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Author Topic: Looking For A Good Jazz Trombone  (Read 29359 times)
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nickrex37
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« on: Feb 09, 2008, 05:20PM »

I am a freshman in college and have a huge interest in jazz. Right now i use a Conn 88HO for wind ensemble/orchestra. So al of the classical stuff that isnt so demanding of range i use the concert horn for. Well in jazz i play lead and i use a King student model thats a few years old. I talked to my director about it and he said that a pro horn might help you in a lot of ways. I researched jazz horns and talked to them with my lesson teacher. Horns that i am mainly deciding on at the moment are the King 2B, Bach 16m (One that Bill Watrous uses I believe), and the Edwards jazz model. The Edwards seems a little overwhelming with all the options available, but it might be worth it. I am just curious if anyone can shed any light about which one of these horns is the best for lead playing and if theres a better model i would be happy to hear about that too.
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« Reply #1 on: Feb 09, 2008, 05:25PM »

Send DJ Kennedy a private message here on the forum.  I recently purchased a '62 King 3B from DJ.  It's a great horn.  He could definitely help you find a great horn, too.
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« Reply #2 on: Feb 09, 2008, 05:58PM »

That's quite a variety of different "jazz" horns you picked.

The King 2B is a small dual-bore (.481/.491"), the Bach 16M is a .508" bore, and the Eddie is normally 0.500 or 0.508" bore.  They also command many different prices.

So the first question is, what is the student King doing to your playing (or not doing for your playing?  Is it just "shot" (i.e. lots of dents, horribly mangled slide, etc.)?  Would fixing up the student horn allow you to play better?  I should point out that the King Clevelands (605 nowadays) were often used in big bands.  If you have a Tempo (curved bell brace) you have something that is actually as good as most "jazz" trombones.

Have you actually tried any of the models you listed?  I'd hate to see you spend a lot of money for a fancy Eddie or Shires and discover that a much less expensive Conn 6H or Holton 65 would have done the job as well.  Do you have any appreciation about the different small bore sizes?  Lots of symphony players who grab a King 2B feel like the horn is blowing back at them because it is so small compared to what they are used to.  You may even feel that way with a 3B or Bach 16M.  A .525" horn like a Bach 36 or King 3B+ may actually be more comfortable.

If you do a search on "Jazz Horn" I'd bet you will find half a dozen identical discussions to what you are asking for.  Do a little research.

As for price, I'd bet DJ Kennedy will give you the best price, but you have to help him help you by figuring out more-or-less what you are looking for.  There are quite a few quality models of small bore trombones besides just King/Bach/Conn/Yamaha and you may find that something you never heard of before is everything you ever wanted.  Ever hear of Martin?  The Committee is a great lead horn.  So is the Olds Recording.  So is the Holton 65 or the Stratodyne.

Don't buy a horn just because Player X plays it.  It might be great for him, but you are different and the best horn for you might be something else.

Good luck in your quest.


What is your problem trying to play a lot of lead trombone?
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« Reply #3 on: Feb 09, 2008, 06:31PM »

how  powerful    is the trumpet section ?????????
-------------
and  are  you doing  any  combos???????



I am a freshman in college and have a huge interest in jazz. Right now i use a Conn 88HO for wind ensemble/orchestra. So al of the classical stuff that isnt so demanding of range i use the concert horn for. Well in jazz i play lead and i use a King student model thats a few years old. I talked to my director about it and he said that a pro horn might help you in a lot of ways. I researched jazz horns and talked to them with my lesson teacher. Horns that i am mainly deciding on at the moment are the King 2B, Bach 16m (One that Bill Watrous uses I believe), and the Edwards jazz model. The Edwards seems a little overwhelming with all the options available, but it might be worth it. I am just curious if anyone can shed any light about which one of these horns is the best for lead playing and if theres a better model i would be happy to hear about that too.
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« Reply #4 on: Feb 10, 2008, 12:54PM »

Well i dont have really any serious problems playing lead i just would like something that produces a better jazz sound and something that will perform well in the extreme upper register. I play in a combo as well as the jazz ensemble if that helps.
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« Reply #5 on: Feb 10, 2008, 01:20PM »

To respond to BGuttman's statement: Don't buy a horn just because Player X plays it.  It might be great for him, but you are different and the best horn for you might be something else.

