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Author Topic: Trombone in the Bible!  (Read 23509 times)
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Dan
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« on: Jul 03, 2009, 10:24AM »

Until recently, I thought that the trumpet was the only instrument mentioned in the Bible. But I stumbled across this verse while reading in my King James Version:


"3:7 Therefore at that time, when all the people heard the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and all kinds of musick, all the people, the nations, and the languages, fell down [and] worshipped the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up."

It says sackbut! That's an ancient predecessor to the trombone! Anyway, just thought that was interesting.
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« Reply #1 on: Jul 03, 2009, 10:42AM »

Yes, but bear in mind that this is a mistranslation from a time when they were not sure what the hebrew or aramaic words exactly meant, so they translated it the best that they could have at the time. Now we know that this was a stringed instrument. The word in question, sabkha, at least looks like sackbut, but the translators knew that it was not a sackbut at the time, and this was just a stand in until a better translation could be determined.   

The same sort of situation exists in older German translations where posaune was used for the shofar, a ram's horn.

Fun stuff at any rate.
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« Reply #2 on: Jul 03, 2009, 10:58AM »

yup, didn't have brass instruments as we know them that long ago.  someone described as "killin on brass" was actually, literally "killin" with whatever passed for a sword then.
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« Reply #3 on: Jul 03, 2009, 03:43PM »

While that appears to be a mistranslation (the Lutheran bible has something like 7 mentions of trombone in the original as the trumpet of death was translated as trombone, thus tuba mirum) there is a mention (i will have to look it up) of trumpets that play different notes than usual in early Egyptian literature. A good book for all this is Guion's the trombone
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« Reply #4 on: Jul 03, 2009, 04:13PM »

yup, didn't have brass instruments as we know them that long ago.  someone described as "killin on brass" was actually, literally "killin" with whatever passed for a sword then.

Considering that the Naue Type II (Griffzungenschwert = grip-tongue) cut-and-thrust sword began to supplant the sickle sword as the weapon of choice in the Ancient Near East during the Late Bronze/Early Iron I transition, e.g., ca. thirteenth century BCE,, it is extremely likely that "whatever passed for a sword" during that era was, in fact, a sword.
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« Reply #5 on: Jul 03, 2009, 04:14PM »

really?

i bet you have a lot of friends Evil
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« Reply #6 on: Jul 03, 2009, 09:45PM »

What does the Bible say about slide lube?  Slide-o-Mix? Superslick?  Cold cream?  Olive oil?  It would be in Deuteronomy, I think.
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« Reply #7 on: Jul 03, 2009, 10:06PM »

i think they used (whatever passed for) lamp oil.

Olive Oil?.... perhaps.  I love the stuff, but i don;t want my horn to smell like a salad.

slightly off topic question - if Olive Oil is made form Olives, What is Baby Oil made from?
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« Reply #8 on: Jul 04, 2009, 08:11AM »

unfortunatly the use of slide-o-mix v. trombotine was a hotly debated topic in early christian times. Many orthodox groups believed that slide-o-mix was of divine creation and so used it on the holiest of instruments (trombone) while less conservative groups argued that trombotine (and other related lubricants) showed the creativity of the human spirit. Over time the two schools argued to a point where an agreement to remove all text relating to slide lubrication was removed from all editions of the bible and the scrolls sent to the deepest pits of the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra library where it remains to this day sitting next to the original orchestral parts to the David Concertino.
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« Reply #9 on: Jul 04, 2009, 10:27AM »

...and the scrolls sent to the deepest pits of the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra library where it remains to this day sitting next to the original orchestral parts to the David Concertino.

Is that the one by King David?
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« Reply #10 on: Jul 04, 2009, 07:57PM »

What does the Bible say about slide lube?  Slide-o-Mix? Superslick?  Cold cream?  Olive oil?  It would be in Deuteronomy, I think.

Slide grip was an issue as well, with the majority using psalm facing rather than the modern psalm down. 
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« Reply #11 on: Jul 04, 2009, 08:09PM »

Saxophones are also mentioned in the Bible...

...in that part about the wailing of the damned.
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« Reply #12 on: Jul 05, 2009, 05:55AM »

Of course, per Ezekiel, I consider myself the "hip" bone!
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« Reply #13 on: Jul 14, 2009, 01:37PM »

More than likely this reference in Daniel to a sackbut is actually a three stringed harp type of instrument known today as a trigon. It could also be a three side instrument with 4 or more strings. Supposedly the spelling in English is close to the spelling of sackbut. I have also heard that the sackbut was a favorite instrument of King James. The spelling for it may be Sabbeka or sambuke(as in the Holman Christian Standard footnote). I remember getting all excited about the sackbut being mentioned in the Bible only to be informed by the music history prof telling me differently. Of course I still think Martin Luther was correct :)
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« Reply #14 on: Jul 15, 2009, 07:11AM »

All the impressions that I have been able to collect, from my days in vacation Bible school as a kid, to an adult working in a school for theology, come down to: King James Bible, in English: WORST translation EVER! YMMV; discuss, if so inclined.
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« Reply #15 on: Jul 15, 2009, 07:17AM »

All the impressions that I have been able to collect, from my days in vacation Bible school as a kid, to an adult working in a school for theology, come down to: King James Bible, in English: WORST translation EVER! YMMV; discuss, if so inclined.

If so inclined, discuss in Chit Chat.  This section is about the history of the trombone.
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« Reply #16 on: Jul 15, 2009, 07:35AM »

If so inclined, discuss in Chit Chat.  This section is about the history of the trombone.

