Maybe we can use this technique to arrest other musicians before they kill their loved ones.
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« Reply #63 on: Nov 03, 2007, 11:25AM »

If Hitler had been a trombone virtuoso would you buy his recordings?

I can understand having qualms about listening to such recordings.  I can also understand appreciating such recordings musically.  It seems to be politically correct that "thou shalt not say anything nice about Adolf Hitler, ever"; I think that's unfortunate.  It is also apparently politically correct that "thou shalt not listen to Rosolino without thinking of the end of his life"; I think that's unfortunate, too.  I like to think that I could listen to Rosolino and decide whether I like his playing based on his playing, the same way I evaluate Cat Stevens, Gesualdo, Wagner, Fillmore, Bach, Henry VIII, and a host of other musicians who have various kinds of objectionable behaviors in their lives.
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« Reply #64 on: Nov 03, 2007, 11:27AM »

My compromise on this issue is to listen only to the music he played before the murder/suicide.
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« Reply #65 on: Nov 03, 2007, 11:38AM »

....I don't remember him playing too much afterwards....
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« Reply #66 on: Nov 03, 2007, 02:58PM »

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Dang, after all this it's a good thing Frank wasn't a Doodler.   

Now that REALLY would have been the last straw.
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« Reply #67 on: Nov 03, 2007, 03:04PM »

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  It seems to be politically correct that "thou shalt not say anything nice about Adolf Hitler, ever"; I think that's unfortunate.

Hitler gets a bad rap eh?

In that case I have some friends in east germany that shave their heads who would be glad to meet you.
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« Reply #68 on: Nov 03, 2007, 03:05PM »

I like to think that I could listen to Rosolino and decide whether I like his playing based on his playing, the same way I evaluate Cat Stevens, Gesualdo, Wagner, Fillmore, Bach, Henry VIII, and a host of other musicians who have various kinds of objectionable behaviors in their lives.

You forgot Michael Jackson...
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« Reply #69 on: Nov 03, 2007, 03:23PM »

But.... but.... Jerry, if Hitler had written music, and you had never heard of him, would you be able to divine his unsavoury actions from his music? I doubt if you are, or if anyone is, that perceptive.

And I don't like the sound of your friends.
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« Reply #70 on: Nov 03, 2007, 03:25PM »

I'm not sure how to apply the "did the artist's life conform to Jerry's code for how it should turn out" standard for art----what if I see an interesting CD and just want to listen? Should i purchase a biography of the performer, composer or publisher first? what if it's an Andean pan-flute quartet and no names are listed? And what is a "dark" side? Did Hector Berlioz have a side that was too dark? Coltrane? Monk? Miles?

I'm really torn now about antiquities. Seeing an art book I have no idea what the artists did---did they drink too much? Were they mean to their slaves? Did they sleep with a patron's wife? Did he murder someone? Did the artist have a gay lover?

What a mess!  Yeah, RIGHT.
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« Reply #71 on: Nov 03, 2007, 03:26PM »

Well, he might have chopped his ear off.
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« Reply #72 on: Nov 03, 2007, 03:38PM »

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I'm really torn now about antiquities. Seeing an art book I have no idea what the artists did---did they drink too much? Were they mean to their slaves? Did they sleep with a patron's wife? Did he murder someone?

What a mess!

How inconvenient for you!

This consciousness raising business can take all the fun out of pastimes like browsing the aisles of the local jewelry shop. Was diamond mined by slave labor? Do the proceeds of the sale underwrite arms sales to shady regimes? etc. etc.

Much easier to just close your eyes and consume.
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« Reply #73 on: Nov 03, 2007, 03:41PM »

Do you live in a different way to this, Jerry? Do you buy Fair Trade coffee, ensure that your bank doesn't invest in corrupt regimes, worry about slave labour when you buy your jeans, not have friends who shave their hair and wear Swasticas?

And you still haven't answered my question about how you think YOU can discern a person's actions through his music. I'm quite sure you cannot. And I'm quite sure you won't answer my question either.
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« Reply #74 on: Nov 03, 2007, 04:01PM »

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Do you live a different way, Jerry? Do you buy Fair Trade coffee, ensure that your bank doesn't invest in corrupt regimes, worry about slave labour when you buy your jeans, not have friends who shave their hair and wear Swastikas?

You have to allow me a smidgen of poetic license from time to time Mama. For the Record I have absolutely no friemds who shave their hair and/or wear swastikas.  :)

As for living a different way I live the same way most everyone else does, except that I wouldn't let anyone I know who murdered his young child OR their music anywhere near my 5 year old son.
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« Reply #75 on: Nov 03, 2007, 04:03PM »

Ah, but you have to KNOW that. If you didn't know, you WOULDN'T know.
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« Reply #76 on: Nov 03, 2007, 04:11PM »

Hitler gets a bad rap eh?

See, now, you're being politically correct again, and making invalid assumptions about what I said.

Let's say someone you know of is a fine artist.  You think that person's artwork is excellent.  That person's artwork is displayed in galleries and generally reviewed very well.  Then that person goes and guns down a hundred people at a shopping mall.

Of course that person's actions are horrid.  However, it suddenly becomes politically correct to avoid calling that person's artwork "well done".  It becomes a knee-jerk reaction of people who only view the world in black and white to condemn ANY positive statement about that person.  History gets revised; that person's art work was suddenly NEVER any good, despite your previous enjoyment of it, despite the critical praise, despite the gallery showings.  That's idiotic to the extreme.
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« Reply #77 on: Nov 03, 2007, 04:17PM »

I wouldn't let anyone I know who murdered his young child OR their music anywhere near my 5 year old son.

Do you know for certain that every composer and every arranger and every performer on every recording you own did not commit some heinous act later in life?  Do you know for certain that none of the music you listen to was the favorite music of some serial killer?
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« Reply #78 on: Nov 03, 2007, 04:21PM »

Many people live right next door to a serial killer and think of him as that quiet guy next door. We are NOT that perceptive and I believe we should just take the music on its merits.
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« Reply #79 on: Nov 03, 2007, 04:24PM »

And you still haven't answered my question about how you think YOU can discern a person's actions through his music.
Well you can't expect a person to give up the secrets of such a rare talent so easily, certainly not on an Internet chat board.  I also have that talent.  And while I'm not going to tell all of my secrets, let me caution you to avoid too many staccatos in your solos, and never, under any circumstance should you play repetitive tritones.  You might find yourself arrested on the spot if there is another of us musical mind readers in your company. 

Oh yes ... one other thing.  Don't shoot anybody during your act.  That is another of the major warning signs.

I've probably said way too much already.
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« Reply #80 on: Nov 03, 2007, 04:29PM »

And you still haven't answered my question about how you think YOU can discern a person's actions through his music. I'm quite sure you cannot. And I'm quite sure you won't answer my question either.

He didn't.
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« Reply #81 on: Nov 03, 2007, 04:46PM »

Do you know for certain that every composer and every arranger and every performer on every recording you own did not commit some heinous act later in life?  Do you know for certain that none of the music you listen to was the favorite music of some serial killer?

This is a poor argument. We're not talking about if  Frank committed murder... he did commit murder. If a tree falls in the forest and all that.

I think Jerry has every right not to listen to Frank Rosolino for whatever reason he so chooses. And that reason could change from day to day.

RHM has the right to think Frank's playing stinks... I think that's fine.