I understand that. I guess its hard to not get sucked into, "Player X is amazing, it must be his horn." Im not trying to buy a horn exclusively on who has played it, seems that you can hear what a particular horn can do. I am open to just about anything. I think I would rather have a brand new horn even though that may be foolish. I am not n expert at this stuff at all. My King student model I use now is dented and has seen its rough times.
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« Reply #6 on: Feb 10, 2008, 02:11PM »

If you're thinking of buying a new jazz horn thats vastly different from your 88H and very easy to play, make sure you test a Yamaha 697Z Way cool
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« Reply #7 on: Feb 10, 2008, 03:07PM »

some  players  like  king  //bach
8 in bells   //7  1/2 
 500   508   or  sub  500
many  choices in these sizes 
 sometimes  a sound  concept  //idea
or  players  sound /style     is  a guide
-----------so you have
2b   and variations  3b
 bachs   12  16m  /other  bachs
conns  -100h  and vintage
edwards/shires   set up   in various configurations
 other  horns  //vintage //out of production  known  and unknown
--------
budgetary  considerations  may be  a factor  also

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« Reply #8 on: Apr 15, 2008, 11:03PM »

If you're thinking of buying a new jazz horn thats vastly different from your 88H and very easy to play, make sure you test a Yamaha 697Z Way cool

I play mostly on my Conn 88 (.525/.547), but when I want high or punch, my other horn is a Yamaha 697Z.  The Z continues to impress me. Sometimes I fear I'll hurt someone.  It takes whatever I put into it and turns it into clean sound.

Some of the parts I use it for really tickle my fancy and the first few notes out are LOUD and SHARP with gobs of snap and sizzle.  I quickly back down when the walls complain.  It is real easy to get plenty out of this horn and it seems to take too-much in stride. I suspect it is generic for jazz horn, but it sure works for me.
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« Reply #9 on: Apr 15, 2008, 11:31PM »

When you get a chance to try these horns, make sure you do it not only in one setting: IE, the back of a horn shop.  See if you can try it for a few days - play in big band, combo, play a lot on your own.  Sometimes is takes a while to get used to what the horn actually feels like.

A lot of people are going towards the big bore route (or big -er).  Slide Hampton said something to the effect: "When I was playing in the monday night vanguard orchestra, we all noticed (bass bone player) didn't have to warm up to have a good sound, it was there from the start."

Just food for thought.
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« Reply #10 on: Apr 16, 2008, 01:20AM »

Well i dont have really any serious problems playing lead i just would like something that produces a better jazz sound and something that will perform well in the extreme upper register. I play in a combo as well as the jazz ensemble if that helps.

Errrmmmm....

Are you *quite* sure you want to play in the extreme upper register?

I always think this cr..   sorry, stuff, should be left to the trumpets and saxes.

They have nothing better to do. Yeah, RIGHT.

Get yerself a King 3B and just play jazz!
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« Reply #11 on: Apr 16, 2008, 04:15AM »

Get yerself a King 3B and just play jazz!
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« Reply #12 on: Apr 16, 2008, 04:32AM »

I second the recommendation of DJ.  He'll hook you up.  You might even be able to try out a couple horns before buying.  My personal short list of horns to check out:  King 2B, 3B, Conn 6H, 10H, Shires, Rath, Yamaha 697z etc....
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« Reply #13 on: Apr 16, 2008, 05:32AM »

I'd like to put in a second for the 3B. I've still got my 88H from my freshman year in college, that would be 1965 (and yes, it's an Elkie), and it's a great horn but I've ordered a new King 3B with the silver bell. Music, like life, is a balance of compromises. I play jazz almost exclusively and the .508 bore of the 3B is, IMHO (my wife cautions me about saying that as she maintains that I've never had a "humble opinion"), a great compromise between the round openness of the larger bores and the flexibility and punch of the sub-500 horns. If I had to compromise further, it would be the 3B+ probably. I've never had a Yammerhammer to my lips so I can't comment on them. The Conn 6H is good as is the Bach 16. I've got a '50's vintage Reynolds here that is great despite the smell of the case. If you are a romantic, soulfull kind of person, and probably should be to pursue jazz, don't rule out the older horns. Olds, Reynolds, Martin, early Whites (ne King) may each offer you a great horn, one that has far more experience than you do  ;-), for a song. Just be demanding on the slide quality.

Are you playing a Remington mouthpiece on the 88H? If so you can possibly find a small shank Remington for the new horn. I've got one in my inventory but they are rare. Also the Conn 3 is very close to the Remmy. In fact it was the prototype for the Remington. Beware, however, as there are at least a couple of rim/cup sizes on the Conn 3. Alternatively, a Bach 6 1/2AL or Bach 9 are possible compromises.