I think in this case it is a "non-history", but relevant to the Board.  Discussion of KJV or any other Bible does indeed belong in Chit-Chat.
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« Reply #17 on: Aug 10, 2009, 07:47AM »

An intresting subject, for sure.  Good! Good!

I once went to "Old Salem, NC" on a field trip with one of my child's 5th grade class (Today, part of Winston-Salem, NC). Old Salem was a Moravian community, and today actors (some of Moravian faith) work their (like Jamestown and Williamsburg VA) to show kids what everyday life was like back then.

In one of their buildings (seemed like it was a Church), they had some old trombones that were used in worship (some were basically remnants of trombones), and had them behind glass like a museum. It was real cool, and one of the guys mentioned they used instruments that were "Biblical".... which I wasn't aware trombones were Biblical.  Don't know

mistranslation from a time when they were not sure what the hebrew or aramaic words exactly meant, so they translated it the best that they could have at the time.
Just to add to Frodo's comments.... some translations/scripts were in Greek also.

The Roman Catholic Bible was from the Alexandrian Cannon - which includes the Apocrapha.
The Kings James Version, came from the Hebrew Cannon (no Apocrapha).
(refrence the council of Jamnia)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Jamnia

Just sayin....

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« Reply #18 on: Aug 10, 2009, 08:37AM »

What does the Bible say about slide lube?  Slide-o-Mix? Superslick?  Cold cream?  Olive oil?  It would be in Deuteronomy, I think.

Wasn't there something about that in the Torah? The guy who had only enough Trombotine for one gig, but the tube lasted for eight gigs?  Evil
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« Reply #19 on: Aug 10, 2009, 09:20AM »

Wasn't there something about that in the Torah? The guy who had only enough Trombotine for one gig, but the tube lasted for eight gigs?  Evil

sounds rather apocryphal
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« Reply #20 on: Aug 10, 2009, 10:06AM »

The Roman Catholic Bible was from the Alexandrian Cannon - which includes the Apocrapha.
The Kings James Version, came from the Hebrew Cannon (no Apocrapha).
(refrence the council of Jamnia)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Jamnia

Not quite correct: the Authorized Version, commonly referred to as the "King James Version," DOES include the Apocrypha, as did all English translations of the day, including the Geneva Bible favored by the Puritans. It was only in the 1630s—20 years after the KJV was issued—that Geneva Bibles occasionally appeared without the Apocrypha (the Geneva Bible of 1599 brought to the New World by the Pilgrims contains the Apocrypha), and only following the Restoration (1660) that Dissenters actively discouraged reading of the Apocrypha in public worship and for private instruction.) Only in the nineteenth century that printing English Bibles without the Apocrypha became the norm in North America.

And, BTW, it's "canon" not "cannon."  Way cool
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« Reply #21 on: Aug 10, 2009, 10:35AM »

Not quite correct: the Authorized Version, commonly referred to as the "King James Version," DOES include the Apocrypha, as did all English translations of the day, including the Geneva Bible favored by the Puritans. It was only in the 1630s—20 years after the KJV was issued—that Geneva Bibles occasionally appeared without the Apocrypha (the Geneva Bible of 1599 brought to the New World by the Pilgrims contains the Apocrypha), and only following the Restoration (1660) that Dissenters actively discouraged reading of the Apocrypha in public worship and for private instruction.) Only in the nineteenth century that printing English Bibles without the Apocrypha became the norm in North America.

And, BTW, it's "canon" not "cannon."  Way cool
I didn't realize I was being graded on my spelling.... so please excuse my mistake. I know it aggrevates people to see mistakes, almost as much as it urks me to be corrected (as this isn't English Class). Excuse the rant please.

I believe we have to just agree to disagree. The two canons were quite different. The Alexandrian Canon was written in Greek and included the Apocrapha.
The Hebrew Cannon was written in Hebrew, and did not include the Apocrapha.

http://www.essortment.com/all/apocryphacanon_rwvk.htm

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« Reply #22 on: Aug 10, 2009, 10:44AM »

And off to Chit-Chat we go!!
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« Reply #23 on: Aug 10, 2009, 10:45AM »

Sorry.

I wonder if Trombones were mentioned in the Apocrapha?

Anyone?

T.
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« Reply #24 on: Aug 10, 2009, 01:14PM »

I believe we have to just agree to disagree. The two canons were quite different. The Alexandrian Canon was written in Greek and included the Apocrapha.

No.

The historicity of the hypothetical "Council of Jamnia—which no less an authority as the eminent Jewish rabbinic scholar Jacob Neusner calls "fiction" (see e.g., From Testament to Torah: An Introduction to Judaism in its Formative Age. Englewood Cliffs, 1987: Prentice Hall, Perspectives on Ancient Judaism. III. Judaic and Christian Interpretation of Texts: Contents and Contexts, Lanham, 1987: University Press Studies in Judaism series, Judaism in the Matrix of Christianity, Philadelphia, 1986: Fortress Press. British edition, Edinburgh, 1988, T. & T. Collins.),—aside, the so-called "Alexandrian Canon" is NOT a collection of scriptural texts. It is a LIST OF BOOKS COMPILED BY THE JEWISH COMMUNITY IN ALEXANDRIA, EGYPT DURING THE LATE THIRD TO EARLY SECOND CENTURY BCE THAT THEY CONSIDERED TO BE SCRIPTURAL. As such, it predates the canonical list of Yavneh (late first century CE) by at least two centuries, and is an important witness to the beliefs of a Jewish community's understanding of the religious texts that THEY considered authoritative, long before the advent of the Christian church and the subsequent Jewish-Christian controversies and the anti-Christian reaction within the Jewish world, particularly post AD 70.

