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Author Topic: Open wrap? Closed wrap?  (Read 17121 times)
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« on: Mar 17, 2009, 10:29PM »

Trombones are always described as open wrap or closed wrap.
What are the differences between them?
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« Reply #1 on: Mar 17, 2009, 10:56PM »

Closed wrap-


Open Wrap-


It's how the F attachment tubing is arranged.
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« Reply #2 on: Mar 18, 2009, 06:32AM »

Thanks a lot/ :)
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« Reply #3 on: Mar 18, 2009, 06:39AM »

To go a step deeper here however, there's another important consideration: the angle at which the ports come out of the valve.

Steve Shires, Gary Greenhoe, and Christan Griego and the team at Edwards that designed the new Alessi model all maintain the 90-degree or less angles of the valve ports you see in the Bach closed wrap photo above. Experimentation has led them all to the conclusion that open wrap is good, but open wrap without a tight, 180-degree turn as the valve tubing comes back to the open horn (as in the Bach open wrap in the lower photo) is much, much better.

I've never bothered to learn how to post photos here, but they are all readily available.
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« Reply #4 on: Mar 18, 2009, 10:33AM »

Here he comes to save the day!

Shires/Edwards/Greenhoe open wrap (with rotary valve)
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« Reply #5 on: Mar 18, 2009, 11:30AM »

Nice photos but they're wrong.

Well, they're theoretical design renderings.  Real trombones don't look like that.

Real open wraps stick out so far they collect dents. 

Of course they play better in tune. 
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« Reply #6 on: Mar 18, 2009, 01:47PM »


My new Eastman/Shires doesn't stick way out. Sure don't want any dings!!
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« Reply #7 on: Mar 18, 2009, 02:18PM »

Picture?

The syntax for mounting one is:

Code:
[img]url of picture[/img]

Incidentally, the reason the Shires (and many others) don't stick out as far is because of that loop located near the valve.  It also eliminates the tight 180 degree bend as the return loop goes into the gooseneck.

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« Reply #8 on: Mar 18, 2009, 04:06PM »

We got into a discussion of wraps over on horn-u-copia.net  a while back; the following definitions were proposed:
Open Wrap: Single loop with a single loop where the radii of all bows and crooks is no less then 50% of the radius of the main tuning slide bow.
Semi-open Wrap: Single loop that does not meet the 50% requirement above (Benge horns used this design).
Flat Wrap: All attachment tubing in the same plane as the main tubing (the classic Olds pancake wrap).
Traditional Wrap: A double loop that extends outside the plane of the main bell section, but does not extend backward beyond the back bow by a significant amount

Based on Gabe's input, maybe there should be a distinction between a standard open wrap (e.g., Bach) and an improved open wrap of the sort used by Shires, Edwards, and others.

Of course, lots of different wraps meet the "traditional wrap" definition, but thems the breaks.
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« Reply #9 on: Mar 18, 2009, 05:55PM »

What would be the benefit of each, besides using a closed wrap in closed quarters?
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« Reply #10 on: Mar 18, 2009, 06:30PM »

Closed wraps with rotor valves is the older, more traditional style (if we omit the even-earlier and never-used-anymore flat wrap).  Many players found the valve range "stuffy" or "less open" or "more resistant" than the open horn.  The open wrap was designed as a potential solution to this problem.  The straighter the pathway, the more like a straight horn, or so the logic goes.  Others accused the rotor valve itself of being the main problem, hence the smorgasboard of newer valve styles on the market today.

Most opinions about the effect of open vs. closed wraps are based on the comparison of horns that differ in many other characteristics (valve type. valve bore, f-tubing bore, leadpipe, bell material, bell weight, bell taper, etc.) besides wrap shape.  Only a very few have tested pairs of horns that differ only in the wrap.  (And even then, identical horns often play somewhat differently -- so how do you know how much is due to the wrap.)  For the rest of us, what matters is how the entire horn plays (given the possible changes due to a change of mouthpiece or interchangeable leadpipe).  But the general consensus is that many of the improvements in the last 30 or so years have lead to horns where the resistance with the valve is more like the resistance without the valve,  making it easier to get the same sound both with and without the valve.
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« Reply #11 on: Mar 18, 2009, 06:41PM »