I won't prattle on further but do consider the compromises from the almost vast pallet of choices available to you. Also remember as one sage put it here, "It ain't the horn but what's behind it that makes the music."

Bon Chance,
RD
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« Reply #14 on: Apr 16, 2008, 11:24AM »

I  WAS   kind of  suprized last week
 a  kid  came  thru  w  parents  from  kentucky    going to  ku
next year
  i  had  gotten a 3b  all ready   to go
 and also had  a  2b  just come in
 both   2b 3b  are 70s loopy  engraving  era
  THIS  2B   BLEW FANTASTIC !!!!!!!!! 
monster  open  big  fat ez  blowing -WOW 
and  this was  compared to  lotsa horns  !!!!!!!!!
 =====
so i  took  a look test of  2  recent AARON CHANDLER /ACME rebuilt  2b  slides
  sure enough  one   ==BLOWS  BIG  ///the other   more normal  --which means  tighter  -the usual thing
----------
SO  NOW   WHAT I GOTTA DO TO THE  3B  ???????????????
--------
i am thinking  LEADPIPE   FOR SURE
---

 
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« Reply #15 on: Apr 16, 2008, 11:28AM »

Quote
Get yerself a King 3B and just play jazz!
Yeah baby....oh....and salsa too Way cool
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« Reply #16 on: Apr 16, 2008, 01:23PM »

Well you have a number of options:

King:

2B/2102 - Similar to Dorsey's model, very small bore, great for upper register and lead playing, this is my jazz axe of choice, but again it personally works for me. Upside is if you need upper register lead playing you wont have a problem, but that's pretty much all it does, no place in a concert setting. USed by Tommy Dorsey and Kai Winding.

3B/2013 - The 3B is an all-purpose horn, it's what JJ used for most of his carrer. Solid choice it does what you need it to. USed by many players.

4B/2014 - If you want a horn that's "similar" to your 88H this is a good choice. Definitely lighter, but it gives a nice warm tone. This is the horn Slide Hampton uses, I've never played one, but this may be what your looking for.

Bach:

Bach 6 - Discontiuned but I know Dillon's has one sale in used horns. - Beautiful horn, if you can find one. Even smaller than the 2B, but terrific for lead playing and solo playing.

Bach 8 - Similar to the 6 but bigger.

Bach 12 - A fine horn, but all it is is bach's version of a 2B+.

Bach 16 - It's a dual bore horn so it plays a little different. Needs more air, has all the advantages and disadvantages from Bach. Not my cup of tea but I know plenty of people who use it with great success.

Martin:

Urbie Green model - Fine choice for lead and jazz playing, but could be a little hard to handle.

Conn:

4H (Plenty in Dillon's used) - A very nice horn, even though it is small. I've heard it compared to both the 2B and the Bach 6, solid choice.

100H - Conn's jazz horn, solid build.

Edwards,Shires,and Rath all make jazz horns, but they're all more expensive than your legit horn, I wouldn't invest the money unless jazz was my main thing.

Try an Olds ambassador too, student horn but solid.


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« Reply #17 on: Apr 16, 2008, 01:45PM »

Look for a good 6H. It keeps surprising me at the number of things it does really well.
 I think a good 6H is unsurpassed by any other 500 bore instrument. Even the Shires I recently tried was not as meaty in tone.
If you look at the list of horns I own, you will see that I have a large basis for comparison in the 500 bore department.
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« Reply #18 on: Apr 16, 2008, 08:31PM »

While opinions certainly vary-I can't imagine throwing down the bucks for a "boutique' horn for jazz. There are so many vintage horns that do a great job for a fraction of the price.And you can find one that suits your particular playing characteristics too. I had the chance to play a dynamite Reynolds Argenta today -Nickel Silver, medium large bore,81/2" bell- just a superb horn.I would think it would be just the ticket for someone who had spent most of their time on a symphonic,large bore tenor. A few other gems for a more complete contrast would be the 28H,38H,48H all Connstellations. 28H .484 bore with 71/2" bell. 38H (my horn) .500 bore with 71/2" bell and 48H-nickel silver .500 bore with 8" bell. Martin Committee- one of the best horns I've ever played and you can find them for peanuts on e-bay sometimes. Olds Super and Recording. And a couple of the old Conn dual bores . One of the biggest steals I've ever seen was a Holton 65 that my buddy got for next to nothin'.( I DID just acquire a nice 1961 38B Connstellation trumpet for my son for $250.00- but it wasn't on e-bay- it was an "attic" horn-literally. :))
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« Reply #19 on: Apr 16, 2008, 08:41PM »

There's SO many good horns out there.