I don't really see what the point of Jerry's arguing about it is though. Maybe he could enlighten? I mean, is it a crusade to try and get other people not to listen to Frank? Because I think that's silly.
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« Reply #82 on: Nov 03, 2007, 05:18PM »

I think Jerry's saying that his knowledge of Frank's sad demise makes him less disposed to listen to Frank's music, and he doesn't like it anyway. That's his privilege.

The business about "the dark side showing up in the music" is a little iffier. I find a lot of joy in Michael Jackson's music and would never by listening to it think of him as a pathetic, child-molesting weirdo. Maybe some people keep their music in a little compartment within themselves and protect it from everything else.

I find Frank's playing to be sly, wry, hip, a little deadpan and detached, like dry humor. I hear the same quality in his speaking and singing.

As someone who experienced mental illness in my family, I know it can be tricky to draw any conclusion about someone's personality or character from it. The onset of mental illness can be as unrelated to the person's underlying character as the onset of the flu or measles. The illness is more like an overlay than a part of the person.

Of course it's possible that he was ill in his later recordings and Jerry can detect that. If so, I'm going to get all my employees to play the trombone and send Jerry the tracks. He can tell me which ones are using drugs.
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« Reply #83 on: Nov 03, 2007, 05:26PM »



I don't really see what the point of Jerry's arguing about it is though. Maybe he could enlighten? I mean, is it a crusade to try and get other people not to listen to Frank? Because I think that's silly.

Don't expect an answer any time soon. So far, the extent of Jerry's argument is that  all of Rosolino's music was permeated with the character flaw which would eventually result in his final acts on this earth, which were terrible by any standards, and that Jerry can't listen to Rosolino without thinking about those last acts. I don't know why he can't simply accept that rather than broadcasting it on this forum every time Rosolino's playing is mentioned. And I still don't know what I'm supposed to do with this information. Stop listening to Rosolino? Burn my Rosolino CDs? Burn your Rosolino CDs? Boycott any store that sells them? I don't know, and Jerry ain't talking.

He still hasn't said whether his son is allowed to listen to J.J. Johnson, who also committed suicide, or to Coltrane, who abused drugs. Perhaps they're only allowed to listen to Christian Rock. You can never be too careful.  Yeah, RIGHT.
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« Reply #84 on: Nov 03, 2007, 05:27PM »

Of course it's possible that he was ill in his later recordings and Jerry can detect that. If so, I'm going to get all my employees to play the trombone and send Jerry the tracks. He can tell me which ones are using drugs.
If you listen to his solo on "All The Things You Are" played backwards at 4 times the normal speed, you can clearly hear what sounds like, "I'm losing it.  Somebody stop me.", although it sounds more like Mickey Mouse's voice than Frank's, so I'm not sure what that means.
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« Reply #85 on: Nov 03, 2007, 05:35PM »

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Ah, but you have to KNOW that. If you didn't know, you WOULDN'T know.

But we DO know.

And we'll know more and more about each other in the future.

Quote
If you didn't know, you WOULDN'T know.

I never claimed you could as I remember. What I HAVE been saying is that Rosolinos's music is "the fruit of the poisoned tree" and is irrevocably tainted by who he was and the way he behaved. Art doesn't exist in a vacuum. Hearing that music without knowing the history behind it is like eating delicious steak thats gone bad even though it continues to taste and smell OK. You can still get sick.


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See, now, you're being politically correct again, and making invalid assumptions about what I said.

Politically correct has nothing to do with it. Hitler was a monster and a maniac who instigated the deaths of millions of people. The fact that he might have cut unemployment in Germany for a while in the thirties as he built autobahns to help transport his armies around the country in preparation for total war is so insignificant as to be unmentionable. Any flowers he might have presented to a war widow would be tainted in the same way, good in itself but absolutely tainted when connected with him. 

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I don't really see what the point of Jerry's arguing about it is though. Maybe he could enlighten?

This subject has been an open question in my mind since the original discussion was quashed on the forum some months ago. Giving the subject a full airing now is the best way to bring some finality to what I consider to be an important issue about one the jazz trombone's most sacred cows.

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I'm going to get all my employees to play the trombone and send Jerry the tracks. He can tell me which ones are using drugs.

Its going to cost you.

And not only money.

You might have to unload some principles at the same time.

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« Reply #86 on: Nov 03, 2007, 06:08PM »

I have to agree with Jerry (mark your calendars!) that it's always seemed a little strange that the topic is off-limits.

Of course it goes to repetition pretty quickly, and maybe some of the senior members of this forum wore it out long ago.

Kinda like asking who's better Alessi or CL, or 'Which mouthpiece is best for jazz?'

I have to admit that Jerry's added a twist--not just "I won't listen to him because of what he did," but "His music sounds like what he did."

It's not impossible. If he was bipolar, he might have committed the crimes while depressed and played too many turns while manic.
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« Reply #87 on: Nov 03, 2007, 06:22PM »

Calendar marked.

Listen I'm struggling with this myself, its not like I pretend to have all the answers.

But this is a BIG question folks. Morality and Art is a huge and important subject and one as artists we need to deal with not least because its germane to one of our heros.

"Which mouthpiece should I use" pales in comparison.

And speaking of senior members, where the hell is Sam when we need him?
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« Reply #88 on: Nov 03, 2007, 06:30PM »

What I HAVE been saying is that Rosolinos's music is "the fruit of the poisoned tree" and is irrevocably tainted by who he was and the way he behaved.

It's tainted in YOUR view, but that doesn't mean it's tainted for everybody, nor should it be.

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Hearing that music without knowing the history behind it

Wouldn't that be the history ahead of it?

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Hitler was a monster and a maniac who instigated the deaths of millions of people.

I didn't claim otherwise.

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The fact that he might have ...

All completely irrelevant.  Nobody made any claims about Hitler being a "good person" or a "good leader" or any such sentiment.  He was a painter as a young man; was he any good?  Or can't you imagine anyone being able to evaluate the young Hitler as an artist while knowing what he did later in life?

Some people can't listen to Wagner because of his anti-Semitism.  That's their prerogative.  It's when they insist that OTHER people not listen to Wagner that it becomes a problem.  They may also think it's important for every potential listener to be aware that Wagner was an anti-Semite; I disagree.  Music is music.  Ars gratia artis.  I can listen to Henry VIII without qualms even though he killed several of his wives; perhaps that's too brutal for some other people, though.
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« Reply #89 on: Nov 03, 2007, 07:53PM »

Hitler was a great painter! He could paint an entire apartment in one afternoon.........two coats Evil
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« Reply #90 on: Nov 04, 2007, 03:24AM »

These Rosolini suicide/murder topics roll around fairly frequently. They don't get locked because the subject is taboo. They get locked because they invariably turn nasty. I'm hoping this one won't.
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« Reply #91 on: Nov 04, 2007, 03:44AM »

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They don't get locked because the subject is taboo. They get locked because they invariably turn nasty.

Thats not entirely true Mama. The one in particular that I remember was terminated because the Moderater thought that the discussion about Rosolino was "mean spirited". Guess he was a Rosolino fan. At any rate it was very apparent that he personally couldn't deal with the issue.
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« Reply #92 on: Nov 04, 2007, 04:01AM »

Well, I hope this doesn't get mean-spirited then! To my mind, the man comes under the category of a celebrity, and it is Forum policy for members freely to discuss celebrities/politicians/religious leaders as long as the TOU are broadly adhered to. Also, he is dead, so cannot be harmed by our discussions, which may even interest new members in his playing. I apologise to Rosolino fans whom I have offended (and may offend again), but we are all entitled to proffer opinions. For myself as moderator, I'll just be watching out for personal sniping between members.
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« Reply #93 on: Nov 04, 2007, 05:10AM »

Maybe we can talk about Frank's golfing. 

