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Author Topic: gold or yellow brass bell  (Read 5104 times)
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roadyrod

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« on: Aug 27, 2008, 01:58AM »

Hello everybody

I think to change my bone for a king 3B or similar. I see the 3b with gold brass bell or yellow brass bell. Whats are the difference for the sound of these 2 options ?

Thanks
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jaws241
« Reply #1 on: Aug 27, 2008, 05:36AM »

a yellow brass 3b will (generally) have a brighter sound.

Gold brass will be darker, easier to color.

I'd say go with the gold brass bell, having a bad experience with a yellow brass bell, and just because gold brass is better.  :D
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WaltTrombone
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« Reply #2 on: Aug 27, 2008, 05:39AM »

We can only give you a rough idea, since they don't always play the same way for everyone. My experience with gold brass bells is that they sound just a little darker, mellower compared to yellow brass. Sometimes the gold brass can sound brighter and harsher when played really loud. Gold brass also tends to respond a little slower on attacks.
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Walter Barrett
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Jason8844
« Reply #3 on: Aug 27, 2008, 11:44AM »

My vote is for the yellow brass. Its the best all around in my opinion. I may be wrong but most of the gigs you will play a 3B with you will most likely be playing with guys with yellow brass bells too. I agree with what was posted before, the gold brass does break up at a lower dynamic level. Plus, the yellow brass looks better all unlaquered and tarnished up.  Amazed
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Emre Kayhan

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« Reply #4 on: Aug 27, 2008, 01:32PM »

I don't think you are into how it looks. At the end of the day it's a brass horn.

Anyway, generally the gold bell has darker sound than the yellow. But the yellow bell has more character in the sound for me. I would go for the yellow. But before buying it I recommend you to try out the sterling silver bell. As many of the jazz and allround players prefer Sterling Silver, which is the best of all the bells I think.

For the conclusion, no one in this forum can tell you to choose this or that. You are the one who will blow it and see which one fits for you.

Best.
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Emre Kayhan

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roadyrod

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« Reply #5 on: Aug 30, 2008, 01:42AM »

Thanks for all this answers.

I will think about it. But I haven't the possibility to try horns where I am  :cry:
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JMan

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« Reply #6 on: Aug 30, 2008, 11:04AM »

Just as everyone else has pointed out Gold Brass gives a slightly darker yet rounder tone than yellow brass.  But the level of darkness is different for every player.  You said there's no way that you would be able to go and try horns?  Even if its a different make than what you are searching for I highly encourage you to try out both metals before purchasing a horn.   :)
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Justin McSherry, S.E. Shires
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BGuttman
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« Reply #7 on: Aug 30, 2008, 11:42AM »

Wanna know a deep dark secret?

For most of us it doesn't matter!  You will learn to make YOUR sound on whatever you buy.  You will acclimate to the particular characteristics of your horn.

I have always had a preference for the appearance of gold brass.  So I buy horns with gold brass bells.  I have adapted my playing style so that I sound like me on them.

So don't fret.  Buying the "wrong" version at an early stage of playing won't matter a hill of beans.  It won't be "geez, when I play the yellow brass I sound wonderful but that gold brass sounds like a sock in the bell."  Side by side you may hear a difference, but by itself you probably wouldn't.  When you get to be as good as some of the big pro's here, you will also be closer to places where you can play test every kind of horn and choose what sounds best to you.

Buy something and practice.  You'll be fine.
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Bruce Guttman
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JMan

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« Reply #8 on: Aug 30, 2008, 12:47PM »

"For most of us it doesn't matter!  You will learn to make YOUR sound on whatever you buy.  You will acclimate to the particular characteristics of your horn."

Bruce, I agree with you to a certain extent.  The player defines the horn rather than the horn defining the player.  But at the same time the horn does matter. The bell makes a big difference in regard to the tone of the instrument.  Yes, they player can minipulate the tone to his/her own liking, but it still makes a difference.  For example when I was building my Shires even a different metal tuning slide completely altered the sound of the horn. 

I think that you should try to find some friends maybe that have horns with gold and yellow brass bells and try them out to see which better compliments your playing.  Also, the type of bell material also has to do on what kind of playing you do.  If you are a Marching Band person you would want to invest in a yellow brass bell, however if you are more of a symphonic/orchestral player then you want to conisder getting a gold brass or rose brass bell. 
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Justin McSherry, S.E. Shires
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« Reply #9 on: Aug 30, 2008, 01:11PM »

Justin, I think when you finish your degree (are you majoring in music?) you might want to go back to Shires and see just how many of the parts you so judiciously chose need to be replaced because you sound better on something else.  Not intending to slam you in any way, but you are going to change as you develop.  We all change.  So you really shouldn't get so hung up about materials.

For Marching Band, any cheap horn works OK.  Nobody's going to hear the difference between a yellow brass bell or a gold brass bell at 100 yards and playing blastissimo.  I doubt many of these Band Directors who are so careful to match the instruments and buy some very expensive hardware can even hear the difference.  Only important thing about a horn for Marching Band is it has to be durable (thus eliminating most of the Chinese horns).  The other thing I'd suggest is you not use a friction instrument on the field; too easy to fall apart.

Nowhere is it written that you have to use metal A for Jazz and metal B for symphonic.  The Conn 6H and Bach trombones tended to be yellow brass bell.  The older King 2B and 3B trombones had gold brass bells.  And they sounded pretty good together.  Sure, Glenn Miller had matching Bach 8s.  Dorsey's boys all played Kings.  But here we are talking about a pretty elite bunch of players.  If you look at the old Lawrence Welk sections, they are playing different makes of horn and they still sound great together.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #10 on: Aug 30, 2008, 01:28PM »

Bruce, yes I am a music major.  Don't get me wrong I'm not saying the horn is everything, but it is important to get a horn that compliments your playing and the style you most commonly play.  But I truly believe the trombone is nothing without the player.  They player makes the horn, not vise-versa. 