P.S. (to my previous post)

One other thought about the benefits of different wraps.  The tuning slide in some wraps will pull far enough to give you a Flat-E tuning, which will give you a solid low B (above the pedal tone Bb) without lipping it down.  However, I recall reading on this forum some time ago, that while is is more likely to get a flat-E pull on an open wrap, some open wraps do not have a long enough tuning slide for a flat-E pull, and some closed wraps can pull to a flat-E.  This is certainly not the main reason to pick a certain style of horn, but it is a potential consideration, depending on the type of music you play.
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« Reply #12 on: Mar 18, 2009, 06:48PM »

Trombones are always described as open wrap or closed wrap.
What are the differences between them?

more accurately, if I am not mistaken 

you have straight trombones, no valve/trigger such as the Conn 6 H

you have trigger/valve trombone

    those may have "open" or "closed" wrap

this way, you get the tenor trombone, the tenor trombone with F attachment and bass trombone.  Both the "F attachment and Bass have "wraps"  I believe.

Can anyone else be more specific.  Are there still "staight" bass trombones?


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« Reply #13 on: Mar 18, 2009, 06:56PM »

Gabe......update your TruBore pics on the dependent bass pics.....for me the greatest.....also, my TruBore large bore tenor is awesome.....

S.
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« Reply #14 on: Mar 18, 2009, 07:07PM »

The straighter the pathway, the more like a straight horn, or so the logic goes.  Others accused the rotor valve itself of being the main problem, hence the smorgasboard of newer valve styles on the market today.


An additional theory on open wrap nobody has mentioned:  To a sound wave, a bend in a tube looks the same as a wide spot.  Most attachment tubing is already on the large side and the increase caused by the bends makes this worse.  Open wraps are better because they seem to be narrower bore to the sound wave. 

An additional consideration, beyond the problem with the E-pull:  some wraps convert easily to G, others not.  My closed wrap 42B would have to be converted to open wrap first, I've been told, it's cheaper to buy a new horn.  Though I understand the 3B+ could be converted even being closed wrap.  There are a lot of theoretical advantages to the G, especially for the amateur. 
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« Reply #15 on: Mar 18, 2009, 07:48PM »

Straigt Bass Trombone....

Yep there are straight basses.  After all a straight horn is just one without valves.  So one need look no further than the "F" and "G" small bore basses (the ones with the really long slides with handles) that dominated in the UK for so many years.  Yamaha even made an "F" horn for Doug Yeo a couple of years ago.  Edwards (and I'm sure Shires as well) has the capability of removing one or both axial flow valves -- just to get the weight off of your arm when valves aren't need.  Of course a .562, or .578 bore bass is kinda useless without the valves (except for that really great timbre -- I love it so).  Anyway there's an answer.
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« Reply #16 on: Mar 18, 2009, 08:02PM »

Closed wrap: the attachment tubing stays inside the outline of the straight horn. Open wrap: the attachment tubing goes outside the outline of the straight horn. In other words, the attachment tubing sticks out beyond the tuning slide.

While an open wrap design is theoretically better than a closed wrap (and I do play an open wrap Shires horn), I liked the closed wrap Bach 42B better than the open wrap Bach 42BO. Closed vs open is not the most important factor in how a horn plays. It's just one factor, and not a very important one at that - in my opinion.
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« Reply #17 on: Mar 18, 2009, 08:06PM »

Harold, the "straight bass" for Doug Yeo was made by Bob Osmun (and Steve Shires).  It had a double slide and wound up having 8 positions in the length of a normal slide.  It was intended for the "Miraculous Mandarin" and "Concerto for Orchestra" glisses.  I believe Doug still has a picture of the thing on his site.
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« Reply #18 on: Mar 18, 2009, 08:20PM »

If you go to Doug's website and click on the option for "making a trombone" video (or something like that), you will see in the video where Yamaha gave it to him.  Your right, he got it for the glisses, but I think the horn of which you speak is another instrument. (The dude has more trombones than Carter has little liver pills.  Now there's a line that will date me.) The one given to him by Yamaha is a slightly larger bore than the older F's or G's --- I could be wrong about all of this --- I was wrong once......been about 6 years.  Oh well I guess that I'm due.
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« Reply #19 on: Mar 19, 2009, 03:54AM »

