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Author Topic: Open wrap? Closed wrap?  (Read 18756 times)
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me

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« on: Mar 17, 2009, 10:29PM »

Trombones are always described as open wrap or closed wrap.
What are the differences between them?
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« Reply #1 on: Mar 17, 2009, 10:56PM »

Closed wrap-


Open Wrap-


It's how the F attachment tubing is arranged.
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« Reply #2 on: Mar 18, 2009, 06:32AM »

Thanks a lot/ :)
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« Reply #3 on: Mar 18, 2009, 06:39AM »

To go a step deeper here however, there's another important consideration: the angle at which the ports come out of the valve.

Steve Shires, Gary Greenhoe, and Christan Griego and the team at Edwards that designed the new Alessi model all maintain the 90-degree or less angles of the valve ports you see in the Bach closed wrap photo above. Experimentation has led them all to the conclusion that open wrap is good, but open wrap without a tight, 180-degree turn as the valve tubing comes back to the open horn (as in the Bach open wrap in the lower photo) is much, much better.

I've never bothered to learn how to post photos here, but they are all readily available.
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« Reply #4 on: Mar 18, 2009, 10:33AM »

Here he comes to save the day!

Shires/Edwards/Greenhoe open wrap (with rotary valve)
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« Reply #5 on: Mar 18, 2009, 11:30AM »

Nice photos but they're wrong.

Well, they're theoretical design renderings.  Real trombones don't look like that.

Real open wraps stick out so far they collect dents. 

Of course they play better in tune. 
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« Reply #6 on: Mar 18, 2009, 01:47PM »


My new Eastman/Shires doesn't stick way out. Sure don't want any dings!!
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« Reply #7 on: Mar 18, 2009, 02:18PM »

Picture?

The syntax for mounting one is:

Code:
[img]url of picture[/img]

Incidentally, the reason the Shires (and many others) don't stick out as far is because of that loop located near the valve.  It also eliminates the tight 180 degree bend as the return loop goes into the gooseneck.

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« Reply #8 on: Mar 18, 2009, 04:06PM »

We got into a discussion of wraps over on horn-u-copia.net  a while back; the following definitions were proposed:
Open Wrap: Single loop with a single loop where the radii of all bows and crooks is no less then 50% of the radius of the main tuning slide bow.
Semi-open Wrap: Single loop that does not meet the 50% requirement above (Benge horns used this design).
Flat Wrap: All attachment tubing in the same plane as the main tubing (the classic Olds pancake wrap).
Traditional Wrap: A double loop that extends outside the plane of the main bell section, but does not extend backward beyond the back bow by a significant amount

Based on Gabe's input, maybe there should be a distinction between a standard open wrap (e.g., Bach) and an improved open wrap of the sort used by Shires, Edwards, and others.

Of course, lots of different wraps meet the "traditional wrap" definition, but thems the breaks.
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« Reply #9 on: Mar 18, 2009, 05:55PM »

What would be the benefit of each, besides using a closed wrap in closed quarters?
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« Reply #10 on: Mar 18, 2009, 06:30PM »

Closed wraps with rotor valves is the older, more traditional style (if we omit the even-earlier and never-used-anymore flat wrap).  Many players found the valve range "stuffy" or "less open" or "more resistant" than the open horn.  The open wrap was designed as a potential solution to this problem.  The straighter the pathway, the more like a straight horn, or so the logic goes.  Others accused the rotor valve itself of being the main problem, hence the smorgasboard of newer valve styles on the market today.

Most opinions about the effect of open vs. closed wraps are based on the comparison of horns that differ in many other characteristics (valve type. valve bore, f-tubing bore, leadpipe, bell material, bell weight, bell taper, etc.) besides wrap shape.  Only a very few have tested pairs of horns that differ only in the wrap.  (And even then, identical horns often play somewhat differently -- so how do you know how much is due to the wrap.)  For the rest of us, what matters is how the entire horn plays (given the possible changes due to a change of mouthpiece or interchangeable leadpipe).  But the general consensus is that many of the improvements in the last 30 or so years have lead to horns where the resistance with the valve is more like the resistance without the valve,  making it easier to get the same sound both with and without the valve.
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« Reply #11 on: Mar 18, 2009, 06:41PM »

P.S. (to my previous post)