Nobody's mentioned a 24H. It's a straight .485, blows like a .508 if you want to give it a little time on the low end.

Really extraordinary... but everybody gives you the fish-eye if you bring it in into some bigband situation.

****'em... The horn is unbelievable! Try one....

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« Reply #20 on: Apr 16, 2008, 09:06PM »

There's always a Bolero...
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« Reply #21 on: Apr 16, 2008, 09:07PM »

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the Getzen 3508 Custon Series. Dual bore: .500/.508. Interchangeable leadpipes with 3 included. These are said to be mainly Edwards horns in a stock configuration. I have one and find it to be a very well made and free blowing horn.
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« Reply #22 on: Apr 17, 2008, 01:32AM »

Who's your favorite Jazz trombonist???

Check out what they play!!!!!
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« Reply #23 on: Apr 17, 2008, 05:40AM »

Favorite, you say? Shirley you jest!  Idea! Anyone of any age and experience knows full well, JJ Rules.

Each truly great musician must display a genius. Glenn Miller put the saxes up front and wrote them into the lead. Dorsey took his single trombone - an instrument often considered for accompaniment only - to the front of the band and featured it. Bird invented bebop and died trying to make it popular. Other woodwinds and even valve horns found the abrupt syncopation of bebop could fit on their instrument but they took their lead from Bird. I always figured that sax players did all those wild scales and runs for the same reason that dogs lick their jewels: because they can. But JJ took the trombone, an instrument everybody thought was left behind by modern jazz, into that frantic style and made it sing.

There are many fine players who get all over the axe but JJ made the trombone an integral and important part of jazz after 1950. We were not just for dixieland anymore. He took us out of the tailgate and onto the jazz club stage. He, therefore, gets my vote, and my thanks.

For many years, he played the King 3B "Silversonic".

Thus endeth the rant,

RD
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« Reply #24 on: Apr 17, 2008, 06:35AM »

Martin:
Urbie Green model - Fine choice for lead and jazz playing, but could be a little hard to handle.

Can you expand on this statement a little?  Someone brought in one of these horns this week to ask me what it was.  I've never seen one in person before.

Doug
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« Reply #25 on: Apr 17, 2008, 06:52AM »

Favorite, you say? Shirley you jest!  Idea! Anyone of any age and experience knows full well, JJ Rules.


Thus endeth the rant,

RD

Then it be a King 3B for you B...........BopMAN........ ;-)

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« Reply #26 on: Apr 17, 2008, 06:59AM »

Right. Got me a 3B Silversonic on order ah'do. Less than a month to go.  ;-)

Cheers or Schuß as appropriate to location,
RD
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« Reply #27 on: Apr 17, 2008, 08:26AM »


For many years, he played the King 3B "Silversonic".
RD

Sorry.

Bad information.

JJ played a standard King 3B. (brass bell)
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« Reply #28 on: Apr 17, 2008, 08:45AM »

Sorry.

Bad information.

JJ played a standard King 3B. (brass bell)

Not completely bad information, though I wouldn't say he played it for many years, and probably not in his busiest recording years.
http://www.helmutkrebs.net/musik/JJDiscography/frontman/JJDiscogr_html_m38e4151f.jpg

((It's hard to tell in this particular picture, but it's definitely an HN White-era SilverSonic. The cover on my CD is much clearer))
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« Reply #29 on: Apr 17, 2008, 09:00AM »

the dudes   first  post  on this sub  was  feb  9th
 wondering if he  dug up  a  bone  yet 
 Yeah, RIGHT. Yeah, RIGHT. Yeah, RIGHT. Yeah, RIGHT.


I am a freshman in college and have a huge interest in jazz. Right now i use a Conn 88HO for wind ensemble/orchestra. So al of the classical stuff that isnt so demanding of range i use the concert horn for. Well in jazz i play lead and i use a King student model thats a few years old. I talked to my director about it and he said that a pro horn might help you in a lot of ways. I researched jazz horns and talked to them with my lesson teacher. Horns that i am mainly deciding on at the moment are the King 2B, Bach 16m (One that Bill Watrous uses I believe), and the Edwards jazz model. The Edwards seems a little overwhelming with all the options available, but it might be worth it. I am just curious if anyone can shed any light about which one of these horns is the best for lead playing and if theres a better model i would be happy to hear about that too.
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« Reply #30 on: Apr 17, 2008, 09:11AM »

Errrmmmm....