Maybe you are thinking of the one with the serpent's head bell?  Definitely not for the Bartok, but useful for Monteverdi.  I was under the impression that Yamaha made him an F Bass with a C trigger.
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« Reply #20 on: Mar 19, 2009, 09:28AM »

If you go to Doug's website and click on the option for "making a trombone" video (or something like that), you will see in the video where Yamaha gave it to him.  Your right, he got it for the glisses, but I think the horn of which you speak is another instrument. (The dude has more trombones than Carter has little liver pills.  Now there's a line that will date me.) The one given to him by Yamaha is a slightly larger bore than the older F's or G's --- I could be wrong about all of this --- I was wrong once......been about 6 years.  Oh well I guess that I'm due.

Here's the link to the thread where Doug first posted the link to the video.

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,10034.0.html

The link still works.   Once the video loads, scroll to near the end (unless you want to watch the rather interesting stuff on how horns are made).  The horn is clearly a straight horn.  Doug calls it a contrabass.
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« Reply #21 on: Mar 22, 2009, 12:33AM »

By the way, what's a flat wrap?
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« Reply #22 on: Mar 22, 2009, 06:25AM »

Quoting JohnL's post earlier in this thread

Flat Wrap: All attachment tubing in the same plane as the main tubing (the classic Olds pancake wrap).

Here's a picture on a flat-wrap Olds on ebay right now.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380110950020&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fshop.ebay.com%3A80%2F%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dp3907.m38.l1313%26_nkw%3D380110950020%26_sacat%3DSee-All-Categories%26_fvi%3D1&_rdc=1

I've never actually laid hands on one, but I've got to believe that the flat wrap limits the ability to pull the attachment tuning slide to an E or a flat E.
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« Reply #23 on: Mar 22, 2009, 06:29AM »

The f attach tube is in the same plane as the bell.  This is the best pic I could find...
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« Reply #24 on: Mar 22, 2009, 07:02AM »

...
I've never actually laid hands on one, but I've got to believe that the flat wrap limits the ability to pull the attachment tuning slide to an E or a flat E.

My LA Ambassador with F had a single tuning slide and could not attain flat E.

I have played a later Ambassador with F and saw a SuperStar with F; both flat wraps.  They had two tuning slides so you could attain flat E by pulling both of them.

Biggest problem with Olds' flat wrap was that the tubing diameter was on the small side.
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« Reply #25 on: Mar 22, 2009, 08:19AM »

i'm no expert (thats for sure) but from the picture, it looks like the trombone has a tune in slide set up and perhaps a two small tuning slides on the attachment.
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« Reply #26 on: Mar 22, 2009, 08:29AM »

My LA Ambassador with F had a single tuning slide and could not attain flat E.

I have played a later Ambassador with F and saw a SuperStar with F; both flat wraps.  They had two tuning slides so you could attain flat E by pulling both of them.

Biggest problem with Olds' flat wrap was that the tubing diameter was on the small side.


OK. I can see that now in the ebay link that I posted.  The auction is actually for TWO olds flat-wrap trombones (in very poor condition).  In the second one, both attachment tuning slides are pushed in, while in the first one, the larger tuning slide is extended.  You can see how the smaller tuning slide could also then be extended.

But this looks terribly awkward -- two slides to move, and one is in the way of the other.  The old King closed wraps with two tuning slides (that I have on my 5B and that I know Bruce is familiar with, too) had two slides that could be moved independently of each other.  One was used to tune the attachment and the other to pull to E -- leaving the attachment tuning intact when returning to F.
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« Reply #27 on: Mar 22, 2009, 08:44AM »

I never said the Olds double slide setup was convenient.  In fact, it's nearly impossible to deal with.  I would consider the Olds Flat Wrap to not really have an E-pull, although the single slide on my LA Ambassador was marked for a "half-E" implying that an inner slide would also be similarly marked.
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« Reply #28 on: Mar 22, 2009, 09:32AM »

A little nitpicky detail...

Can we stop using the term "closed wrap"? It's not as if the darn thing were actually closed - air still moves through it. Maybe "traditional wrap"?