I mean, here's a guy, a TROMBONIST, for goodness sakes, on NATIONAL TV, like, how often does a TROMBONIST get a FULL HALF HOUR on NATIONAL TV, and what does the guy do?  Ok, he plays some great trombone, but spends maybe FIVE MINUTES of NATIONAL AIR TIME talking about how he likes to PLAY GOLF!

I'm thinking this was a sign, a sign to anyone paying attention, serious imbalance here...
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« Reply #94 on: Nov 04, 2007, 05:49AM »

You're kidding, right Baileyman? A LOT of musicians play golf!

Frank flipped, simple as that. It happens more often than you know. And it's almost always a guy, not a gal, that takes out his family and then himself.

Jerry, I find it hard to belive that Frank's recording of "take me out to the ballgame", recorded when he was very young, is "the fruit of the poisoned tree". I'm sure that he was a very different man at age 45 than he was at age 20. I know I am. Life can beat a person up, sometimes badly.

I, like many others was disgusted by his final ending and didn't listen to his playing for at least 10 years. Then, for some reason, I began listening to him again and I enjoy his artistry very much. Forgiveness on my part? If that's even the correct word. Don't know.
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« Reply #95 on: Nov 04, 2007, 05:58AM »

RedHotMama, no need to apologize to this Ros fan. But I do find it interesting that you seem to not like many trombonists beyond the 1920's gut-bucket style of playing.
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« Reply #96 on: Nov 04, 2007, 06:27AM »

Frank flipped, simple as that. It happens more often than you know.
Definitely.  A fellow trombonist of mine is a psychiatrist.  We were chatting the other night.  He has an endless supply of really tragic stories.  There are disturbed people all around, and most of them look perfectly normal until they flip.  Unfortunately our uniquely American approach to health care means that the first time many of these people can get professional help is when they are in prison, which is where the majority of his practice is these days.
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« Reply #97 on: Nov 04, 2007, 08:25AM »

RedHotMama, no need to apologize to this Ros fan. But I do find it interesting that you seem to not like many trombonists beyond the 1920's gut-bucket style of playing.

It would be a mistake to believe that all 1920s trombone players were "gut-bucket". There were some really nifty players back then, and a wide variety of styles. I don't like the 1920s playing of Kid Ory, who even to my mind was clunky, but no-one could accuse Miff Mole of that. Sweet, lyrical, skilled and sophisticated music.

What I do dislike are trombone players who apparently include "notes" just for the sake of them. I confess that I haven't heard much Ros, but he seems to me to come into the category of trombone players who, simply put, play too many notes and, moreover, too many high notes. IMO, in a jazz band, this is the function of the trumpet(s) and reeds. If we all do it, then where is the contrast and richness of variety? OK, in the hands of a master, the trombone CAN play multiple high notes, but I would much rather it didn't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djSuSK_E6Ww
(Miff's solo at 1.25)

http://www.redhotjazz.com/mmm.html
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« Reply #98 on: Nov 04, 2007, 11:32AM »

You're kidding, right Baileyman? A LOT of musicians play golf!

Uh, oh.
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« Reply #99 on: Nov 04, 2007, 12:09PM »

Well Mama, I'd hardly call that Miff Mole solo sophisticated, perhaps for the times it was, but not now.

Frank was a soloist and often times the leader of a quartet or quintet playing music much different than your favorite type of music. When he blew, his voice took it where it took him. It's where he heard it. High? Sometimes, but he didn't spend an extraordinary amount of time in the stratosphere. A lot of notes? Not by todays standards. Lord knows there are many trombonists today that play way more notes than Frank ever did. Frank was hip, whereas most are not.
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« Reply #100 on: Nov 04, 2007, 01:00PM »

What I do dislike are trombone players who apparently include "notes" just for the sake of them.
I absolutely agree.  And today's university system manufactures trombonists who end up with way more technique than music.  But I don't think that fairly applies to Rosolino.
[Rosolino] seems to me to come into the category of trombone players who, simply put, play too many notes and, moreover, too many high notes.
I never considered him an exceptionally high player.  He would throw in Ds and Ebs, but they were well within his command.  He tended to attack these high notes very hard, so they may be more memorable than other things he was doing.  They always struck me as exclamation points, (ed) not just playing high for show.  (On edit, changed "but" to "not", which was what I meant to say.)



As far as the number of notes, that definitely comes down to a matter of personal preference.  I'm generally in your camp about this.  I cringe when I hear trombonists playing lots of notes because almost none of them can do that very well.  To my ears, Rosolino is the only trombonist who pulls this off consistently in a musical way.  I've never heard a recording where his fast passages lose contact with the groove.  While his phrases aren't placed perfectly like a robot, his musical intent is always clear -- always.  And within that clearly expressed musical intent are really sophisticated musical concepts.  When I hear other trombonists trying to play fast, what I hear is mainly licks and cliches, and even on those well practiced cliches, they often find themselves separated from the groove inside of a couple of bars.

If you don't enjoy hearing fast playing, I have no argument with you.  But just don't judge Rosolino based on how other fast-playing trombonists sound to you.  He was one of a kind.
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« Reply #101 on: Nov 04, 2007, 04:48PM »

I originally wrote this the other day and I somehow deleted it.I think along the lines of: Frank played what his soul told him to play at that moment.Sometimes manic,sometimes melancholy,sometimes beautiful,sometimes nasty.All normal human emotions.The fact that he was always,or almost always on the edge,has been talked about,and I believe fairly well documented for those who have studied his history and demise.He was definitely flawed,like most of us.For whatever reason,those flaws caused him to do something extremely horrific.I don't bleieve his whole life should be judged by those last horrible moments.I like to think of all of the happiness and laughter and enjoyment he brought(and stil brings) to many people all over the world.
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« Reply #102 on: Nov 04, 2007, 06:23PM »

Yep, and it's those extremes in human emotions that, in part, make great artists great. Frank; one dimensional? Hardly. A bad seed? Not in my book.

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« Reply #103 on: Nov 04, 2007, 07:18PM »

I love Rosolino on trombone...not vocals...

There is no such thing as the best anything...but he is definitely up there in my book of the all time greatest.

NZ
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« Reply #104 on: Nov 05, 2007, 01:11AM »

OK. I now have to put myself into one of my own categories - those for whom this discussion will bring about an interest in Frank Rosolino. I had obviously put HIM into the wrong category. Are there any more online recordings towards which you can point me? (I'm not quite at the stage of wanting to buy any!).

I don't mind if most of today's jazz trombonists want to play multiple high notes. Go for it, guys. I just avoid their recordings and the bands in which they play. However, last night, at a benefit for a sick banjo player, I was on stage with three other trombonists, all of whom were male and twice my size, and all of whom played high and fiddly. I was pleased (and proud) to be able to stand up there and play, if not with as much technique, then at least with some (excuse me) balls.

You should have heard our version of Tiger Rag! Eeek! :D
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« Reply #105 on: Nov 05, 2007, 06:26AM »

Mama i don't think any more recordings of Frank will do it "for you" i just don't think you are hearing it!!!
And i think you've already made your mind up about "nimble" trombonists.