Furthermore, the fact that fragments of several of the so-called "Apocryphal" books, written in Hebrew or Aramaic, have been identified by non-confessionally committed religious scholars among the Qumran literary corpus strongly suggests that at least part of the Palestinian Jewish Community continued to cherish and use those "non-canonical" texts normatively no more than a generation prior to the "convocation" of the hypothetical "council of Jamnia."

Quite apart from that, the FACT remains that the Authorized/King James Version, as it was issued in the original printing by Robert Baker in 1611, as did every authorized revision printed under letters patent from the Crown, up to and including the final 1769 revision, includes EVERY SINGLE BOOK contained in the Alexandrian Canon. That is not a matter of opinion, interpretation, doctrinal, theological or philosophical commitment: that is a matter of demonstrable historical fact.
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« Reply #25 on: Aug 10, 2009, 04:44PM »

An intresting subject, for sure.  Good! Good!

I once went to "Old Salem, NC" on a field trip with one of my child's 5th grade class (Today, part of Winston-Salem, NC). Old Salem was a Moravian community, and today actors (some of Moravian faith) work their (like Jamestown and Williamsburg VA) to show kids what everyday life was like back then.

In one of their buildings (seemed like it was a Church), they had some old trombones that were used in worship (some were basically remnants of trombones), and had them behind glass like a museum. It was real cool, and one of the guys mentioned they used instruments that were "Biblical".... which I wasn't aware trombones were Biblical.  Don't know


Remember: the Moravians were German. Well into the 19th century, their services were in German, not English. "Trombone" is not in any English Bible I know of, but "Posaune" is all over the German Bible.  Clever That may be one reason why German-speaking people kept using the trombone when nearly everyone else had abandoned it.

(But I can't work the Italians into that theory!  Don't know It's only recently that I found they, too, kept using the trombone throughout the Baroque period.)
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« Reply #26 on: Aug 11, 2009, 12:07AM »

Can we get back to the jokes? I prefer the jokes.  :-P

I don't think this has been mentioned yet - If we didn't have brass instruments as we know them now, what exactly were the "trumpets" that caused the fall of Jericho?
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« Reply #27 on: Aug 11, 2009, 04:00AM »

I don't think this has been mentioned yet - If we didn't have brass instruments as we know them now, what exactly were the "trumpets" that caused the fall of Jericho?

Ram's horn Shofarim, as specified in Joshua 6.4.
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« Reply #28 on: Aug 11, 2009, 05:14AM »

Until recently, I thought that the trumpet was the only instrument mentioned in the Bible. But I stumbled across this verse while reading in my King James Version:


"3:7 Therefore at that time, when all the people heard the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and all kinds of musick, all the people, the nations, and the languages, fell down [and] worshipped the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up."

It says sackbut! That's an ancient predecessor to the trombone! Anyway, just thought that was interesting.

The finnish bible translates all the "trumpets" to a finnish word, that is in english trombone. So the finnish bible mentions trombone very often.
Of course the biblical instrument wasn't a dual bore independent thayer-thing, but probably a brass instrument of some kind.

But as you noticed, this brass instrument isn't really the only instrument mentioned in bible. You could read the psalm 150 to have an idea of the many instruments they had in the days of David. And to have an idea of the best reason to play them all Good!
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« Reply #29 on: Aug 13, 2009, 06:15AM »

Wasn't there something about that in the Torah? The guy who had only enough Trombotine for one gig, but the tube lasted for eight gigs?  Evil
I think every tube of Trombotine qualifies as miraculous. I've had mine for years of use, never even rolled it up past the end of the writing. Never seen anyone else's rolled up more than about one-third of the way after hearing the player say, "I've had this tube for twenty years or so..." Loaves and fishes indeed!  Good!   
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« Reply #30 on: Aug 25, 2009, 04:05AM »

Can we get back to the jokes? I prefer the jokes.  :-P

I don't think this has been mentioned yet - If we didn't have brass instruments as we know them now, what exactly were the "trumpets" that caused the fall of Jericho?

They could not have been trumpets.

Trumpets are cylindrical. 

Rams horns are conical.  These could have been cornets, but not trumpets. 

And yes, I realize I've just proven the bible false, but that discussion will have to be continued over in chitchat.

I suspect most early wind instruments were conical? 
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« Reply #31 on: Aug 25, 2009, 05:37AM »

They could not have been trumpets.

...
I suspect most early wind instruments were conical? 

Not necessarily.  The bone flute (not mentioned in the bible) is cylindrical.  It is made by hollowing out a leg bone and drilling some holes.

I think the trumpet found in Tut's tomb is actually cylindrical with an expanding bell.

Based on some pictures of the Roman Lituus and Tuba (not to be confused with a modern tuba) appear cylindrical with an expanding bell flare.