As for the flat wrap? Here's a pic of one of mine from the gallery:

There are several variations on the basic theme, but you get the idea. This particular one is a basket case, but I have two other flat-wrap horns that I play regularly (a Williams and an Olds). Neither one has a a workable E pull. The Olds attachment is pretty tight, but not unusably so; the Williams isn't bad at all.

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« Reply #29 on: Mar 22, 2009, 04:46PM »

 Maybe you are thinking of the one with the serpent's head bell?  Definitely not for the Bartok, but   useful for Monteverdi.  I was under the impression that Yamaha made him an F Bass with a C trigger.

  Not that I want to change the thread, or that I'm some kind of expert on Master Yeo, but just a thought....

On Doug's site, under the pictures of trombone related stuff, panel 4 is the G bass with "D" trigger.  Panel 6 is the horn that Yammy made.
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« Reply #30 on: Sep 04, 2017, 09:07AM »

Thinking of buying a new horn. Should I even consider a classic wrap? Everyone says to get a open wrap. The opens seem to be a lot more expensive but someone also mentioned that the valve is also important  on opens and I'm not thinking of anything fancy like an Edwards. I'm just getting run of the mill conns, bachs, king, etc. Etc.no fancy valves or anything. What should I do?
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« Reply #31 on: Sep 04, 2017, 09:32AM »

We've used classic wraps for generations.  Open wrap is not all it's cracked up to be.  Note that a "closed" wrap with few tight bends is actually pretty open.  I've found little to no difference between my Yamaha 682 and open wrap horns.  But a nice classic Conn 88H or King 4B feels great to me.

The whole reason for this brouhaha was that Bach put the same valve and F tubing on the 42B that they used on the 36B.  On the 36B it's great.  On the 42B it's too small.  O.E. Thayer came out with a great replacement and a lot of us modified our Bach 42B's.  Problem was, the Thayer wouldn't work with a classic wrap so an open version was used.  Competitors thought the improvement was the fewer bends in the open wrap and the concept took off.  But a Bach 42B with the old valve and an open wrap is still stuffy.

Don't let wrap be a deciding factor.  Let how it plays be a deciding factor. Good!
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« Reply #32 on: Sep 04, 2017, 09:50AM »

We've used classic wraps for generations.  Open wrap is not all it's cracked up to be.  Note that a "closed" wrap with few tight bends is actually pretty open.  I've found little to no difference between my Yamaha 682 and open wrap horns.  But a nice classic Conn 88H or King 4B feels great to me.

The whole reason for this brouhaha was that Bach put the same valve and F tubing on the 42B that they used on the 36B.  On the 36B it's great.  On the 42B it's too small.  O.E. Thayer came out with a great replacement and a lot of us modified our Bach 42B's.  Problem was, the Thayer wouldn't work with a classic wrap so an open version was used.  Competitors thought the improvement was the fewer bends in the open wrap and the concept took off.  But a Bach 42B with the old valve and an open wrap is still stuffy.

Don't let wrap be a deciding factor.  Let how it plays be a deciding factor. Good!

TOTALLY AGREE!!!
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« Reply #33 on: Sep 04, 2017, 09:51AM »

Over the years I have owned nad tested plenty of horns with "closed" and "open" wrap.
Some very good horns, some not so good. I could never find that the way the valve(s) was wraped did anithing to the difference. But an open wrap get dented more easily.
My very old Bach 45B have a very old valve (1954) and it works beautifully!
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« Reply #34 on: Sep 04, 2017, 10:13AM »

Larry Minick talked about this before he passed away. He said the only reason that he open wrapped the early horns was to make it better for water condensation. Easier to get the water out of the closed wrap bass bones. Also, when I was at North Texas, a million years ago it seems, a very large instrument company did a test on this. They styrofoam wrapped bell sections so nobody knew which was open or closed wrapped. Virtually no difference. When the styrofoam came off, almost everyone claimed the open wrap was better. Mostly a visual.