Are you *quite* sure you want to play in the extreme upper register?

I always think this cr..   sorry, stuff, should be left to the trumpets and saxes.

They have nothing better to do. Yeah, RIGHT.

Get yerself a King 3B and just play jazz!

One big, solid AMEN to that.  Trombones are instruments of the gods

until some tight-lipped trumpet player turns them into a slide trumpet.
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« Reply #31 on: Apr 17, 2008, 10:03AM »

Can you expand on this statement a little?  Someone brought in one of these horns this week to ask me what it was.  I've never seen one in person before.

Doug

At one time Martin Band Instrument was a major maker of Pro horns; mostly in the 1930s to 1950s.  There were several instruments at various times that were good small bore jazz horns:

1.  Dansant.
2.  Committee.
3.  Urbie Green (who happened to be part of the Committee that designed the Committee).

There was a "Handkraft" that meant it was more carefully made.
There was an Imperial that was the Pro line before these and became the Intermediate during the reign of the Dansant and Committee.

All three are good substitutes for a Conn 6H or Bach 12 (in between the 2B and 3B).  Given the age of most Martin trombones (except for the Urbie, which was made into the 1990s while Martin became part of Holton) you may find the slides need a little work.

I had a Committee that played very well.  I sold it because I had too many horns of this ilk, and the Imperial I was using for Dixieland worked better for that use.
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« Reply #32 on: Apr 17, 2008, 10:35AM »

A friend who collects brass instruments laid out a spread of his playable trombones for me once. Most were old, heavy brass horns, but two of them opened my eyes to a world of trombones beyond my student Yamaha.  A Conn 88 straight horn and a Martin trigger made sounds I didn't think could happen powered by my breath.  He would not sell me either one.

That was the day my horizons expanded. That was the moment I really began my development as a trombonist... not that I got really far, but I sure am enjoying my sound a whole bunch with horns that suit me.

Oh yeah, there was a point to this...   The Martin ....
I had never heard of them before, yet this horn really sung.  It had a beautiful voice. On a shelf, I wouldn't have given it a glance. 

After playing, I WANTED IT... but it was my friend's only trigger horn. Today he has others, but now I have one and that's all the triggers I want.
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« Reply #33 on: Apr 17, 2008, 11:07AM »

Oh, I do hope that this doesn't start a row but JJ did do a lot of playing on the 3B SS. King even made him one with a SS bell which was nitrited black and lacquered. The King logo was then re cut into the silver. It was a stunning axe as seen on one of JJs 60's albums "Goodies"



I think he ended his performing career on a Yamaha. His popularity in Japan was huge. The Japanese are into jazz and treat jazz greats like rock stars, or sumo stars, or baseball players - you get the picture.

Best,
RD
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« Reply #34 on: Apr 17, 2008, 12:36PM »

I was under the impression that J.J. played a 3b bell and 2b slide.
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« Reply #35 on: Apr 17, 2008, 01:31PM »

My friend and I determined that Urbie would have been just 12 years old when they started making Committee trombones. The name came from the trumpet which actually WAS a group effort with Foster Reynolds, Eldon Benge,Vincent Bach ,a forgotten Chicago Symphony member and Renold Shilke. Shilke would tell anyone in earshot that he was the main designer of the horn. When a trumpet came out under that name from Holton-Leblanc he approached Wallace Roney and said"Let me see what you've done to my trumpet." This came up about a year ago-that's why I looked up Urbies date of birth etc. Now the Holton-Leblanc made Martin Urbie Green certainly had a lot of input from the man whose name is on the horn.  :)They also had a Dave Steinmeyer model that was essentially the Urbie model with a half inch smaller bell. I played The Martin Urbie exclusively for about 6 years. Unfortunately I had two bad slide drops that rendered the horn unable to hold alignment. I gave it away to a promising player that was in a band that I called on in the fundraising business. That was after I got my 1980's 100H. So I had two horns in a row with the curved left hand brace.
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« Reply #36 on: Apr 26, 2008, 04:28PM »

Just save that $$$ for a 3B!