A ram's horn is naturally conical.  The traditional horn has no additional holes beyond the one you blow into and the one the sound comes out.  It was refined into the Cornetto, which has 6 holes for tone adjustment.
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« Reply #32 on: Aug 25, 2009, 07:10AM »

And so it was that a decree was issued by The Office of Noah to the leader Nebulon, and Nebulon gathered his minions together. "Rejoice!" he said, "for we have a Job! "And it is during the afternoon of a weekday, and it is the slow season!" And the men of the House of Nebulon did rejoice. "Is it a wedding?" one asked. "Is it a mitzvah?" cried another. "Is it a war?" tremulously asked another. "No. my children, it is a Corporate Gig. The client is the Pharaoh Ramesses, and it is the Dedication of his new Pyramid Complex!" And the men did dance for joy. "Gather your finest raiment and marshall the chariots, for we leave immediately!"cried Nebulon, "for we must cross the desert in order to make the hit on time!" And the musicians of Nebulon did scurry to their hovels and gather their finest clothing, and their instruments, and their water-bags and cheese-wheels, and all set off across the Great Desert, and their number was great. Presently they arrived at The Pyramid Complex, whereupon they were stopped by a Warrior. "What business have you here?" he asked, eyeing the horde with suspicion. "We have no need of more slaves, as the Pyramids are completed." "We have come to provide music for the Pharaoh," Nebulon told the guard. "I am the Great Leader Nebulon, of the House of Noah the Contractor." "Wait here," the guard said, and rode off to get clearance.

Two days did the host of Nebulon wait until the guard returned, saying, "You are to go to the Pyramid of Cheops for your Security badges." "Our thanks, esteemed guardian," said Nebulon, and they set off for the Pyramid of Cheops. And it was not until the setting of the sun that they arrived at the Pyramid of Cheops. "We are of The House of Noah the Contractor, and we have arrived to play music for the great Pharaoh 5 days hence. We have come for our Security badges."

"Wait here," the guard said, and rode off for instructions. At dawn he returned with a scroll of papyrus. "Enter here all of your names, as well as descriptions of your musical instruments, and the license plates of your chariots, and the names of your horses." With much grumbling this was done. And each man was given a medallion of copper to wear about his neck at all times, upon penalty of death. "And now thou art to take your chariots to the Pyramid of Khufu, there to unload your equipment." "And we are to perform there?" asked Nebulon, with hope in his voice. "Truly I know not," saith the guard, "but I have heard whispers in the winds that the pagaent is to be held at the Pyramid of Gizeh." "Then may we not take our instruments and chariots directly to that Pyramid?" "It is not my job to know anything," the guard said, and wandered off to cook a jackal to break his fast.

And so the men went to the Pyramid of Khufu, and indeed were made to unload their instruments, the horns of brass and the reeds, and the drums and cymbalons, and the bells and ouds and zithars and santours and zarbs, and made to carry them by hand to the Pyramid of Gizeh, a mile away. And when they had arrived at the Pyramid of Gizeh with their horns of brass and the reeds, and the drums and cymbalons, and the bells and ouds and zithars and santours and zarbs, they were met by a Flunky who inquired of Nebulon, "Art thou the band?" And this is how Nebulon acquired the name He Who Seeth Not The Forest For The Trees, for he replied, "Yes, we are." The Flunky looked them over with dismay, for they were dusty and their feet bled and were bound by rags. "I think I shall put you in the corner."

So the Men of Nebulon did set up their instruments, their horns of brass and the reeds, and the drums and cymbalons, and the bells and ouds and zithars and santours and zarbs, in the corner, and settled in to wait for the appearance of the Pharaoh. But presently did appear a stunning young woman who sniffed the air with suspicion, and asked for Nebulon. "Who told thou to set up here?" she cried. "This is all wrong!" "But it was certainly your Flunky who instructed us thus," moaned Nebulon, prostrating himself at her feet. "No, no, and no! You will have to move to the other side of the Pyramid!" "But is that not the side that the sun shines on at noon?" cried a sideman. "That is no concern of mine," said the Party Planner. "That is where you will look the best." "But is that not next to the Plain of Camel-Herders, who curse and beat their animals all day long?" cried another sideman. "Then thou will have to play loud, I guess," said the Painted Woman. "And is not the pagaent to take place here?" asked Nebulon. "Yes, but thou are hired merely for atmosphere. And by the way, where are your turbans? Did we not ask for turbans? Get thee hence!"

And she left to consort with a hyena, and the men of Nebulon got hence. And so for three days the Band of Nebulon did play in the sun for the Camel-Herders and the occasional lost guest, and for the jackals and vultures, and during the night they were assailed by the Women Who Sold Themselves and by Thieves and Cut-throats. And they ate sand and the occasional sand-rat, and had no wine to drink. And some of the men did slip away into the night to become Bedouins, and to raid caravans. And on the last day of the gig did finally appear the Great Pharaoh Ramesses, who looked drunkenly upon them, and inquired of no one in particular, "We had a band?" And then he staggered back to his guests. And so it was that The House of Noah the Contractor and The House of Nebulon the Bandleader were able to say that they had worked for The Great Pharaoh.

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« Reply #33 on: Aug 25, 2009, 07:45AM »

You ought to give credit to Steve Hashimoto, who wrote a bunch of different "biblical" gig stories (including the one you just plagiarized):

http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/su/cja/hash.html
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« Reply #34 on: Aug 25, 2009, 08:30AM »

but what did the critic say about the performance?
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« Reply #35 on: Aug 25, 2009, 08:53AM »

but what did the critic say about the performance?

You know about critics, don't you?

If the drummer can't keep time you take one stick away and make him the Conductor.
If the conductor still can't keep time you take away the other stick and make him a Critic.
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« Reply #36 on: Aug 25, 2009, 09:28AM »

You know about critics, don't you?

If the drummer can't keep time you take one stick away and make him the Conductor.
If the conductor still can't keep time you take away the other stick and make him a Critic.


and increase his/her income as a result.
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« Reply #37 on: Aug 25, 2009, 06:22PM »

You ought to give credit to Steve Hashimoto, who wrote a bunch of different "biblical" gig stories (including the one you just plagiarized):

http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/su/cja/hash.html

Plagiarism is such a nasty word, Guttman. 