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« Reply #35 on: Sep 04, 2017, 10:16AM »

Also, just a note about your terminology: when you say "classic" wrap, I think you probably mean what most players refer to as "closed" wrap. There are some classic wraps earlier in this thread, but I've not seen it on any modern horn (say, past 1940). Closed wrap is like a Bach 42B or Conn 88H. I have one of these on my Shires (with an added dependent valve actually) and its among the best playing rotors I've owned. I preferred it even to a Tru-Bore that I owned, and consequently sold.  


That said, "everyone" does not say open wrap are superior... although there are some who do. In my opinion, they place an overly excise share of how a horn plays on how it is wrapped.  There are two one undeniable advantages open wrap horns have: its easier to get moisture out of them (as fridge indicated) and many people find them more well balanced (meaning they have a sort of counterweight because they stick out further than closed wraps).  

That's basically it.  Bruce mentioned some of the reasons why open wrapped horns became popular. I think one of the more legitimate rebuttals is that there is more room for error in a closed wrap horn because there are several more bends that need ferrules to be soldered together.  More solders = more places to mess up.  Buying new, I think that may well be a reasonable criticism. But it isn't anything that can't be fixed and certainly if you buy used well within the difference in cost of a new horn vs. the used horn.
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« Reply #36 on: Sep 04, 2017, 10:25AM »

Can we go back to arguing about stuff that matters - like Slidomix vs. Yamasnot?  :)
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« Reply #37 on: Sep 04, 2017, 11:33AM »

I think the configuration of the valve tubing doesn't make as much of a difference as tubing bore does. Some trombones have valves that are bored larger than the slide, others are bored the same as the slide.

You can feel this difference if you play a King 5B and a Benge 190 side-by-side. The wraps are different, but I don't believe this makes a huge difference. The 190's valve is bored larger than the 5B, and because of this, 1st position low F feels more open on the Benge than the King. However, the King can peel paint more easily in the low register. That's my personal experience, anyway.
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« Reply #38 on: Sep 04, 2017, 11:36AM »

Don't believe the hype about old school designs and closed wrap. They never worked for anyone. All the serious pros play open wrap exclusively, as you can see in the following pics. Not a cent can be earned or an audition won playing on closed wrap:










("This is where the cash cow is located" -Jorgen)

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« Reply #39 on: Sep 04, 2017, 11:48AM »

Whoops. I used the wrong images:








(I think it's hilarious that this image was intended to replace the cover of the CD from the previous post)





As you can see, Branamir's internet connection is a little slow, but he'll eventually get an open wrap too and get with the program. He also hasn't aged a day in over 30 years.
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« Reply #40 on: Sep 04, 2017, 11:58AM »

The guy on the left in the first picture of your first post has a VERY open wrap! :-P

(Is that Glenn Dodgson?)
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« Reply #41 on: Sep 04, 2017, 12:14PM »

The guy on the left in the first picture of your first post has a VERY open wrap! :-P

(Is that Glenn Dodgson Dodson?)

Oh yeah. Sure is. The poser on the right with the actual open wrap is Charlie Vernon. I can picture them making fun of poor ol' Charlie and his open wrap back then.

Glenn: "Stupid dumb Charlie and your weird custom trombone wrap and weird leather hand grips. You are so silly"
Joe:   "Yeah, see... What he said, see... Bet you can't play licks like this with those dumb leather hand grips!"
Charlie: "Aw come on guys!"
Glenn:  "Shut it, Joe. Stinkin' second fiddle."
Joe:   "Sorry Glenn..."
Charlie: "...Well...your face looks like Pond's Cold Cream..."
Joe:   "...Shut up, Charlie..."
Charlie: " :( Wuhl' OK guys..."
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« Reply #42 on: Sep 04, 2017, 01:24PM »

David Cantero, principal trombone of LA Phil, plays a closed wrap 42BG.

Noah Gladstone's super Bach 42s are really great- the closed wrap version with a new valve is especially good.

I would have kept the closed wrap on my 42B, but the valve I bought doesn't accommodate it.
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« Reply #43 on: Sep 04, 2017, 01:50PM »

...

I would have kept the closed wrap on my 42B, but the valve I bought doesn't accommodate it.

