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Author Topic: Looking For A Good Jazz Trombone  (Read 29309 times)
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nickrex37
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« on: Feb 09, 2008, 05:20PM »

I am a freshman in college and have a huge interest in jazz. Right now i use a Conn 88HO for wind ensemble/orchestra. So al of the classical stuff that isnt so demanding of range i use the concert horn for. Well in jazz i play lead and i use a King student model thats a few years old. I talked to my director about it and he said that a pro horn might help you in a lot of ways. I researched jazz horns and talked to them with my lesson teacher. Horns that i am mainly deciding on at the moment are the King 2B, Bach 16m (One that Bill Watrous uses I believe), and the Edwards jazz model. The Edwards seems a little overwhelming with all the options available, but it might be worth it. I am just curious if anyone can shed any light about which one of these horns is the best for lead playing and if theres a better model i would be happy to hear about that too.
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« Reply #1 on: Feb 09, 2008, 05:25PM »

Send DJ Kennedy a private message here on the forum.  I recently purchased a '62 King 3B from DJ.  It's a great horn.  He could definitely help you find a great horn, too.
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« Reply #2 on: Feb 09, 2008, 05:58PM »

That's quite a variety of different "jazz" horns you picked.

The King 2B is a small dual-bore (.481/.491"), the Bach 16M is a .508" bore, and the Eddie is normally 0.500 or 0.508" bore.  They also command many different prices.

So the first question is, what is the student King doing to your playing (or not doing for your playing?  Is it just "shot" (i.e. lots of dents, horribly mangled slide, etc.)?  Would fixing up the student horn allow you to play better?  I should point out that the King Clevelands (605 nowadays) were often used in big bands.  If you have a Tempo (curved bell brace) you have something that is actually as good as most "jazz" trombones.

Have you actually tried any of the models you listed?  I'd hate to see you spend a lot of money for a fancy Eddie or Shires and discover that a much less expensive Conn 6H or Holton 65 would have done the job as well.  Do you have any appreciation about the different small bore sizes?  Lots of symphony players who grab a King 2B feel like the horn is blowing back at them because it is so small compared to what they are used to.  You may even feel that way with a 3B or Bach 16M.  A .525" horn like a Bach 36 or King 3B+ may actually be more comfortable.

If you do a search on "Jazz Horn" I'd bet you will find half a dozen identical discussions to what you are asking for.  Do a little research.

As for price, I'd bet DJ Kennedy will give you the best price, but you have to help him help you by figuring out more-or-less what you are looking for.  There are quite a few quality models of small bore trombones besides just King/Bach/Conn/Yamaha and you may find that something you never heard of before is everything you ever wanted.  Ever hear of Martin?  The Committee is a great lead horn.  So is the Olds Recording.  So is the Holton 65 or the Stratodyne.

Don't buy a horn just because Player X plays it.  It might be great for him, but you are different and the best horn for you might be something else.

Good luck in your quest.


What is your problem trying to play a lot of lead trombone?
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« Reply #3 on: Feb 09, 2008, 06:31PM »

how  powerful    is the trumpet section ?????????
-------------
and  are  you doing  any  combos???????



I am a freshman in college and have a huge interest in jazz. Right now i use a Conn 88HO for wind ensemble/orchestra. So al of the classical stuff that isnt so demanding of range i use the concert horn for. Well in jazz i play lead and i use a King student model thats a few years old. I talked to my director about it and he said that a pro horn might help you in a lot of ways. I researched jazz horns and talked to them with my lesson teacher. Horns that i am mainly deciding on at the moment are the King 2B, Bach 16m (One that Bill Watrous uses I believe), and the Edwards jazz model. The Edwards seems a little overwhelming with all the options available, but it might be worth it. I am just curious if anyone can shed any light about which one of these horns is the best for lead playing and if theres a better model i would be happy to hear about that too.
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nickrex37
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« Reply #4 on: Feb 10, 2008, 12:54PM »

Well i dont have really any serious problems playing lead i just would like something that produces a better jazz sound and something that will perform well in the extreme upper register. I play in a combo as well as the jazz ensemble if that helps.
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nickrex37
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« Reply #5 on: Feb 10, 2008, 01:20PM »

To respond to BGuttman's statement: Don't buy a horn just because Player X plays it.  It might be great for him, but you are different and the best horn for you might be something else.