From Wikipedia: Plagiarism, as defined in the 1995 Random House Compact Unabridged Dictionary, is the "use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own original work.

All credit to SH and my recommendation to read the rest of The Book of Jobbing.
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« Reply #38 on: Aug 25, 2009, 07:49PM »

Plagiarism is such a nasty word, Guttman. 

From Wikipedia: Plagiarism, as defined in the 1995 Random House Compact Unabridged Dictionary, is the "use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own original work.

All credit to SH and my recommendation to read the rest of The Book of Jobbing.

Without the attribution it's plagiarism.  As a matter of fact, Hashimoto has allowed anybody to quote his Book of Jobbing in entirety as long as he is credited and it is shown as Copyright 1999.  So next time please give proper attribution.

If you had submitted that in a college paper they would have flunked you.
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« Reply #39 on: Aug 25, 2009, 08:15PM »

Without the attribution it's plagiarism.  As a matter of fact, Hashimoto has allowed anybody to quote his Book of Jobbing in entirety as long as he is credited and it is shown as Copyright 1999.  So next time please give proper attribution.

If you had submitted that in a college paper they would have flunked you.


Attribute this Guttman.
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« Reply #40 on: Aug 25, 2009, 08:31PM »

Attribute this Guttman.

Down, boy.  You may have one black dog, but I have two. :)

I'm not suing you, and I doubt Ken Hashimoto will either.  But I have been dealing with a bunch of college papers and plagiarism is a very common word here.
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« Reply #41 on: Sep 08, 2009, 09:06PM »

This is a bit far afield from brass instruments but here's the oldest musical instrument found so far


Flutes offer clues to stone age music


I find that very mind-blowing to know that someone was making and playing flute music 35,000 years ago. I wonder what the tunes were like.
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« Reply #42 on: Sep 09, 2009, 05:44AM »

This is a bit far afield from brass instruments but here's the oldest musical instrument found so far
I find that very mind-blowing to know that someone was making and playing flute music 35,000 years ago. I wonder what the tunes were like.

Logic may have nothing to do with it, but it just seems logical to me that drums would be first.  There are so many survival activities that require whacking something with something else, it just seems reasonable to me that early man would have noticed a melodious clunk from certain objects and experimented. 
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« Reply #43 on: Sep 09, 2009, 06:45AM »

talking about ancient man's development of music, in this case, a massed chior, has anyone else watched Mel Brooks' "History of the World- Part I"

Sid Ceasar, playing a cave man character, discovered musical note(s) by accident when he dropped a stone on another caveman's foot and liked the sound produced.  He developed the theory of a massed chior by having multiple stones dropped on different caveman (woman) feet at the appropriate time.

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« Reply #44 on: Sep 09, 2009, 12:49PM »

Quote
This is a bit far afield from brass instruments but here's the oldest musical instrument found so far...
Logic may have nothing to do with it, but it just seems logical to me that drums would be first...

And maybe they were, but "found so far" is the limiting phrase here.

It's unlikely a drum would be made of materials as durable as a bone flute, so 35,000 year-old drums probably won't be found.

That NYTimes article originally had a link to a clip of someone playing a reproduction of another found bone flute and the scale sounded a lot like the diatonic scales we have today, which i also find mind blowing.

I suppose they fashioned the flute to match the scales they were already using in their songs. I wonder what songs were like 35,000 years ago?
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« Reply #45 on: Sep 09, 2009, 02:27PM »

talking about ancient man's development of music, in this case, a massed chior, has anyone else watched Mel Brooks' "History of the World- Part I"

Sid Ceasar, playing a cave man character, discovered musical note(s) by accident when he dropped a stone on another caveman's foot and liked the sound produced.  He developed the theory of a massed chior by having multiple stones dropped on different caveman (woman) feet at the appropriate time.



I'm still waiting for History of the World - Part II
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« Reply #46 on: Oct 06, 2009, 09:16AM »

There are different approaches to translating texts.

Now, metalic, chromatic slide instruments in the Bible?  No.

But they had aerophones ("brass").  They had little, high pitches ones ("trumpets") and larger, lower pitched ones ("big trumpets").  The different sounds of these different instruments had different meanings and were used in different ways, something still understood at least through the days of Mozart and Berlioz, if no longer today.

So when they translated the Hebrew as "sackbut" or "posaune" it wasn't an exact literal translation, but could arguably be considered an excelent functional translation for the times.

They read out the scriptures 400 years ago, and the congregation understood the priests were blowing the large, sacred horns - the posaunes! - and, because they were blowing the posaunes, it was an act of worship.  Intuitive!

Today we read our "acurate" literally translated scripture in church - "they blew on big rams' horns".  I can't help but wonder if the image in the mind of the modern congregation is: "the priests turned the amps to eleven...".

