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Author Topic: Open wrap? Closed wrap?  (Read 18461 times)
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DogBone35

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« Reply #20 on: Mar 19, 2009, 09:28AM »

If you go to Doug's website and click on the option for "making a trombone" video (or something like that), you will see in the video where Yamaha gave it to him.  Your right, he got it for the glisses, but I think the horn of which you speak is another instrument. (The dude has more trombones than Carter has little liver pills.  Now there's a line that will date me.) The one given to him by Yamaha is a slightly larger bore than the older F's or G's --- I could be wrong about all of this --- I was wrong once......been about 6 years.  Oh well I guess that I'm due.

Here's the link to the thread where Doug first posted the link to the video.

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,10034.0.html

The link still works.   Once the video loads, scroll to near the end (unless you want to watch the rather interesting stuff on how horns are made).  The horn is clearly a straight horn.  Doug calls it a contrabass.
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« Reply #21 on: Mar 22, 2009, 12:33AM »

By the way, what's a flat wrap?
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DogBone35

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« Reply #22 on: Mar 22, 2009, 06:25AM »

Quoting JohnL's post earlier in this thread

Flat Wrap: All attachment tubing in the same plane as the main tubing (the classic Olds pancake wrap).

Here's a picture on a flat-wrap Olds on ebay right now.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380110950020&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fshop.ebay.com%3A80%2F%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dp3907.m38.l1313%26_nkw%3D380110950020%26_sacat%3DSee-All-Categories%26_fvi%3D1&_rdc=1

I've never actually laid hands on one, but I've got to believe that the flat wrap limits the ability to pull the attachment tuning slide to an E or a flat E.
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Trav1s
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« Reply #23 on: Mar 22, 2009, 06:29AM »

The f attach tube is in the same plane as the bell.  This is the best pic I could find...
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« Reply #24 on: Mar 22, 2009, 07:02AM »

...
I've never actually laid hands on one, but I've got to believe that the flat wrap limits the ability to pull the attachment tuning slide to an E or a flat E.

My LA Ambassador with F had a single tuning slide and could not attain flat E.

I have played a later Ambassador with F and saw a SuperStar with F; both flat wraps.  They had two tuning slides so you could attain flat E by pulling both of them.

Biggest problem with Olds' flat wrap was that the tubing diameter was on the small side.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #25 on: Mar 22, 2009, 08:19AM »

i'm no expert (thats for sure) but from the picture, it looks like the trombone has a tune in slide set up and perhaps a two small tuning slides on the attachment.
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DogBone35

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« Reply #26 on: Mar 22, 2009, 08:29AM »

My LA Ambassador with F had a single tuning slide and could not attain flat E.

I have played a later Ambassador with F and saw a SuperStar with F; both flat wraps.  They had two tuning slides so you could attain flat E by pulling both of them.

Biggest problem with Olds' flat wrap was that the tubing diameter was on the small side.


OK. I can see that now in the ebay link that I posted.  The auction is actually for TWO olds flat-wrap trombones (in very poor condition).  In the second one, both attachment tuning slides are pushed in, while in the first one, the larger tuning slide is extended.  You can see how the smaller tuning slide could also then be extended.

But this looks terribly awkward -- two slides to move, and one is in the way of the other.  The old King closed wraps with two tuning slides (that I have on my 5B and that I know Bruce is familiar with, too) had two slides that could be moved independently of each other.  One was used to tune the attachment and the other to pull to E -- leaving the attachment tuning intact when returning to F.
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BGuttman
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« Reply #27 on: Mar 22, 2009, 08:44AM »

I never said the Olds double slide setup was convenient.  In fact, it's nearly impossible to deal with.  I would consider the Olds Flat Wrap to not really have an E-pull, although the single slide on my LA Ambassador was marked for a "half-E" implying that an inner slide would also be similarly marked.
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« Reply #28 on: Mar 22, 2009, 09:32AM »

A little nitpicky detail...

Can we stop using the term "closed wrap"? It's not as if the darn thing were actually closed - air still moves through it. Maybe "traditional wrap"?

As for the flat wrap? Here's a pic of one of mine from the gallery:

There are several variations on the basic theme, but you get the idea. This particular one is a basket case, but I have two other flat-wrap horns that I play regularly (a Williams and an Olds). Neither one has a a workable E pull. The Olds attachment is pretty tight, but not unusably so; the Williams isn't bad at all.

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« Reply #29 on: Mar 22, 2009, 04:46PM »

 Maybe you are thinking of the one with the serpent's head bell?  Definitely not for the Bartok, but   useful for Monteverdi.  I was under the impression that Yamaha made him an F Bass with a C trigger.

  Not that I want to change the thread, or that I'm some kind of expert on Master Yeo, but just a thought....

On Doug's site, under the pictures of trombone related stuff, panel 4 is the G bass with "D" trigger.  Panel 6 is the horn that Yammy made.
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« Reply #30 on: Sep 04, 2017, 09:07AM »

Thinking of buying a new horn. Should I even consider a classic wrap? Everyone says to get a open wrap. The opens seem to be a lot more expensive but someone also mentioned that the valve is also important  on opens and I'm not thinking of anything fancy like an Edwards. I'm just getting run of the mill conns, bachs, king, etc. Etc.no fancy valves or anything. What should I do?
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« Reply #31 on: Sep 04, 2017, 09:32AM »

We've used classic wraps for generations.  Open wrap is not all it's cracked up to be.  Note that a "closed" wrap with few tight bends is actually pretty open.  I've found little to no difference between my Yamaha 682 and open wrap horns.  But a nice classic Conn 88H or King 4B feels great to me.