BTW I'd be very interested to know who the other 3 bone players were that you played alongside!
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« Reply #106 on: Nov 05, 2007, 06:45AM »

Errrrrrrrm....

I don't know who two of them were, but the third was the guy who currently plays with Kenny Ball's jazz band. I believe his name is John Bennett. One problem with being a trombone player on the UK jazz scene is that you don't get to meet or play with many others. Last night was a rare treat, but even then I didn't get to speak to them. BTW, all three were excellent players.

However, the reason I'm now asking about Frank is because you guys are telling me that he is NOT just a nimble player, but something special. I would like to learn more.
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« Reply #107 on: Nov 05, 2007, 08:11AM »

However, the reason I'm now asking about Frank is because you guys are telling me that he is NOT just a nimble player, but something special. I would like to learn more.
At the end of the day, you may decide that this still isn't your cup of tea -- that his intensity is more of a distraction than a benefit to the musical message.  That's OK.  But I think you will agree there is more to his music than the normal hyperactive meandering one hears from so many trombonists.
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« Reply #108 on: Nov 05, 2007, 08:32AM »

As someone who experienced mental illness in my family, I know it can be tricky to draw any conclusion about someone's personality or character from it. The onset of mental illness can be as unrelated to the person's underlying character as the onset of the flu or measles. The illness is more like an overlay than a part of the person.

In Roots of the Self, Robert Ornstein discusses a personality axis. On one axis we have something like "the ability to organize the world"---on one extreme there is obsessive-compulsive disorder, on the is schizophrenia. If you imagine a number line, most of us lie somewhere in the middle, although accountants, mathematicians, lawyers, for example may be slightly to the left and singers, dancers, artists, athletes may be slightly to the right of middle. Many of the most creative poets, artists and musicians happen to be "tilted" to the right as it were.

When one moves too far in either direction we have mental illness or an emotional disorder. There is no blame or moral judgment here----no more than catching the flu, measles or the common cold. But the long term effects on the human psyche can be much worse for mental disorders. Consider, too, that these things were not as well understood in Rossolino's day. What happened to him is tragic. It didn't affect any music he had already made.

It is appropriate for musicians to discuss Frank's music. And we will have our own emotional reactions to the circumstances of his death. I believe his death is irrelevant to a discussion of his music. Unless someone here is a practicing psychiatrist with access to his medical records, judgments about his personal life have no place here. This kind of false morality is really injurious and misplaced. It is also unseemly.

Are we really supposed to think, when listening to a musician or a composer----OMG, this was a man who went went crazy? Came down with syphilis? Had an affair with a slave? 
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« Reply #109 on: Nov 05, 2007, 08:53AM »

---snip--- all of whom played high and fiddly.

You made me spill my coffee!!!

Quote
"High and fiddly."

No more perfect description of a style of jazz trombone playing to which I literally cannot stand to listen has ever been spoken.

Thank you.

Now...on to Frank again.

You say elsewhere here that you are being led to believe that he was something special.

He WAS something special.

He was a totally...and damned near uncopyable...original.

He never seemed to be able to play a bad note; he played with great rhythmic power and...when he decided to do so...with a modicum of physical power as well.

Plus...he could play in ways other than the patented "Rosolino" style. Witness his work on the film "In Cold Blood". After much searching, I found that it was he who was playing the absolutely amazing strange-muted trombone solos (I still can't figure out what the mute was.) on the Quincy Jones (or whoever Quincy hired to ghost for him) soundtrack.

My problem with listening to his playing is that early on in his career he settled into a mannerism and lick-based style that just doesn't hold my interest. Once he starts a line on a solo I can almost sing the next few bars of it. All those little turns. They just mask a lack of interest in digging deeper.In taking the easy route.

Now...that was his business and I am no one to be pointing fingers of blame at his personal life. He was a very successful working musician and soloist, and more power to him. However, my own tastes run more to people who take that extra chance, people who forever triy to get a little further both on the horn AND in their musical modes of expression.

Even if they fail once in a while.

So I do not listen much to him.

Don't try this at home; trained professionals are running this course; results may vary and that's what makes horseraces.

Etc.

We are all born pretty well hard-wired.

So it goes and may his soul rest in peace.

Later...

AG
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« Reply #110 on: Nov 05, 2007, 10:30AM »

Damned near uncopyable........................Exactly why I like him so much.
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« Reply #111 on: Nov 05, 2007, 10:57AM »

raw
rough and tumble
honest
ballsy
so very melodic

At or near the end of his life, he was one of the most pathos-laden improvisors I have heard.
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« Reply #112 on: Nov 05, 2007, 08:24PM »

Mama,Try to find some of his Ballad work.One of the later recordings that immediately comes to mind is on the tune "Violets" form a recording with the Metropole Orchestra.One of my personal favorites is "I don't Want to Run Around Anymore" from the "Converstaion" album with Conte Condoli.He was indeed an intense soloist most of the time,but on those occaisions when you could hear him playing more sparsely,those ar real gems in my mind,if you want dark sounding (psychologically speaking), playing,check out "Gloomy Sunday" from the last studio recording of Supersax(sorry,I don't recall the name of the recording).There are many,many more if you take the time to search them out.
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« Reply #113 on: Nov 06, 2007, 01:54AM »

Quote
Are we really supposed to think, when listening to a musician or a composer----OMG, this was a man who went went crazy? Came down with syphilis? Had an affair with a slave?

Well, yeah. Its becoming unavoidable and music does not exist in a vacuum. Again, if Hitler had been a trombone virtuoso, how many of you would enjoy his recordings. People and their music are the same thing as Sam has also pointed out.  Notes, and jazz music in particular which is why I'm hooked,  aren't just a pleasing arrangement of sounds. Someone is *responsible*  for them. And someone is responsible for the death of 2 children.

Coming down with Syphilis or having an affair with a slave is one thing. Shooting your kids is quite another wouldn't you say?

In my opinion Franks kids were worth much more than the sum total of every note Rosolino ever played. Better his music would have died and his kids lived no matter how much enjoyment those notes gave fans. 

In my humble opinion.

There's also another related issue to this discussion and that's the issue of responsibility. Other observers than my self have noted the decline in the concept of responsibility in  society. Maybe mental instability is not the entirely free pass some people give it. "Oh he went nuts, he's not responsible" being a subtext of this discussion. The truth is that we don't know what Frank's mental state was. Its also possible that underneath it all he was just an evil cat. I hope not.
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« Reply #114 on: Nov 06, 2007, 02:23AM »

Reading his biographies, I see no indication that he was "evil". And had he been, then surely he would just have shot the kids and not himself.

BTW, one of the children survived.

I found it interesting to read the comments of those associated with him at the time.

http://www.jazzmasters.nl/rosolino.htm#Joker
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« Reply #115 on: Nov 06, 2007, 02:30AM »

Again, if Hitler had been a trombone virtuoso, how many of you would enjoy his recordings.


If he had been then he probably wouldn't have started all that trouble.

This discussion is actually pointless.

Either you like it or you don't.

I'm a big Rosolino fan as i am too a big JJ fan, oh and an Andy Martin, Bob McChesney, Carl Fontana, Hal Crook, Jack Teagarden, Trummy Young, Urbie Green etc, etc..........Blah, blah blah fan, the list goes on!!!!!

I find music, beauty, skill, soul, happiness, sadness, blah blah blah......... in their playing!!!

Their states of mind don't affect my enjoyment at all.

Who are we to judge their mental state anyway?