Hagmann's and Thayers (and some others) don't support conventional wraps.  Best you can do is a loop that shortens the extension of the open wrap like the LaRosa.
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« Reply #44 on: Sep 04, 2017, 01:53PM »

Do they typically make closed wraps with a slightly larger bore in the "wrap" section to make up for potential loss in tone quality? Or am I making that up?
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« Reply #45 on: Sep 04, 2017, 02:08PM »

Do they typically make closed wraps with a slightly larger bore in the "wrap" section to make up for potential loss in tone quality? Or am I making that up?

You aren't making it up, although there are some attachments that are the same bore as the slide tubing.  Why larger?  Probably because the bore of the instrument at that point is generally larger than the slide.  Don't know if it's intended to compensate for anything.  On the other hand, the attachment tubing on my Olds Ambassador with F was actually SMALLER than the slide tubing.
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« Reply #46 on: Sep 04, 2017, 02:14PM »

Larger tubing on the F attachment is to match the outer handslide measurement.

For example-- .547 inner handslide uses a .562 outer handslide to fit over the inner. There is no loss of "sound quality." Nobody listening will ever know if you are using the trigger and valve or not-- ever.

They sell the larger bore as a means to match the extended 6th position F in 6th using the outerslide as the bore needed. So, the F attachment matches the outer extended, a larger bore.
Now, if this were a "real thing" then all of the other brass instruments would be using mismatched bores....and all trumpets would be a mess of different bore sizes all over the place.
But, it is only a trombone thing.

Eventually marketing sold the larger bore F attachment on modern horns as a modern thing, to differentiate from antiquated designs. It is a sales point.
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« Reply #47 on: Sep 04, 2017, 02:31PM »

Do they typically make closed wraps with a slightly larger bore in the "wrap" section to make up for potential loss in tone quality? Or am I making that up?

To expand on what Kevin said: Both open and closed wrap horns typically have a larger bore. That design predates open wraps. Bach 36s, for example, use 562 tubing for their F attachment (indicdentally, the same as the 42 as others have mentioned).  The exception to the rule are horns that have the same bore size such as the King 6B, 3B+ (well, close at least, 525 inner, 530 tubing if I'm recalling rightly). Some of the Yamaha medium bores might as well but I've never measured it; nor do they provide the specs online unfortunately.

Interestingly, the Shires rotor they use on their altos and small bore horns evidently was designed for the alto first, but I also don't know what its bore size is.  So that might also be close.

Another exception are some Hagmann valves which come as small as .530. So some horns with a Hagmann valve have a tubing that is the same bore as the inner slide. Those come in both open, closed, and my personal favorite, their "German" wrap. 

It, sort of, is for tone in the sense that the size of the tubing makes a difference. But it isn't necessarily to 'compensate' for closed or open wrap.
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« Reply #48 on: Sep 05, 2017, 12:27AM »

The difference for me between open and closed wrap is not how they play (to me, that's more the individual horn than the wrap) but the fact that the open wraps with a long F section are dent magnets and hard to work with in cramped spaces.

I play a Thayer now.  I guess that would be labelled an open wrap, but the F side doesn't protrude farther than the Bb side, so I'm fine with it.

I did play a closed wrap Bach 42 for a long time (mostly because open wraps didn't exist when I got it).
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« Reply #49 on: Sep 05, 2017, 05:36AM »

Aside from valves that can't be configured with a closed wrap, the condensation drainage is the one practical advantage of open wrap. If you are always playing on the valves like you do on a bass you want the water to drain down the slide instead of getting trapped in the wrap. The idea is that between raising the horn to play and resing in the slide down position, all the water drains to the slide. When the wrap gets water in it, you pull the F tuning slide and tilt the horn backwards(for Conns, Yammies and Kings may involve a twist or flip).

I imagine open wraps are cheaper to make because they have fewer bends and joints. The Thayer wrap doesn't stick out behind because it goes forward to the bell brace.
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« Reply #50 on: Sep 05, 2017, 09:41AM »

One of each.
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« Reply #51 on: Sep 19, 2017, 10:46AM »

Very interesting to hear.  Back when I had a Bach 42b in high school, I rarely used the attachment because of the awful sound, and sold the horn.  Now, that I am playing again and looking to get an F-attachment, I was sure I wanted an open wrap to avoid the problem. But you are saying the problem with my old Bach was the valve! So, I'll take your advice: listen to the horn when I am shopping now!
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