That's what I'm doing!!! :D
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« Reply #37 on: Apr 28, 2008, 05:21PM »

another vote for the ysl-697z.... if you've heard one u know what i mean..... i actually have one on order, but my local dealer thinks mines coming form japan so i wont see it for a while :p
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« Reply #38 on: Apr 29, 2008, 10:27AM »

I think he ended his performing career on a Yamaha. His popularity in Japan was huge. The Japanese are into jazz and treat jazz greats like rock stars, or sumo stars, or baseball players - you get the picture.

Best,
RD

The story I heard (and honestly we'll never know for sure what happened), is that JJ had his main King break and requested a new one.  King was feeling pretty cheap and told him he had to buy one.  Around the same time JJ had a friend who was dealing with Yamaha who was just starting making trombones.  Yamaha sent JJ a whole bunch of trombones, knowing that if he didn't like them he would at least give them to his friends.  JJ then finished his career on Yamahas.  Certainly says a lot about service!

Also if Nick is still reading this, definitely give DJ a visit.  I thought for sure that when I moved from my concert large bore to a Jazz horn that a 3b would be right for me.  After playing several horns at his house I fell in love with a Yamaha 697Z.  Tiny Bore, but very open blowing and LOUD!
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« Reply #39 on: Apr 29, 2008, 10:52AM »

I fell in love with a Yamaha 697Z.  Tiny Bore, but very open blowing and LOUD!

I found the same. My primary was and is the Conn 88 in .525/.547 and I thought it was ringing and singing pretty well. My 697Z really barks, without rattling. In places where I want to punch the phrases out, I have to hold 'er back a skosh or I'll hurt somebody.  The Z is very expressive.
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« Reply #40 on: Apr 29, 2008, 12:04PM »

Shires Bonezilla slide, .578/.590, square crook, straight gooseneck, 10 1/2in bell.

And a Schilke 61.

A good beginner horn.

I'm all for my 3B slide and Conn 5G bell, so a 3B or a 6H.
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« Reply #41 on: Apr 30, 2008, 08:18AM »

Shires Bonezilla slide, .578/.590, square crook, straight gooseneck, 10 1/2in bell.

That's huge...!  Never heard of a bore as big as that
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« Reply #42 on: Jul 29, 2008, 01:10PM »

Sorry I havent replied to this topic in awhile. I have read a lot of what everyone has said. A lot of people have said the King 3B is a good choice, but isnt that more of a nonlead horn. And i guess extreme upper register isnt completely important. I just want anything up to at least a High D to not sound strained. I want a horn thats pretty free blowing, and i really love the idea (never tried on) of a lightweight slide. I know a trombone is an investment you should cherish and not be unhappy with a year down the road. Old horns do have quite an allure to them, but i guess i dont want to be playing top dollar for an old whatever. It would scare me a little to play something twice my age honestly. I dont know if this helps but i really love my conn 88ho, i wish i could find that in miniature form with a lightweight slide.
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« Reply #43 on: Jul 29, 2008, 02:15PM »

Conn 6H with acme lightweight slide...?
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« Reply #44 on: Jul 29, 2008, 03:14PM »

Don't feel like you need a specific (in this case small) horn to play high notes. Maybe if your job is playing really high for a couple hours a night it'd be a little more comfortable... but plenty of players from many different backgrounds have shown if you practice a lot a D doesn't have to sound strained.
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« Reply #45 on: Jul 31, 2008, 12:25AM »

well my D doesnt really strained at the moment i just want a horn that can definitely make the note and above sound good. i dont really have a problem hitting an F most of the time and i can squeak out up to a really high C. not that squeaks are really much but yeah. ive done a fair amount of research and for lead horns it seems like a logical choice would be a King 2B are things along those lines. I mean there is the Bach 16 LT and the Getzen and Edwards models. There is a lot to choose from. I guess thats a good thing, but where would i be able to try a large range of horns?
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« Reply #46 on: Jul 31, 2008, 01:24AM »

Don't feel like you need a specific (in this case small) horn to play high notes. Maybe if your job is playing really high for a couple hours a night it'd be a little more comfortable... but plenty of players from many different backgrounds have shown if you practice a lot a D doesn't have to sound strained.

Better still though if you find a horn which allows you to play top D unstrained without practising.
Lets be honest here. Yes obviously practice helps. I can play better for longer when I practice but it IS easier to play lots of top D's (and for longer) on my Yamaha 697Z than my Conn 88H. The Z is also much brighter, lighter and cuts through an electric rhythm section more easily.
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« Reply #47 on: Jul 31, 2008, 02:07AM »

It would scare me a little to play something twice my age honestly.