 :(





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« Reply #116 on: Nov 06, 2007, 02:37AM »

Yup, pointless, Chris. Someone (it's usually only one person) says he can't listen to the music because of the history behind it. Most other people ask what difference it makes to the music itself. Round and round and round, until someone starts slagging off another member and the topic gets locked. As I said, I don't intend for that to happen on this occasion, but it's still pointless.
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« Reply #117 on: Nov 06, 2007, 06:36AM »

TOTAL AGREEMENT!
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« Reply #118 on: Nov 06, 2007, 06:56AM »


Coming down with Syphilis or having an affair with a slave is one thing. Shooting your kids is quite another wouldn't you say?
How his disease manifested is National Enquirer stuff. I'm not criminalizing or comparing various human acts---just pointing out that they're irrelevant to a discussion of music.

There are people leading countries now who are responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of children. You actually seem quite supportive of those child killers. And they don't even have the problems Rossolino had. It's just a different discussion than what one thinks of a man's music.
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« Reply #119 on: Nov 06, 2007, 08:37AM »

The most fundamental attribute shared by conservatives is their inability to empathize.  If the conservative has food in his belly, the hungry person must have a work ethic problem.  If the conservative has a roof over his head, then the homeless person must have wasted their opportunities.  If the conservative has health insurance, well ... they don't have much of an answer for the people who have no means for health coverage.

Conservatives cannot relate to things that do not affect them personally.  The only conservatives in favor of stem cell research are the ones like Nancy Reagan who are personally affected by a disease like Alzheimer's.  The only conservatives conserved about global warming are those who have a mansion on a beach that is being threatened by the rising sea levels as the polar ice fields and glaciers worldwide disintegrate.  The only conservatives who can be compassionate about gays are the ones like Cheney who have a gay person in their immediate family.

It turns out that this is not just a bad attitude, narcissism, selfishness or some other character defect.  It appears that this primary conservative trait is truly a mental illness -- a mild form of autism.  And the good news is that it may be curable.  I find this research very exciting.  I can't think of any medical breakthrough that could have a more beneficial effect on mankind.

Very interesting article

Frank was ill.  Mental illness is real.  If one has trouble empathizing with that, then maybe there will soon be a treatment available.
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« Reply #120 on: Nov 06, 2007, 09:03AM »

Amen Actikid........ Good!
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« Reply #121 on: Nov 06, 2007, 09:06AM »

What an interesting theory. Yet, my own mother is a conservative, and still has more empathy than just about anyone I know. She is a special ed. teacher, and knows much about mental problems. She would get a kick (and not in a good way) from your post. Oh, the irony.

Your remarks about conservatism and mental deficiencies strikes me as somewhat insulting. Yes, I know you aren't singling anyone out in particular, but categorizing and defining a large group of people (most of which you don't know) with such assurance is not very.... well, for lack of a better term... empathetic.
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« Reply #122 on: Nov 06, 2007, 09:16AM »

All conservatives are mentally ill.  :D

Great! You ought to volunteer that slogan for the next election. Its a real vote getter, that one.

Quote
Frank was ill.

How do you know? Because anyone who acts like that must be ill? To maintain that is to deny any possibility of evil in the world and any responsibility for it.





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« Reply #123 on: Nov 06, 2007, 09:18AM »

Thanks Dan H for your response to actikid. I'm definitely a conservative and find his comments to be very insulting. Oh the irony, indeed! Interesting how he turned this thread into conservative bashing. Talk about a mental disorder!
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« Reply #124 on: Nov 06, 2007, 09:30AM »

All conservatives are mentally ill.  :D

Great! You ought to volunteer that slogan for the next election. Its a real vote getter, that one.

How do you know? Because anyone who acts like that must be ill? To maintain that is to deny any possibility of evil in the world and any responsibility for it.






Someone that does what Rosolino did was ill.  No doubt about it.  At least to me.  Not that he wasn't responsible.  I believe that as well.  Mental illness shouldn't absolve you of a crime but can explain it.  Is there actually evil in the world?   I don't know.  I think "evil" is really a manifestation of mental illness of some kind.  Rosolino was ill and had he been able to seek help the tragedy might, I repeat might, not have happened. 
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« Reply #125 on: Nov 06, 2007, 10:46AM »

I find it interesting (in a pathetic way) that this turned into a political discussion. 

And that there are those here who are so wise that they can categorize everyone in two camps.  Because if that other camp were gone, everything would be right with the world...them and us.  Brilliant!

From the descriptions it's pretty obvious that Frank was manic depressive.  Also from many friends descriptions that NOW the realize what was going on and are much more aware of others suffering from manic depression.  Also these friends and colleagues delt with this betrayal/loss in many ways.  Some rallied to help the family, some won't talk about it, some blamed themselves.  For some it affected the way they percieve his music, in other they refuse to acknowledge his music.

I didn't find out about him until after his death.  Many untrue stories were floating around, garish trombone tabloid journalism at it's best.

When I did hear his music I always found it vital and energetic.  Yes, there are trombonastics...and I'm still impressed.  He took chances, stood with the best boppers of the time.  An icon of jazz and trombone.

Haters, continue on...


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« Reply #126 on: Oct 17, 2009, 08:59PM »

You can choose to not like Frank, but to say that he is not one of the best is ludicris, CRAZY, and most of all a LIE. You can challenge me on this, because most of the top jazz trombone players in the world hail Frank as one of the best.


"Frank Rosolino was towering genius and trombone virtuoso..." -JJ Johnson

Conrad Herwig made a transcription book on him.

John Fedchock produced a CD of unissued Rosolino recordings.

Carl Fontana once said that Rosolino was one of his favorite jazz players.

BTW Sabutin your an idiot, I bet your so called "young" players that you speak of dream of playing what Frank does. to quote you "I bet on it".
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« Reply #127 on: Oct 17, 2009, 09:02PM »



How do you know? Because anyone who acts like that must be ill? To maintain that is to deny any possibility of evil in the world and any responsibility for it.






[/quote]

His family has said that he was ill.
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« Reply #128 on: Oct 18, 2009, 04:30AM »

Max, please cool it with the personal insults. Thanks.
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« Reply #129 on: Oct 18, 2009, 10:18AM »

Go ahead delete my posts, block me, but I will not stop. It seems that all anyone has done on this page is bash Frank for his musical genius and mental disabilites which he had no control over. If anyone on this post even knew anything about Frank they would know that most of the greatest jazz trombonists in the world hold him in the highest reguard and consider him one of the greatest inspirations. SO no I will not stop. You can choose to not listen to Rosolino, but if you take jazz trombone seriously YOU will have to pay attention to his name and acknowledge him whether you like it or not.
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« Reply #130 on: Oct 18, 2009, 12:39PM »

Max, no one here is bashing frank, per-se - rather underlining their own personal preferences for how the trombone should sound.  A person not agreeing with the statement "Frank is the greatest" is not bashing your hero.  It's okay that you dig him as much as you do.  Just don't expect everyone else to think that it all starts and stops with Frank.  There are guys I like much better than Frank... that doesn't change the fact that i love the guy's playing.  I just don't think he's "the greatest" - a stupider title i've never heard.


BTW Sabutin your an idiot, I bet your so called "young" players that you speak of dream of playing what Frank does. to quote you "I bet on it".