I understand that. I guess its hard to not get sucked into, "Player X is amazing, it must be his horn." Im not trying to buy a horn exclusively on who has played it, seems that you can hear what a particular horn can do. I am open to just about anything. I think I would rather have a brand new horn even though that may be foolish. I am not n expert at this stuff at all. My King student model I use now is dented and has seen its rough times.
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« Reply #6 on: Feb 10, 2008, 02:11PM »

If you're thinking of buying a new jazz horn thats vastly different from your 88H and very easy to play, make sure you test a Yamaha 697Z Way cool
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« Reply #7 on: Feb 10, 2008, 03:07PM »

some  players  like  king  //bach
8 in bells   //7  1/2 
 500   508   or  sub  500
many  choices in these sizes 
 sometimes  a sound  concept  //idea
or  players  sound /style     is  a guide
-----------so you have
2b   and variations  3b
 bachs   12  16m  /other  bachs
conns  -100h  and vintage
edwards/shires   set up   in various configurations
 other  horns  //vintage //out of production  known  and unknown
--------
budgetary  considerations  may be  a factor  also

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« Reply #8 on: Apr 15, 2008, 11:03PM »

If you're thinking of buying a new jazz horn thats vastly different from your 88H and very easy to play, make sure you test a Yamaha 697Z Way cool

I play mostly on my Conn 88 (.525/.547), but when I want high or punch, my other horn is a Yamaha 697Z.  The Z continues to impress me. Sometimes I fear I'll hurt someone.  It takes whatever I put into it and turns it into clean sound.

Some of the parts I use it for really tickle my fancy and the first few notes out are LOUD and SHARP with gobs of snap and sizzle.  I quickly back down when the walls complain.  It is real easy to get plenty out of this horn and it seems to take too-much in stride. I suspect it is generic for jazz horn, but it sure works for me.
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« Reply #9 on: Apr 15, 2008, 11:31PM »

When you get a chance to try these horns, make sure you do it not only in one setting: IE, the back of a horn shop.  See if you can try it for a few days - play in big band, combo, play a lot on your own.  Sometimes is takes a while to get used to what the horn actually feels like.

A lot of people are going towards the big bore route (or big -er).  Slide Hampton said something to the effect: "When I was playing in the monday night vanguard orchestra, we all noticed (bass bone player) didn't have to warm up to have a good sound, it was there from the start."

Just food for thought.
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« Reply #10 on: Apr 16, 2008, 01:20AM »

Well i dont have really any serious problems playing lead i just would like something that produces a better jazz sound and something that will perform well in the extreme upper register. I play in a combo as well as the jazz ensemble if that helps.

Errrmmmm....

Are you *quite* sure you want to play in the extreme upper register?

I always think this cr..   sorry, stuff, should be left to the trumpets and saxes.

They have nothing better to do. Yeah, RIGHT.

Get yerself a King 3B and just play jazz!
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« Reply #11 on: Apr 16, 2008, 04:15AM »

Get yerself a King 3B and just play jazz!
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« Reply #12 on: Apr 16, 2008, 04:32AM »

I second the recommendation of DJ.  He'll hook you up.  You might even be able to try out a couple horns before buying.  My personal short list of horns to check out:  King 2B, 3B, Conn 6H, 10H, Shires, Rath, Yamaha 697z etc....
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« Reply #13 on: Apr 16, 2008, 05:32AM »

I'd like to put in a second for the 3B. I've still got my 88H from my freshman year in college, that would be 1965 (and yes, it's an Elkie), and it's a great horn but I've ordered a new King 3B with the silver bell. Music, like life, is a balance of compromises. I play jazz almost exclusively and the .508 bore of the 3B is, IMHO (my wife cautions me about saying that as she maintains that I've never had a "humble opinion"), a great compromise between the round openness of the larger bores and the flexibility and punch of the sub-500 horns. If I had to compromise further, it would be the 3B+ probably. I've never had a Yammerhammer to my lips so I can't comment on them. The Conn 6H is good as is the Bach 16. I've got a '50's vintage Reynolds here that is great despite the smell of the case. If you are a romantic, soulfull kind of person, and probably should be to pursue jazz, don't rule out the older horns. Olds, Reynolds, Martin, early Whites (ne King) may each offer you a great horn, one that has far more experience than you do  ;-), for a song. Just be demanding on the slide quality.

Are you playing a Remington mouthpiece on the 88H? If so you can possibly find a small shank Remington for the new horn. I've got one in my inventory but they are rare. Also the Conn 3 is very close to the Remmy. In fact it was the prototype for the Remington. Beware, however, as there are at least a couple of rim/cup sizes on the Conn 3. Alternatively, a Bach 6 1/2AL or Bach 9 are possible compromises.

I won't prattle on further but do consider the compromises from the almost vast pallet of choices available to you. Also remember as one sage put it here, "It ain't the horn but what's behind it that makes the music."