Yes no one will hear the difference when your playing in Marching Band at blatissmo.  hahaha I agree 100%.  I was just pointing out the different horns I most commonly see in the many different ensembles I play in-hoping that it will help our friend here decide which metal is better for his playing. 

This is just one trombone players opinion on how to select the metal for the horn.

Roadyrod, what horn were you thinking of trading in your current horn for?
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Justin McSherry, S.E. Shires
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« Reply #11 on: Aug 30, 2008, 01:29PM »

Every time I read a thread like this I ask myself.

Do the people who are so explicit about how different bits and pieces make a horn sound differently actually do a double blind test???

I have a few times and usually unless the player and/or observers are VERY discerning the differences in tone and timbre of bell materials are a lot less than you might think.

You can actually see people get confused as to which horn is which. The more they play them the more the adapt and finally there's no real stand out.

Now that's not to say there are no differences, I know some horns slot better than others as well as have better partial alignment and the like. But material differences, maybe not so much in my opinion.


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BGuttman
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« Reply #12 on: Aug 30, 2008, 01:34PM »

Hello everybody

I think to change my bone for a king 3B or similar. I see the 3b with gold brass bell or yellow brass bell. Whats are the difference for the sound of these 2 options ?

Thanks

1st post of the thread.  He wants to know if he should go for a 3B Yellow or a 3B Gold.

I think he should choose whatever he thinks he likes.
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Bruce Guttman
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JMan

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« Reply #13 on: Aug 30, 2008, 01:52PM »


Do the people who are so explicit about how different bits and pieces make a horn sound differently actually do a double blind test???


I think double blind tests are the best way to decide on parts and materials for horns. I know a lot of people that go into a shop to build there trombone(s) and they have think they have decided what they want before they actually play the horn.  I was that way with my horn but then I got the shop owner to do a double blind test.  And I was shocked at what the final combo was that best fit my playing. 

This brings me around to my final point.  Before you invest in another horn, Roadyrod, play each and decide solely on how it fits your playing not based on anything we have all said on here because when it comes down to it your the one that play's it!  I know you said that its hard to find a place out where your at to try horns, but try friends or anyone you know that has the metal types even if their horn isn't a 3B or an equivalent.
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Justin McSherry, S.E. Shires
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« Reply #14 on: Aug 31, 2008, 01:22PM »

I don't want to send this thread in a different direction.......but why do players put so much emphasis on the bell ?

The changes from different bell materials can be very subtle. Changing the mouthpiece you use will have a far bigger effect on tone and projection. Even a leadpipe can make a bigger change than the bell.

Regardless of choosing a yellow 3b or a gold one, I think the right mouthpiece can help make either one as dark or as bright as the other.
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JMan

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« Reply #15 on: Aug 31, 2008, 02:16PM »

I personally put a big emphasis on the bell material because in my own playing it makes a big difference in my sound.  To some players they don't notice that big a difference in my own.  I switched off lots of bells (yellow, gold and rose).  They all were different and the changes were very noticeable. I finally settled on the Rose after a blind test. 

Alex, I agree the mouthpiece also changes your sound a lot too.
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Justin McSherry, S.E. Shires
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roadyrod

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« Reply #16 on: Sep 01, 2008, 05:44AM »

Hello,

I'm sorry I don't understand everything...
For Marching Band, any cheap horn works OK. The other thing I'd suggest is you not use a friction instrument on the field; too easy to fall apart.
I don't understand this sentence... What's meen friction instrument ? You suggest me to play on a valve bone ?

To try is a real problem. Even in big shops in Paris (like woodbrass : french wwbw) they only have symphonic model to try. Just a few jazz trombones at a price....unbeliviable ! And there are few trombonists in my region, and they're mostly classical musicians...

I've been the chance to quicly try an old king, probably a 3B. It seems to have a gold bell. And I don't think it's it have a big influence but the sound will be great !

In fine my choice is make, and no questions about yellow or gold because i'll purchase a 691 to DJ Kennedy  :)
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BGuttman
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« Reply #17 on: Sep 01, 2008, 07:38AM »

Roady, old trombones (generally more than 75 years old) did not have a nut to hold the bell and slide sections together.  These are referred to as "friction fit" trombones.  Problem is, they can separate at the oddest times.  It's worst if you are in a parade where you have to watch for road hazards, play the music, and try to keep in step with the rest of the band.

I would guess that a 3B or a 691 would be an excellent choice.  Both are great horns for Jazz and for the higher parts in Concert Band.

Good luck (Bonne Chance?)
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #18 on: Sep 01, 2008, 09:24AM »

Hello,

I'm sorry I don't understand everything... I don't understand this sentence... What's meen friction instrument ? You suggest me to play on a valve bone ?

To try is a real problem. Even in big shops in Paris (like woodbrass : french wwbw) they only have symphonic model to try. Just a few jazz trombones at a price....unbeliviable ! And there are few trombonists in my region, and they're mostly classical musicians...

I've been the chance to quicly try an old king, probably a 3B. It seems to have a gold bell. And I don't think it's it have a big influence but the sound will be great !

In fine my choice is make, and no questions about yellow or gold because i'll purchase a 691 to DJ Kennedy  :)

691's are really good horns - underrated in some circles......
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roadyrod

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« Reply #19 on: Sep 03, 2008, 12:56PM »

Ok i was totally out in fact !!  :D

I never see a friction trombone but i'm happy to know this ! I'll be carefull on this.
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