Have you actually checked out any of these young players?  I'd reckon you haven't.  The state of the trambone in NYC, hell, in the world for that matter, is pretty ridiculous - in a good way.  The reasons for this are pretty clear:  They have the benefit of the entire spectrum of Jazz history up to this day to draw from, so it not surprising that this current crop of new guys has an even deeper grasp of the horn than their predecessors.   Most of them have the entire spectrum of Jazz trombone experience in their bag. 

People tend to have strong feelings about Sam - that's okay, his sometimes brutal honesty and strong opinions tend to dictate that.  I wouldn't call him an idiot, however -  this is a personal attack that does nothing to make your point, whatever that is.  Despite the fact you may disagree with him - which is okay - given his stature in the trombone community and the length of his resume i think he's entitled to his opinion.  Disagree with him - fine.  Tell us why you disagree with him.  Frankly if you heard him play, it wouldn't matter as much to you.

We're all acknowledging Frank was good - it's just that some of us prefer JJ, Slide, Knepper, Teagarden, Priester, Butter, Tricky Sam, Beckett, Brown, Cleveland and Curtis To Roz and Fontana - it's just a matter of personal preference.
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« Reply #131 on: Oct 18, 2009, 04:48PM »

Say what you will about Frank, his playing, and the obviously tragic ending.  Here's Gloomy Sunday from Supersax's "Dynamite", recorded in Germany in the mid-70's.  Frank's playing continues to move me like few others in the jazz world, trombonist or others.

http://www.snapdrive.net/files/380186/06%20-%20Gloomy%20Sunday.mp3

RIP
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« Reply #132 on: Oct 18, 2009, 05:03PM »

Another for us all to check out:

"I Just Don't Want to Run Around Anymore" from Frank and Conte Condoli's album, Conversation, recorded in Italy in the mid-70's.  I recently found this in a two-fer CD reissue on Lonehill Jazz from Spain.  Please pardon the audio on this LP transfer w boomy bass.  Just eq it down a bit.

http://www.snapdrive.net/files/380186/I%20Just%20Don%27t%20Want%20to%20Run%20Aroun.mp3

RIP
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« Reply #133 on: Oct 18, 2009, 05:22PM »

What can I say...I'm in a sharing mood today when it comes to Frank's music and spirit.  I hope you listen and enjoy.

RIP

http://www.snapdrive.net/files/380186/Star%20Eyes.mp3
http://www.snapdrive.net/files/380186/08%20Track%208%20Here%27s%20That%20Rainy%20Day%20ftg.%20Frank%20Rosolino.mp3
http://www.snapdrive.net/files/380186/There%20is%20No%20Greater%20Love.mp3
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« Reply #134 on: Oct 18, 2009, 05:33PM »

I dont give a crap, You dont bash Rosolino and get away with it, and Sabutin was definatley bashing Frank. Frank is like Mozart, you dont have to like him, but to not acknowledge his awesomeness is CRAZY, and I repeat CRAZY!!! If someone was just sharing an opinion that would be fine. If someone was just saying, oh I dont really care for the guys style then yes that would be totally fine I would have no problem. But I know for a fact that several people on this post, NOT 1 BUT MANY, have been bashing Frank like he was stick in the mud. I SAY NO!! I will not stand for this, especially since Frank has inspired so many people around the WORLD.
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macree01
« Reply #135 on: Oct 18, 2009, 05:35PM »

Say what you will about Frank, his playing, and the obviously tragic ending.  Here's Gloomy Sunday from Supersax's "Dynamite", recorded in Germany in the mid-70's.  Frank's playing continues to move me like few others in the jazz world, trombonist or others.

http://www.snapdrive.net/files/380186/06%20-%20Gloomy%20Sunday.mp3

RIP

I agree man, this recording is very inspiring.
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« Reply #136 on: Oct 18, 2009, 06:16PM »

You dont bash Rosolino and get away with it, and Sabutin was definatley bashing Frank.

Sam's last post on the topic was over two years ago.  Here's some of what he said.  Doesn't sound in any way like bashing to me.

Quote from: sabutin
He WAS something special.

He was a totally...and damned near uncopyable...original.

He never seemed to be able to play a bad note; he played with great rhythmic power and...when he decided to do so...with a modicum of physical power as well.

Plus...he could play in ways other than the patented "Rosolino" style. Witness his work on the film "In Cold Blood". After much searching, I found that it was he who was playing the absolutely amazing strange-muted trombone solos (I still can't figure out what the mute was.) on the Quincy Jones (or whoever Quincy hired to ghost for him) soundtrack.
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« Reply #137 on: Oct 18, 2009, 10:17PM »

If anyone on this post even knew anything about Frank they would know that most of the greatest jazz trombonists in the world hold him in the highest reguard and consider him one of the greatest inspirations.

Emphasis added.

You might want to oonsider that some of the best jazz trombonists in the world post on this forum (I'm not one of them). They might already know what they think without you telling them.

Everyone here has listened to Frank extensively, and they're entitled to like or not like his playing. His personal history is a major cause of strife in this forum--some people think it's off limits and some people can't get past it.

As a person who grew up with mental illness in my immediate family, I agree with you that it's a disease and shouldn't sully his contribution to music. We could be having a similar conversation about Wagner, or Leni Riefenstahl, or Woody Allen, or Roman Polanski, or Jerry Lee Lewis.

Some people say the art is everything, some can't quite get there.
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« Reply #138 on: Oct 19, 2009, 09:56AM »

C'mon folks. Don't take this guy seriously. He is either consciously trolling here and performing a good imitation of a semi-illiterate, low IQ fanboy of some kind or...oh well, you can figure out the other option. Either way...why waste the energy?

S.

P.S. By the way. Just for the record, I personally think that Frank Rosolino was an amazingly gifted musician. He was a great player physically, a great player in terms of his ability to play inside of changes, and a total original on the instrument. And the same thing can be said about Carl Fontana. That said, I almost never, ever listen to their music...or the music of those who were most influenced by them...for the purposes of musical pleasure. Different strokes for different folks. Sue me.

This general lack of interest that I have in their playing is a quite natural and unconsidered one. When I was 14 and started listening seriously to jazz their playing simply did not particularly interest me and that was true for no apparent reason whatsoever. I was more attracted to the playing of other trombonists. Teagarden, Dorsey, Urbie, J.J. and Curtis Fuller particularly. Then I heard Jimmy Knepper (EUREKA!!!), discovered Bill Harris, Trummy Young and Tricky Sam Nanton, and ran into the whole latin thing with Barry Rogers, José Rodriques etc. Years later it began to occur to me exactly why those choices came about...it has to do with melodic line, rhythmic approach and variance of attack, the kinds of rhythm sections with which they all worked  (One way or another, relatively aggressive ones.) and above all, the timbre of a certain kind of projected sound.

So it goes.

If we are going to allow ourselves to be driven into discussions about musicians by their obsessed fanboys, let us at least discuss the music on some sort of real, articulate level. Of course Frank Rosolino and Carl Fontana played their asses off. But why is there a whole school of trombonists...a dominant school in terms of the last several generations of  jazz players...that doesn't really relate to their playing in terms of physical or conceptual approach?

There's a good topic!

P.P.S. Frank's tragic end? The world is a viciously stupid place on many levels, and the gifted among us are more sensitive to that stupidity than are most others. Some of them lose it. So it goes. Should we ignore Bird and Mozart because they essentially took themselves out? Do so at your own peril.
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« Reply #139 on: Oct 19, 2009, 10:56AM »

...
If we are going to allow ourselves to be driven into discussions about musicians by their obsessed fanboys, let us at least discuss the music on some sort of real, articulate level. Of course Frank Rosolino and Carl Fontana played their asses off. But why is there a whole school of trombonists...a dominant school in terms of the last several generations of  jazz players...that doesn't really relate to their playing in terms of physical or conceptual approach?