Does that mean that when you're twice as old you won't be scared to play twice as old of a horn?

Go with the sound and fix the slide.
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« Reply #48 on: Jul 31, 2008, 12:41PM »

...it seems like a logical choice would be a King 2B are things along those lines. I mean there is the Bach 16 LT and the Getzen and Edwards models. There is a lot to choose from. I guess thats a good thing, but where would i be able to try a large range of horns?

I know it's a few hours away, but Dillon Music in New Jersey might be the biggest assortment available.  Or you can see what Hickey's has in stock (only about half as far) or maybe Volkwein's in Pittsburgh?

While we say you should try a bunch of different horns, don't get so diligent that you spend the rest of your life testing and never choose something because "ooh, the next one could be better".  It might, but not by much.  If you get something and start practicing you will adapt to the horn and make it your own (unless you hate the thing, in which case you shouldn't have bought it).

Also, I would tend to buy a slightly larger horn for jazz unless you KNOW you will only be playing 1st.  You will get gigs where you might have to play any part and a .500" or .508" horn will be a little better in the lower parts.  If you only will play 1st Trombone, you may not get a lot of gigs... :/
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« Reply #49 on: Jul 31, 2008, 04:01PM »

well my D doesnt really strained at the moment i just want a horn that can definitely make the note and above sound good. i dont really have a problem hitting an F most of the time and i can squeak out up to a really high C. not that squeaks are really much but yeah. ive done a fair amount of research and for lead horns it seems like a logical choice would be a King 2B are things along those lines. I mean there is the Bach 16 LT and the Getzen and Edwards models. There is a lot to choose from. I guess thats a good thing, but where would i be able to try a large range of horns?
I don't know how long you can wait for a horn, but the Eastern Trombone Workshop would be a GREAT place to try a bunch of different horns back to back.  It's kind of a long trip from PA, but you may end up with a horn you're more satisfied with in the long run, and get it for a great price.  Plus you'd get to see all of the rest of the awesome events taking place.  It's a long wait and a long trip, but it could be a good idea...
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« Reply #50 on: Jul 31, 2008, 10:55PM »

yeah thats a good point that i shouldnt be searching for the "holy grail" of trombones. i may never find it. it seems like lot of these places are a decent way away from me so maybe i will plan a trip. volkweins in pittsburgh  sadly does not have too many instruments (from what i have seen). and BGuttman's response about getting a bigger horn is a pretty good idea. i play 1st in college because i am the only major and some majors that play different instruments play 2nd, 3rd etc. I dont insist on playing first, i guess i was just looking at it from the perspective of prob another 3 years of college on 1st. I play 2nd all through high school so i dont have a fit if i dont play lead, doesnt really bother me. Maybe i should consider a King 3B? I still play Fs on my conn 88ho so a .508 shouldnt be too much of a problem. And from what I have researched the trombonist who played with maynard mostly used 3Bs to blend in and i imagine thats true with most big bands. In case if I do combo work a 3B would most likely blend better.
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« Reply #51 on: Aug 01, 2008, 07:35AM »

There is a universe of trombones out there that will do what you want and sound good doing it.

Find a couple and try them and select what works best for you.

The King 3B and its Bach cousin the 16M have been used as commercial and jazz horns for at least a half a century and are still going strong.  The Yamaha 691 is also in this size.

Or the slightly smaller horns work well also.  Lots of guys like Conn 6H.  Want a newer version?  Try a Kanstul 1606 (which is a Kanstul copy of a Williams copy of the 6H; both improved along the way).

Contact DJ Kennedy and see what he has stashed in his house(s).

Good luck.
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jmoore88
« Reply #52 on: Aug 01, 2008, 04:45PM »

Better still though if you find a horn which allows you to play top D unstrained without practising.
Lets be honest here. Yes obviously practice helps. I can play better for longer when I practice but it IS easier to play lots of top D's (and for longer) on my Yamaha 697Z than my Conn 88H. The Z is also much brighter, lighter and cuts through an electric rhythm section more easily.