Bon Chance,
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« Reply #14 on: Apr 16, 2008, 11:24AM »

I  WAS   kind of  suprized last week
 a  kid  came  thru  w  parents  from  kentucky    going to  ku
next year
  i  had  gotten a 3b  all ready   to go
 and also had  a  2b  just come in
 both   2b 3b  are 70s loopy  engraving  era
  THIS  2B   BLEW FANTASTIC !!!!!!!!! 
monster  open  big  fat ez  blowing -WOW 
and  this was  compared to  lotsa horns  !!!!!!!!!
 =====
so i  took  a look test of  2  recent AARON CHANDLER /ACME rebuilt  2b  slides
  sure enough  one   ==BLOWS  BIG  ///the other   more normal  --which means  tighter  -the usual thing
----------
SO  NOW   WHAT I GOTTA DO TO THE  3B  ???????????????
--------
i am thinking  LEADPIPE   FOR SURE
---

 
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« Reply #15 on: Apr 16, 2008, 11:28AM »

Quote
Get yerself a King 3B and just play jazz!
Yeah baby....oh....and salsa too Way cool
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Anthony Cecena,
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« Reply #16 on: Apr 16, 2008, 01:23PM »

Well you have a number of options:

King:

2B/2102 - Similar to Dorsey's model, very small bore, great for upper register and lead playing, this is my jazz axe of choice, but again it personally works for me. Upside is if you need upper register lead playing you wont have a problem, but that's pretty much all it does, no place in a concert setting. USed by Tommy Dorsey and Kai Winding.

3B/2013 - The 3B is an all-purpose horn, it's what JJ used for most of his carrer. Solid choice it does what you need it to. USed by many players.

4B/2014 - If you want a horn that's "similar" to your 88H this is a good choice. Definitely lighter, but it gives a nice warm tone. This is the horn Slide Hampton uses, I've never played one, but this may be what your looking for.

Bach:

Bach 6 - Discontiuned but I know Dillon's has one sale in used horns. - Beautiful horn, if you can find one. Even smaller than the 2B, but terrific for lead playing and solo playing.

Bach 8 - Similar to the 6 but bigger.

Bach 12 - A fine horn, but all it is is bach's version of a 2B+.

Bach 16 - It's a dual bore horn so it plays a little different. Needs more air, has all the advantages and disadvantages from Bach. Not my cup of tea but I know plenty of people who use it with great success.

Martin:

Urbie Green model - Fine choice for lead and jazz playing, but could be a little hard to handle.

Conn:

4H (Plenty in Dillon's used) - A very nice horn, even though it is small. I've heard it compared to both the 2B and the Bach 6, solid choice.

100H - Conn's jazz horn, solid build.

Edwards,Shires,and Rath all make jazz horns, but they're all more expensive than your legit horn, I wouldn't invest the money unless jazz was my main thing.

Try an Olds ambassador too, student horn but solid.


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« Reply #17 on: Apr 16, 2008, 01:45PM »

Look for a good 6H. It keeps surprising me at the number of things it does really well.
 I think a good 6H is unsurpassed by any other 500 bore instrument. Even the Shires I recently tried was not as meaty in tone.
If you look at the list of horns I own, you will see that I have a large basis for comparison in the 500 bore department.
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« Reply #18 on: Apr 16, 2008, 08:31PM »

While opinions certainly vary-I can't imagine throwing down the bucks for a "boutique' horn for jazz. There are so many vintage horns that do a great job for a fraction of the price.And you can find one that suits your particular playing characteristics too. I had the chance to play a dynamite Reynolds Argenta today -Nickel Silver, medium large bore,81/2" bell- just a superb horn.I would think it would be just the ticket for someone who had spent most of their time on a symphonic,large bore tenor. A few other gems for a more complete contrast would be the 28H,38H,48H all Connstellations. 28H .484 bore with 71/2" bell. 38H (my horn) .500 bore with 71/2" bell and 48H-nickel silver .500 bore with 8" bell. Martin Committee- one of the best horns I've ever played and you can find them for peanuts on e-bay sometimes. Olds Super and Recording. And a couple of the old Conn dual bores . One of the biggest steals I've ever seen was a Holton 65 that my buddy got for next to nothin'.( I DID just acquire a nice 1961 38B Connstellation trumpet for my son for $250.00- but it wasn't on e-bay- it was an "attic" horn-literally. :))
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« Reply #19 on: Apr 16, 2008, 08:41PM »

There's SO many good horns out there.

Nobody's mentioned a 24H. It's a straight .485, blows like a .508 if you want to give it a little time on the low end.

Really extraordinary... but everybody gives you the fish-eye if you bring it in into some bigband situation.

****'em... The horn is unbelievable! Try one....

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Did you do your long tones today?
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