There's a good topic!
...

Indeed.  I really can't understand what that whole school of trombonists is thinking!   Evil

Really, I listen to and enjoy and learn from all the greats, but some appeal more than others.  That doesn't make a difference in greatness, though. 

Not all styles of the greats may be accessible to all ambitious players.  I find Frank's style impossible.  Ray Anderson's, too.  Among other greats.  Some styles are accessible, even to me.  It gives me great happiness to realize the style of a great player is ...  unh, unh, stretch! ... almost within reach.  Not quite, but I can see it pretty close!

It wakes me up in the morning.  That's good. 
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greg waits
« Reply #140 on: Oct 19, 2009, 11:14AM »


BTW Sabutin your an idiot, I bet your so called "young" players that you speak of dream of playing what Frank does. to quote you "I bet on it".


Okay now, this sort of name calling is not acceptable in the forum. Be nice.  >:(
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greg waits
« Reply #141 on: Oct 19, 2009, 11:17AM »

Say what you will about Frank, his playing, and the obviously tragic ending.  Here's Gloomy Sunday from Supersax's "Dynamite", recorded in Germany in the mid-70's.  Frank's playing continues to move me like few others in the jazz world, trombonist or others.

http://www.snapdrive.net/files/380186/06%20-%20Gloomy%20Sunday.mp3

RIP

Chip, that solo is one of the most emotionally moving of any instrumental solo - trombone or otherwise - that I ever heard. I remember hearing this the first time. I was almost moved to tears.

And the ironic thing is, he killed himself on a Sunday. :cry:
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« Reply #142 on: Oct 19, 2009, 01:07PM »

What can I say...I'm in a sharing mood today when it comes to Frank's music and spirit.  I hope you listen and enjoy.
Chip:
Thanks so much for taking the time to post these links. I poured a coffee, slapped the headphones into the 'puter and had a very nice morning. Thanks, too, for redirecting the topic to where it should have been all along!
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« Reply #143 on: Oct 19, 2009, 04:50PM »

Nice tracks.....you grow  by taking what you want from what is presented to you....this is "taste"....if it speaks to you, you keep it, if it doesn't resonate, you let it go....trying to please everyone/be pleased by everyone is pointless. It's nice to see people so passionate about certain players....better to become the player that people are passionate about tho....just sayin.
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« Reply #144 on: Oct 19, 2009, 09:03PM »

Nice tracks.....you grow  by taking what you want from what is presented to you....this is "taste"....if it speaks to you, you keep it, if it doesn't resonate, you let it go....trying to please everyone/be pleased by everyone is pointless.

Amen
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« Reply #145 on: Oct 19, 2009, 10:48PM »

Hey, it's good to read that people are back to listening to and considering Frank's playing.

Greg, I share your feelings about this track, and other ballads that caught Frank really singing.  When this goes into time maybe half way through, he's swinging so hard, his time and phrasing just hits me on every level.  I thank all ye bonistas on this thread for helping me rediscover a long lost friend in "Gloomy Sunday".

Sam, muy thanks for your insight, commentary, and probing questions for all of us to consider, yet again.  Your suggested topic would be solid for many reasons, especially considering elements of race, geographical style trends and tastes, the whole east vs. west thing that somehow continues to enter the jazz taste equation for whatever reasons, etc...I think there is actually a good DownBeat or JazzTimes or NPR level piece to be done on this at the right time, getting a round table together of various players from various "schools" to talk freely with each other about Frank, his playing, and his life. 

Picture a sit down with Slide Hampton, Curtis Fuller, Michael Dease, David Gibson, Sabutin, Steve Turre, Robin Eubanks, Michael Davis, Urbie Green, Conrad Herwig, Scott Whitfield, Andy Martin, Bob McChesney, Bill Watrous, John Fedchock, Bill Reichenbach, John Alred, Elliot Mason, Luis Bonilla....ok, stopping now....for example.

RIP
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« Reply #146 on: Oct 19, 2009, 10:50PM »

And off topic:

Anyone know how to get my email notification to work again?  I used to receive replies to my posts or watched threads by email, but this isn't working despite my best efforts.  Any help would be much appreciated.
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Chip Tingle
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« Reply #147 on: Oct 20, 2009, 04:59AM »

And off topic:

Anyone know how to get my email notification to work again?  I used to receive replies to my posts or watched threads by email, but this isn't working despite my best efforts.  Any help would be much appreciated.

It's a Forum infrastructure problem.  Sometimes it works, sometimes not.  Sometimes it's because you are trying to track too many threads.  Sometimes it's "spacemenz" (or maybe intervention from the Flying Spaghetti Monster) ;-)  I know Richard has looked into this in the past, but we haven't really seen an explanation or a fix.

Back to topic.
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« Reply #148 on: Jan 13, 2010, 07:46PM »

I'm not going to get into a discussion about whatever he did in his personal life,that is not our business here.

All I'm going to say here is that he was the trombonist whose playing clearly influenced my style as it has evolved.

Yeah,JJ and Watrous and Fontana influenced my playing,but Rosolino was and is the standard-bearer for how I play and what I listen to.

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« Reply #149 on: Jul 12, 2010, 02:47PM »

Just in my own humble opinion, I find his playing, at least on that clip, to be completely lacking in "soul" or "feeling", and also monumentally tedious. What IS the point of playing like that?
Try "Blues for Basie" from Buddy Rich Album,"This One's For Basie"./
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« Reply #150 on: Aug 08, 2010, 06:50PM »

Parris, while I can sympathize with your desire for accuracy regarding the circumstances of your father's death, I need to remind you that this topic is about Frank Rosolino's music.  We have encouraged people to focus on his musical legacy, or to allow others to do so, without sidetracking every discussion about him by delving into details of his death.  Perhaps you could allow the very positive musical discussion here, including posting of pointers to recordings and videos and discussions of style, to continue, and take the corrections to a different topic?  Perhaps the recently-started discussion of your Facebook page might be a good place?

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,52697.0.html
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« Reply #151 on: Jul 30, 2015, 01:03PM »

Wow. I am commenting so members who weren't on the forum at that time can read  it.

Long live frank. May his sublime and raw style live on.
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« Reply #152 on: Jul 30, 2015, 10:16PM »

Rosolino was a great player. But I feel he speaks at me with his playing not to me. He seems to play like he sings as most great players do. Are there players as good? Yes. Yes. Yes.

Now Big "T" speaks to me. His playing and his singing. Seems the longer I listen, the more I learn from him. Even the band that he plays with has that same conversational style that resonates with me.

Take a listen - really listen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9udjEXDpAg

Intro solo... singing... exiting solo (muted)... Yes.

Rosolino was a great player. Those who like him the best will like  him the best. Those who don't... won't. That is ok! Be glad that your favorite player plays in a way that speaks to you. And that you have the ability to appreciate it.
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« Reply #153 on: Aug 04, 2015, 06:59AM »

Parris, while I can sympathize with your desire for accuracy regarding the circumstances of your father's death, I need to remind you that this topic is about Frank Rosolino's music.  We have encouraged people to focus on his musical legacy, or to allow others to do so, without sidetracking every discussion about him by delving into details of his death.  Perhaps you could allow the very positive musical discussion here, including posting of pointers to recordings and videos and discussions of style, to continue, and take the corrections to a different topic?  Perhaps the recently-started discussion of your Facebook page might be a good place?