Of course, I'm just suggesting to be open to horns that are a little bigger as well as the smaller ones. I have an old, tiny, King Tempo that I can play high notes on just fine, but it feels awful for me otherwise because of the way I play and the drastic difference between that and the large bore Shires that I spend most of my time playing. (and as BGuttman pointed out, a slightly larger horn is could be more logical for those of us who aren't necessarily going to only play lead in a big band for the rest of our lives) I'm not prejudice against playing small horns or anything, I just think that in some cases it may not be the best solution.

nickrex, If you can make it to the ETW it's an awesome place to try out a variety of setups and hear really awesome musicians. It's probably a 6 or so hour drive... if you can arrange it, definitely check it out!
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« Reply #53 on: Oct 06, 2017, 03:51PM »

There's SO many good horns out there.

Nobody's mentioned a 24H. It's a straight .485, blows like a .508 if you want to give it a little time on the low end.

Really extraordinary... but everybody gives you the fish-eye if you bring it in into some bigband situation.

****'em... The horn is unbelievable! Try one....



That is a WONDERFUL horn. I got a 1928 (first year) model for about $250 on eBay. It is gorgeous after getting a couple dents out, and the slide is great for the age. At University jazz ensemble, people are mind blown at how tiny it is, then astonished that it can scream and pop out a pedal f with equal finesse and the same velvety full tone...on a 12c. I have no issue on lead blending with my setion, who all play .547 or bass. People get too hung up on horn characteristics and model. Size/material/weight don't matter as much as the horn itself. There's my 3 cents.
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« Reply #54 on: Oct 06, 2017, 07:07PM »

Wow,did a nine year old thread just get responded to?
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« Reply #55 on: Oct 09, 2017, 09:51AM »

 
================GIANT STEPS ========
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« Reply #56 on: Oct 10, 2017, 07:40PM »

Old post notwithstanding, I recently obtained a 1936 silver  24h in nice condition. Great slide. Small bell. The horn is pretty heavy for its size, but it plays great. I'm subbing on lead in a big band for a Dec concert. They are used to a 36b on lead. The rest of the section is 6h, 78h,73h. So I think the 24h will fit fine with that.
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« Reply #57 on: Oct 10, 2017, 07:50PM »

Old post notwithstanding, I recently obtained a 1936 silver  24h in nice condition. Great slide. Small bell. The horn is pretty heavy for its size, but it plays great. I'm subbing on lead in a big band for a Dec concert. They are used to a 36b on lead. The rest of the section is 6h, 78h,73h. So I think the 24h will fit fine with that.

How does it play in comparison to, for example, a Yamaha 354 in your opinion?
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« Reply #58 on: Oct 16, 2017, 06:17AM »

HEAVY  SUPER SOLID  ---VERY COMFORTABLE===DELUXE  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  and beautiful  !!!!!!!! Pant Pant Pant Pant


Old post notwithstanding, I recently obtained a 1936 silver  24h in nice condition. Great slide. Small bell. The horn is pretty heavy for its size, but it plays great. I'm subbing on lead in a big band for a Dec concert. They are used to a 36b on lead. The rest of the section is 6h, 78h,73h. So I think the 24h will fit fine with that.
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« Reply #59 on: Oct 16, 2017, 06:52AM »

How does it play in comparison to, for example, a Yamaha 354 in your opinion?
I've never played a Yamaha 354, so I don't know. I'd expect the 24h to be a bit heavier, though. It's a much older horn, I think the slide is narrower on the 24h, and the bell smaller, so the articulations might be faster. From what I read the 354 is nothing to sneeze at. I have a 651 which is nice, but somewhat... one dimensional in comparison. I don't mean that to disparage the Yamaha. I really like the horn. It has a much simpler sound. That has been true of most of the Yamahas I've played. Even with a red bell, the 651 is still kind of one dimensional. I had a 691 as well that was similar, but bigger bore with a yellow bell. Played great, sounded great, but the sound was different. Not as warm as a Conn. Maybe a little brighter, definitely not as much going on within the sound.
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« Reply #60 on: Oct 17, 2017, 02:46PM »

Conn 6H with acme lightweight slide...?

What's an Acme lightweight slide? I have a nice '56 6H with plating damage on the inners (not just worn, but peeling a little). Are there aftermarket slides that would work?
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« Reply #61 on: Oct 22, 2017, 04:43AM »

sleeves removed  //often  leadpipe removed   //sometimes ARCH GRIP 
/////// 100H  SLIDE  ///GETZEN 351///CONN  DIRECTOR  22  23H


What's an Acme lightweight slide? I have a nice '56 6H with plating damage on the inners (not just worn, but peeling a little). Are there aftermarket slides that would work?
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