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« Reply #47 on: Oct 06, 2009, 03:23PM »

In the 4th book of Moses (The Book Of Numbers) there is mentioned the material and purpose of some horn instruments:

10:2 "Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps." (King James version)


So, before the events of Jericho they had these one-piece "brass" instruments made of silver.
(Sterling, perhaps ;-) )
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« Reply #48 on: Oct 06, 2009, 08:15PM »

If you look at the brass tradition in russia it is based on this. Tzar Nicholas II (i think) handed out silver trumpets (and in at least one case a trombone) to military units of distiction. To have a silver or multiple silver trumpets was to have  a better unit, it is quite probable that this was still true around the time of the Rimsky-korsakov trombone concerto and that all brass were silver instruments untill Willie Brandt entered russia in the 1930s(?). If you want more evidence check my thesis in the Rimsky-Korsakov trombone concerto thread this is just off the top of my head.
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« Reply #49 on: Oct 07, 2009, 04:04AM »

I doubt it was Nicholas II.  He began his reign late in Rimsky's career or after it and had an unfortunate experience with some rebels in 1917.  Might have been Alexander II (who was assassinated by a bomb in 1880 or so).
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« Reply #50 on: Oct 07, 2009, 08:55AM »

off topic, sorry, but what else is new....


to be correct, Czar (Tzar) Nicholas II "most unfortunate experience" must have been right before he and his family (with rumoured exceptions) and others were executed (murdered) by their Bolshevik captors whoe were fearing that Royals would be rescued by approaching "White" forces

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/nicholas.htm

this was some months after the abdication and establishment of a democratic government which was then overthrown by Lenin and his Bolsheviks.

The Germans allowed Lenin to cross borders in a sealed train to get to Russia in hopes it would lead to the end of Russia's involvement in WW I.  That plan worked.  Just think would Russia had gone communist if the Germans had not done that?


(oh, I hope I didn't push this thread into "Purely Politics")
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« Reply #51 on: Oct 07, 2009, 08:46PM »

Just double checked, it was Alexander I in 1812
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« Reply #52 on: Oct 08, 2009, 02:38PM »

off topic, sorry, but what else is new....

The Germans allowed Lenin to cross borders in a sealed train to get to Russia in hopes it would lead to the end of Russia's involvement in WW I.

I wonder what made a "sealed" train?  Locks?  Wax?  Tupperware?

If his goal is to get to Russia and the train is going to Russia he's not going to get out midway and not go to Russia.

And if the seal was to keep Russians from finding Lenin on board, why does that work? 

"This enemy train car has a seal on it, Ivan, don't look inside."

And how is it there is passenger train service between two countries at war?



 
Quote
That plan worked.  Just think would Russia had gone communist if the Germans had not done that?

I'm going to guess there wasn't any shortage of fervent comrades to rise up in his place if he hadn't made it back.

But that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" plan didn't pan out for the Germans 25 years later.


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« Reply #53 on: Oct 08, 2009, 02:48PM »

this author apparently disagrees.



The Sealed Train

They transported Lenin in a Sealed Train
like a plague bacillus from Switzerland to Russia.
—WINSTON CHURCHILL, World Crisis


http://yamaguchy.netfirms.com/7897401/pearson/pearson_index.html

it looks like the book is on line for viewing if interested.
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« Reply #54 on: Oct 08, 2009, 05:03PM »

Of course Luther`s German version of the Bible has "Laut wird die Posaune klingen, alle hin zum Throne zwingen" for the famous Latin "Tuba mirum spargens sonum". The trumpet shall sound, but in German it`s a trombone.
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« Reply #55 on: Oct 09, 2009, 11:02AM »

this author apparently disagrees.



The Sealed Train

They transported Lenin in a Sealed Train
like a plague bacillus from Switzerland to Russia.
—WINSTON CHURCHILL, World Crisis


http://yamaguchy.netfirms.com/7897401/pearson/pearson_index.html

it looks like the book is on line for viewing if interested.

Thanks, I will read that with great interest.

Skimming it, it seems "Sealed" was more symbolic than actual:

Quote
Once all the passengers were aboard, three of the four external doors to the carriage were locked.  The fourth, opposite the officers’ compartment, was left unlocked, but this was on the German side of the white line, so lip service at least was paid to the idea of the Russian confinement within the coach until they reached the Baltic.  According to Kharitonov,6 no one bothered to lock the doors on the other side of the carriage, which opened directly from the compartment, either because these were forgotten or because it was felt that the principle had already been met.

But very interesting to see the round-about route from Switzerland to Russia.


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« Reply #56 on: Oct 09, 2009, 12:08PM »

it possibly could be explained by the rail roads, or lack of rail transport in Eastern Europe and Russia at the time.  The goal was to reach St. Petersburg after all which is Russia's window on the Baltic and where the action was at the time.

just a guess on my part
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« Reply #57 on: Oct 09, 2009, 05:37PM »

A sealed train means it makes no stops from its origin to its terminus and doesn't take on or drop off passengers.

Switzerland was a neutral country.  Lenin could board the train, which was nomially a Russian Flag train.  By agreement with Germany, the train was granted passage through all German-controlled territory provided it made no stops other than the obvious refueling.  The Russian side was somewhat chaotic and the train actually did not need to make any stops there.

If you are thinking the train was hermetically sealed and the occupants had to hold their breath for the couple of days of transit, you are reading more into it than there was.
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« Reply #58 on: Oct 09, 2009, 06:55PM »


If you are thinking the train was hermetically sealed and the occupants had to hold their breath for the couple of days of transit, you are reading more into it than there was.


I've ridden on a few Russian trains. Just the idea of hermetically sealing a compartment which inevitably contains at least one inebriated unwashed person who insists on eating "kolbasa" and "salo" is enough to make my stomach turn.
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« Reply #59 on: Oct 10, 2009, 08:14AM »

As a history buff, I am as fascinated by the tidbits about Russian history as anyone--perhaps more than some. But I'm putting on my moderator hat on now. Please do not add any more comments on the subject to this thread. In fact, since it has no bearing on the history of the trombone at all, if there is any interest in continuing it, please go to another room. It looks to me like a Chit Chat topic.