One other thought about the benefits of different wraps.  The tuning slide in some wraps will pull far enough to give you a Flat-E tuning, which will give you a solid low B (above the pedal tone Bb) without lipping it down.  However, I recall reading on this forum some time ago, that while is is more likely to get a flat-E pull on an open wrap, some open wraps do not have a long enough tuning slide for a flat-E pull, and some closed wraps can pull to a flat-E.  This is certainly not the main reason to pick a certain style of horn, but it is a potential consideration, depending on the type of music you play.
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« Reply #12 on: Mar 18, 2009, 06:48PM »

Trombones are always described as open wrap or closed wrap.
What are the differences between them?

more accurately, if I am not mistaken 

you have straight trombones, no valve/trigger such as the Conn 6 H

you have trigger/valve trombone

    those may have "open" or "closed" wrap

this way, you get the tenor trombone, the tenor trombone with F attachment and bass trombone.  Both the "F attachment and Bass have "wraps"  I believe.

Can anyone else be more specific.  Are there still "staight" bass trombones?


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« Reply #13 on: Mar 18, 2009, 06:56PM »

Gabe......update your TruBore pics on the dependent bass pics.....for me the greatest.....also, my TruBore large bore tenor is awesome.....

S.
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« Reply #14 on: Mar 18, 2009, 07:07PM »

The straighter the pathway, the more like a straight horn, or so the logic goes.  Others accused the rotor valve itself of being the main problem, hence the smorgasboard of newer valve styles on the market today.


An additional theory on open wrap nobody has mentioned:  To a sound wave, a bend in a tube looks the same as a wide spot.  Most attachment tubing is already on the large side and the increase caused by the bends makes this worse.  Open wraps are better because they seem to be narrower bore to the sound wave. 

An additional consideration, beyond the problem with the E-pull:  some wraps convert easily to G, others not.  My closed wrap 42B would have to be converted to open wrap first, I've been told, it's cheaper to buy a new horn.  Though I understand the 3B+ could be converted even being closed wrap.  There are a lot of theoretical advantages to the G, especially for the amateur. 
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« Reply #15 on: Mar 18, 2009, 07:48PM »

Straigt Bass Trombone....

Yep there are straight basses.  After all a straight horn is just one without valves.  So one need look no further than the "F" and "G" small bore basses (the ones with the really long slides with handles) that dominated in the UK for so many years.  Yamaha even made an "F" horn for Doug Yeo a couple of years ago.  Edwards (and I'm sure Shires as well) has the capability of removing one or both axial flow valves -- just to get the weight off of your arm when valves aren't need.  Of course a .562, or .578 bore bass is kinda useless without the valves (except for that really great timbre -- I love it so).  Anyway there's an answer.
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« Reply #16 on: Mar 18, 2009, 08:02PM »

Closed wrap: the attachment tubing stays inside the outline of the straight horn. Open wrap: the attachment tubing goes outside the outline of the straight horn. In other words, the attachment tubing sticks out beyond the tuning slide.

While an open wrap design is theoretically better than a closed wrap (and I do play an open wrap Shires horn), I liked the closed wrap Bach 42B better than the open wrap Bach 42BO. Closed vs open is not the most important factor in how a horn plays. It's just one factor, and not a very important one at that - in my opinion.
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« Reply #17 on: Mar 18, 2009, 08:06PM »

Harold, the "straight bass" for Doug Yeo was made by Bob Osmun (and Steve Shires).  It had a double slide and wound up having 8 positions in the length of a normal slide.  It was intended for the "Miraculous Mandarin" and "Concerto for Orchestra" glisses.  I believe Doug still has a picture of the thing on his site.
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« Reply #18 on: Mar 18, 2009, 08:20PM »

If you go to Doug's website and click on the option for "making a trombone" video (or something like that), you will see in the video where Yamaha gave it to him.  Your right, he got it for the glisses, but I think the horn of which you speak is another instrument. (The dude has more trombones than Carter has little liver pills.  Now there's a line that will date me.) The one given to him by Yamaha is a slightly larger bore than the older F's or G's --- I could be wrong about all of this --- I was wrong once......been about 6 years.  Oh well I guess that I'm due.
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« Reply #19 on: Mar 19, 2009, 03:54AM »

Maybe you are thinking of the one with the serpent's head bell?  Definitely not for the Bartok, but useful for Monteverdi.  I was under the impression that Yamaha made him an F Bass with a C trigger.
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