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,52697.0.html

News flash: Frank Rosolino was not Parris' father. He was married to her mother but he never adopted her. She changed her last name to Rosolino sometime after his death.
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« Reply #154 on: Aug 11, 2015, 01:59PM »

Who knows?

It always made me kinda nervous to hear it, that's for sure. Really. The reason that I so prefer the styles of people like Teagarden, Dorsey, Trummy Young, Urbie, J.J. and Jimmy Knepper to those of say Rosolino and Fontana is because of the relatively uninterrupted elegance and cleanliness of the former's lines. Even when they DID play embellishments, it was somehow integral to the melody and unexpected rather than a repeated interjection like someone saying "Y'know what I mean?" 20 times a sentence.

[...]

When I hear that hiccup thing, I just turn off. Always have. I do not care HOW difficult it is. It's still a hiccup.


Amen;  there's a Teagarden recording, might be "Saints," where he plays this amazing lip slur across 4 partials at a blistering pace, in good time, in tune, and the effect in amazing, but I never heard him play anything like that ever again, so he could play all sorts of incredibly technical things, but chose not to.

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« Reply #155 on: Sep 25, 2016, 02:36PM »

75 people here think they play better that Rosolino.  You guys' egos are worse than trumpet players!
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« Reply #156 on: Sep 25, 2016, 02:41PM »

75 people here think they play better that Rosolino.  You guys' egos are worse than trumpet players!

Wait ... what?  No they don't.  75 people here think that there are trombone players who play as well or better than Rosolino.  There may be those who include themselves in that august group, but that wasn't an option in the poll.
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« Reply #157 on: Sep 25, 2016, 02:42PM »

75 people here think they play better that Rosolino.  You guys' egos are worse than trumpet players!
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« Reply #158 on: Sep 25, 2016, 03:05PM »

I voted no because I was curious to what the percentage was.

But after a certain point, the whole 'who is best' argument is absurd. Jazz improv isn't a sporting event where medals are handed out. Frank played what Frank heard. The same with Carl, Slide, Urbie, Watrous, Al Grey...the list goes on and on.

he certainly is among the top of players who have influenced other players.
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« Reply #159 on: Sep 25, 2016, 03:13PM »

I voted no because I was curious to what the percentage was.

But after a certain point, the whole 'who is best' argument is absurd. Jazz improv isn't a sporting event where medals are handed out. Frank played what Frank heard. The same with Carl, Slide, Urbie, Watrous, Al Grey...the list goes on and on.

he certainly is among the top of players who have influenced other players.
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« Reply #160 on: Sep 25, 2016, 04:15PM »

I voted yes because there are many superb jazz trombonists. Not better, not worse. Just different. And Ros was certainly different... Can't choose between chocolate cake and fillet steak and strawberries. All are great. It just depends what you fancy.

There are no sacred cows for me, and I hear things in the big names' playing that I wouldn't want to hear in mine. I try to assimilate the good and guard against the bad, eventually becoming an amalgamation of all the bits I like best. Or that's the plan, anyway. Plus maybe a little bit of something original from me that is my recognisable fingerprint. I probably couldn't hear it myself: it'd have to be pointed out to me by someone who's heard me play a lot.

Regarding the events at the end of Frank Rosolino's life, it's the old debate about mad versus bad. I don't believe he did it out of wickedness, cackling like some evil mastermind, or coldblooded like a sociopath. Neither fits with the personality of the man. I'm not the most sentimental and sympathetic person you'll ever meet, but I do pity anyone in such anguish and turmoil that killing your family and then yourself enters your mind as a possible course.
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« Reply #161 on: Sep 25, 2016, 05:01PM »

75 people here think they play better that Rosolino.  You guys' egos are worse than trumpet players!

I think you're misreading the poll question. It's meant literally--Do you believe that anyone plays as well as Rosolino?

It's not meant in the colloquial sense--'Can you play as well as Rosolino?"

In other words, it's the difference between asking, "Did anyone hit as well as Ruth" as opposed to "Does anyone have a light?"

If you misread the first question, you'll answer, 'No, I don't hit at all.' If you misread the second, you'll say, "I'm sure someone has a light--there are billions of people on the earth." Context is everything.

I don't think the people answering 'yes' were claiming that they themselves outplay Rosolino, except maybe lately.
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« Reply #162 on: Nov 29, 2016, 02:20PM »

Nobody even comes close to him
I like listening to Wycliffe Gordon too though
But Rosolino was one of a kind, unique
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« Reply #163 on: Nov 29, 2016, 02:47PM »

> Nobody even comes close to him

> But ______________ was one of a kind, unique


But these statements are true for countless players!  Scores and scores of players over the years.
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« Reply #164 on: Apr 02, 2017, 12:40PM »

There is a standard set among jazz musicians that is a rank of sorts. Coltrane bird pops miles cllifford brown Freddy Hubbard woody Shaw  dexter Gordon bud Powell art tatum Roy Eldridge dizzy Lester young Coleman Hawkins and many more. These are the great innovators. As far as trombononist , the cats who played with them are jj curtis slide Teagarden trummy Bennie green . The over reaching factor here is the unknowable factor of artistic integrity. What is this? The music comes first and the technique is an afterthought. I couldn't imagine Teagarden playing with pops and suddenly going off on a barrage of of stupid trombone tricks.jj played with miles and it fit perfectly. Bennie green also played with miles and likewise . Curtis played with bud Powell.  Slide with dexter and so on. This also applies to classical players. Lewis van Haney and Gordon pullis had subtle nuances in their playing that separated them from the others . Their choices in solos tended towards music by real composers i.e. Bach etc. Ralph sauer comes to mind in this genre. Back to jazz and rosolino. Sure he's a unique voice and a great player. Sometimes the technique gets in the way of the music. Perhaps if he were around more of the more mainstream jazzers instead of the west coast crowd , he would have played differently?? Anyway , I don't listen to Frank anymore just like I'd rather listen to Ralph sauer perform the Bach cello suites instead of a technician playing blue bells . Real music moves everyone emotionally
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« Reply #165 on: Apr 04, 2017, 07:02AM »

Referring to Rosolino's playing as "stupid trombone tricks" is a little extreme imo. He played what he felt.
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« Reply #166 on: Apr 04, 2017, 07:15AM »

I admire Rosolino for his technical ability, and he was definately a unique player.  I enjoy listening to a lot of different players, and have my own personal favorite (JJ), but I hesitate to say anyone is the Best or Greatest at an endeavor.  Music is such a subjective subject, and what I think is great the next guy might not like at all.  Lots of great players out there doing very creative things on the instrument, I think it's impossible to single out one player and say he is the all around greatest!!
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« Reply #167 on: Apr 04, 2017, 08:36AM »

I admire Rosolino for his technical ability, and he was definately a unique player.  I enjoy listening to a lot of different players, and have my own personal favorite (JJ), but I hesitate to say anyone is the Best or Greatest at an endeavor.  Music is such a subjective subject, and what I think is great the next guy might not like at all.  Lots of great players out there doing very creative things on the instrument, I think it's impossible to single out one player and say he is the all around greatest!!

Well stated. Music (and arts in general) is not a sporting event where medals are awarded.

Thank God for the variety of styles that players have. I can't imagine everyone playing the same way.
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