The whole reason for this brouhaha was that Bach put the same valve and F tubing on the 42B that they used on the 36B.  On the 36B it's great.  On the 42B it's too small.  O.E. Thayer came out with a great replacement and a lot of us modified our Bach 42B's.  Problem was, the Thayer wouldn't work with a classic wrap so an open version was used.  Competitors thought the improvement was the fewer bends in the open wrap and the concept took off.  But a Bach 42B with the old valve and an open wrap is still stuffy.

Don't let wrap be a deciding factor.  Let how it plays be a deciding factor. Good!
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #32 on: Sep 04, 2017, 09:50AM »

We've used classic wraps for generations.  Open wrap is not all it's cracked up to be.  Note that a "closed" wrap with few tight bends is actually pretty open.  I've found little to no difference between my Yamaha 682 and open wrap horns.  But a nice classic Conn 88H or King 4B feels great to me.

The whole reason for this brouhaha was that Bach put the same valve and F tubing on the 42B that they used on the 36B.  On the 36B it's great.  On the 42B it's too small.  O.E. Thayer came out with a great replacement and a lot of us modified our Bach 42B's.  Problem was, the Thayer wouldn't work with a classic wrap so an open version was used.  Competitors thought the improvement was the fewer bends in the open wrap and the concept took off.  But a Bach 42B with the old valve and an open wrap is still stuffy.

Don't let wrap be a deciding factor.  Let how it plays be a deciding factor. Good!

TOTALLY AGREE!!!
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« Reply #33 on: Sep 04, 2017, 09:51AM »

Over the years I have owned nad tested plenty of horns with "closed" and "open" wrap.
Some very good horns, some not so good. I could never find that the way the valve(s) was wraped did anithing to the difference. But an open wrap get dented more easily.
My very old Bach 45B have a very old valve (1954) and it works beautifully!
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« Reply #34 on: Sep 04, 2017, 10:13AM »

Larry Minick talked about this before he passed away. He said the only reason that he open wrapped the early horns was to make it better for water condensation. Easier to get the water out of the closed wrap bass bones. Also, when I was at North Texas, a million years ago it seems, a very large instrument company did a test on this. They styrofoam wrapped bell sections so nobody knew which was open or closed wrapped. Virtually no difference. When the styrofoam came off, almost everyone claimed the open wrap was better. Mostly a visual.

Fridge
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« Reply #35 on: Sep 04, 2017, 10:16AM »

Also, just a note about your terminology: when you say "classic" wrap, I think you probably mean what most players refer to as "closed" wrap. There are some classic wraps earlier in this thread, but I've not seen it on any modern horn (say, past 1940). Closed wrap is like a Bach 42B or Conn 88H. I have one of these on my Shires (with an added dependent valve actually) and its among the best playing rotors I've owned. I preferred it even to a Tru-Bore that I owned, and consequently sold.  


That said, "everyone" does not say open wrap are superior... although there are some who do. In my opinion, they place an overly excise share of how a horn plays on how it is wrapped.  There are two one undeniable advantages open wrap horns have: its easier to get moisture out of them (as fridge indicated) and many people find them more well balanced (meaning they have a sort of counterweight because they stick out further than closed wraps).  

That's basically it.  Bruce mentioned some of the reasons why open wrapped horns became popular. I think one of the more legitimate rebuttals is that there is more room for error in a closed wrap horn because there are several more bends that need ferrules to be soldered together.  More solders = more places to mess up.  Buying new, I think that may well be a reasonable criticism. But it isn't anything that can't be fixed and certainly if you buy used well within the difference in cost of a new horn vs. the used horn.
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« Reply #36 on: Sep 04, 2017, 10:25AM »

Can we go back to arguing about stuff that matters - like Slidomix vs. Yamasnot?  :)
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« Reply #37 on: Sep 04, 2017, 11:33AM »

I think the configuration of the valve tubing doesn't make as much of a difference as tubing bore does. Some trombones have valves that are bored larger than the slide, others are bored the same as the slide.

You can feel this difference if you play a King 5B and a Benge 190 side-by-side. The wraps are different, but I don't believe this makes a huge difference. The 190's valve is bored larger than the 5B, and because of this, 1st position low F feels more open on the Benge than the King. However, the King can peel paint more easily in the low register. That's my personal experience, anyway.
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« Reply #38 on: Sep 04, 2017, 11:36AM »

Don't believe the hype about old school designs and closed wrap. They never worked for anyone. All the serious pros play open wrap exclusively, as you can see in the following pics. Not a cent can be earned or an audition won playing on closed wrap:










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« Reply #39 on: Sep 04, 2017, 11:48AM »

Whoops. I used the wrong images:








(I think it's hilarious that this image was intended to replace the cover of the CD from the previous post)





As you can see, Branamir's internet connection is a little slow, but he'll eventually get an open wrap too and get with the program. He also hasn't aged a day in over 30 years.
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