Thanks.
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« Reply #60 on: Oct 10, 2009, 08:39AM »

(sounds of brakes squeeling)

ok
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« Reply #61 on: Oct 17, 2009, 02:20PM »

As far as I have read the bible (the old testament in Hebrew- that's what we learned at school). The word trombone is not mentioned in it.
The word trombone is of Latin origins and the bible has very few words originated in Latin if any. There are some greek words but also not too many. The Hebrew word for trumpet "Hatzotzra" is mentioned a few times and it is believed that the meaning of it is some kind of a Shofar as people here have described before.
I guess that the trombone is considered "biblical" because the use it had in churches in Europe when it was the only instrument that was strong enough to play stronger than choir and could easily tune up with the choir.
Anyhow, the Hebrew version of the bible doesn't contain the word trombone.
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« Reply #62 on: Oct 17, 2009, 02:32PM »

The Hebrew word for trumpet "Hatzotzra" is mentioned a few times and it is believed that the meaning of it is some kind of a Shofar as people here have described before.


Perhaps a slide Shofar? "And thou shalt build it of four legbones, two which slide easily over the other two, with a hollowed rib bone connecting the larger legbones. The inner diameter of the inner legbones shall be .547. Maketh not thy legbone larger than .547, which will make a sound like unto an enraged dog when bad men aboundeth in thy neighborhood. Also, maketh not thy legbone smaller than .547, which is what hath been called a shooter of lentils and which is meritless for all but those who playeth Dixieland."
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« Reply #63 on: Oct 17, 2009, 07:05PM »

O Lord, pray be specific with thy lightening bolts and hit me not whilest chastising Euphanaisa.

Amen
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« Reply #64 on: Oct 21, 2009, 05:56PM »

As far as I have read the bible (the old testament in Hebrew- that's what we learned at school). The word trombone is not mentioned in it.
The word trombone is of Latin origins and the bible has very few words originated in Latin if any. There are some greek words but also not too many. The Hebrew word for trumpet "Hatzotzra" is mentioned a few times and it is believed that the meaning of it is some kind of a Shofar as people here have described before.
I guess that the trombone is considered "biblical" because the use it had in churches in Europe when it was the only instrument that was strong enough to play stronger than choir and could easily tune up with the choir.
Anyhow, the Hebrew version of the bible doesn't contain the word trombone.

I certainly can't read it in Hebrew, but I have a good concordance, which shows the same thing. In my book (soon to have to be called my first book) I reproduce some scholarly articles from the leading 18th-century German encyclopedia. The author(s)write extensively about the use of the trombone in the books of Moses. Luther frequently used "Posaune" where English Bibles use "trumpet." The Hebrew word you mention is one case. The shofar is quite literally a horn, but it's called a trumpet in English and a trombone in German.
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« Reply #65 on: Oct 22, 2009, 05:14AM »

Ah translations... once again they've made to trombone look kind of cool.
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« Reply #66 on: Oct 22, 2009, 03:36PM »

wrong

trombones are cool Way cool

trombonist are cool too Way cool Way cool

"we don't need no stinking translations" (bad misquote from the "Treasure of the Sierra Madres") to make them or us cool.
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« Reply #67 on: Oct 22, 2009, 07:54PM »

I certainly can't read it in Hebrew, but I have a good concordance, which shows the same thing. In my book (soon to have to be called my first book) I reproduce some scholarly articles from the leading 18th-century German encyclopedia. The author(s)write extensively about the use of the trombone in the books of Moses. Luther frequently used "Posaune" where English Bibles use "trumpet." The Hebrew word you mention is one case. The shofar is quite literally a horn, but it's called a trumpet in English and a trombone in German.

Your argument assumes that the instrument Luther and his contemporaries referred to as a "posaune" was identical to our the instrument we refer to as a "trombone": an assumption that, given the incontrovertible  evidence of the linguistic evolution of the term posaune, is highly improbable.

I suggest that you investigate the etymology of the German word posaune AND spend some time perusing 15th and 16th century German art depicting of Engel mit Posaunen, starting with the illustrations that appear in Luther's Die gantze Heilige Schrifft: Deudsch 1545 and Albrecht Dürer's DIE APOKALYPSE (Apocalipsis cum figuris: Die Heimliche Offenbarung Johannes), um 1497/98--particularly the woodcut Die Posaunenengel, as well as 15-18th century German ecclesiastical statuary, because that artwork demonstrates conclusively that the instrument Luther and his contemporaries referred to as Posaunen were NOT sackbuts or trombones.



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« Reply #68 on: Oct 22, 2009, 08:14PM »

I suspect David is quite familiar with that information.  I also think you're misreading what he said.
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« Reply #69 on: Oct 23, 2009, 07:06AM »

I suspect David is quite familiar with that information.  I also think you're misreading what he said.

In his Aug 10 contribution to this thread, David wrote:

Quote
Remember: the Moravians were German. Well into the 19th century, their services were in German, not English. "Trombone" is not in any English Bible I know of, but "Posaune" is all over the German Bible.   That may be one reason why German-speaking people kept using the trombone when nearly everyone else had abandoned it.

In his most recent post, he wrote:

Quote
I certainly can't read it in Hebrew, but I have a good concordance, which shows the same thing. In my book (soon to have to be called my first book) I reproduce some scholarly articles from the leading 18th-century German encyclopedia. The author(s)write extensively about the use of the trombone in the books of Moses. Luther frequently used "Posaune" where English Bibles use "trumpet." The shofar is quite literally a horn, but it's called a trumpet in English and a trombone in German.

Given the title of the thread, it is at least reasonable to infer that his contributions support the claim that trombones appear in the Bible, whether or not that that inference is correct.

Quite apart from the factual issue of what the horn is called in German–-it' is NOT called a "trombone," it's called a "Posaune"--the primary implication of his statement is that because the Luther used the word Posaune to render the various Hebrew and Greek words rendered as "trumpet" in English, Luther and subsequent German writers were referring to trombones. The fact that Reformation-era German art and illustrations of Posaunen depict an instrument that is recognizably not a trombone or a sackbut suggests quite the opposite.

While it may be the case that a Twenty-first century native German language speaker "sees" a "trombone" when she reads or hears the word "Posaune" in a biblical text, that if of no probative value in establishing what instrument Reformation-era native German readers and speakers,—or 18th century German encyclopedists, for that matter—"saw" when they heard and used the term in religious contexts.
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« Reply #70 on: Oct 27, 2009, 12:43PM »

Your argument assumes that the instrument Luther and his contemporaries referred to as a "posaune" was identical to our the instrument we refer to as a "trombone": an assumption that, given the incontrovertible  evidence of the linguistic evolution of the term posaune, is highly improbable.

My argument assumes nothing of the kind. Luther used the word "Posaune," and whatever he meant by it, it was understood as the modern trombone by the writer(s) in Zedler's encyclopedia. The fact that it is necessary to do some kind of linguistic research to find out that Luther did not have the modern trombone in mind indicates that German-speaking people to this day probably envision the modern trombone whenever they read "Posaune" in Luther's translation (or any modern translation based on it.)

The translators of the King James Version certainly knew  nothing of our modern B-flat trumpets when they chose "trumpet" to translate the same Hebrew and Greek words. They may or may not have realized that the trumpet of their own day was different from the trumpets of the ancients, but I expect that any 17th-century English illustrations of biblical scenes have 17th-century English trumpets in them.

I think everyone can agree that, in fact, no instrument named in the Bible--in whatever language it's in--is the same as whatever modern instrument (if any) goes by that name. The harp David played for Saul didn't have pedal mechanisms, and differed from modern harps in other fundamental ways as well. Maybe it wasn't actually a harp at all, for that matter.
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« Reply #71 on: Oct 27, 2009, 02:31PM »

I think everyone can agree that, in fact, no instrument named in the Bible--in whatever language it's in--is the same as whatever modern instrument (if any) goes by that name. The harp David played for Saul didn't have pedal mechanisms, and differed from modern harps in other fundamental ways as well. Maybe it wasn't actually a harp at all, for that matter.

I don't understand all you all say, my english is not so good :/
Any way I think I agree with that you say... we can't pretend to fing Trombone (not even tronpet  Evil) in the bible. If that book is half old that is supposed to be at least...
I think what whe are looking here is a "trombone kind" instrument. Something that works with a slide and makes great noises!!! You know, not a trombone but a kind of flute with a slide would be good enought...
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« Reply #72 on: Oct 28, 2009, 04:52AM »

Given that the first evidence we have of any kind of sliding mechanism to adjust pitch dates from the mid 1400s, and the first instance of valves dates from somewhere around 1830, I doubt that any instrument called "trumpet", "trombone", "posaune", or whatever has any similarity to the modern instrument.

Just as an example, the Romans had an instrument called the "Tuba" which was about the length of a French Horn and had no valves.  The instrument we know of as the Tuba dates from the middle of the 19th century; it's the youngest of the brass family.

We do know the Egyptians had a brass instrument; one was found in King Tut's tomb.  But it had no valves, keys, holes, or any other way to adjust pitch; it would be a sort of signaling bugle.

I would doubt that Joshua and his ragtag band of freed slaves would have the technology to make a brass instrument.  I think they capped out with hollowing out a ram's horn to make a shofar.  My guess is that the instruments that are blown are variants of the shofar.
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« Reply #73 on: Oct 28, 2009, 07:32AM »

I would doubt that Joshua and his ragtag band of freed slaves would have the technology to make a brass instrument.  I think they capped out with hollowing out a ram's horn to make a shofar.  My guess is that the instruments that are blown are variants of the shofar.

Quote

If they had the technology to fashion silver hatzotzra, the metal accoutrements that of the tabernacle, and bronze implements, that they are reported to have fashioned, it is not unlikely that they had the technological capability to fashion musical instruments out of brass.

My argument assumes nothing of the kind. Luther used the word "Posaune," and whatever he meant by it, it was understood as the modern trombone by the writer(s) in Zedler's encyclopedia. The fact that it is necessary to do some kind of linguistic research to find out that Luther did not have the modern trombone in mind indicates that German-speaking people to this day probably envision the modern trombone whenever they read "Posaune" in Luther's translation (or any modern translation based on it.)

Which is what makes your statement:

The shofar is quite literally a horn, but it's called a trumpet in English and a trombone in German.

even more inexplicable, since, by your own admission, Posaune in German Bibles does NOT refer to a trombone.

I think everyone can agree that, in fact, no instrument named in the Bible--in whatever language it's in--is the same as whatever modern instrument (if any) goes by that name. The harp David played for Saul didn't have pedal mechanisms, and differed from modern harps in other fundamental ways as well. Maybe it wasn't actually a harp at all, for that matter.

I suspect that if you research the various Hebrew, Aramaic, Septuagintal, and Koiné terms for idiophones—bells, cymbals, gongs, tambours, etc.[/]—and representation of those instruments in ancient iconography and compare them with the names of the instruments as they are commonly rendered in modern translations, you will find that the probability of correspondence between the ancient and modern instruments to approach 1.000.
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« Reply #74 on: Oct 28, 2009, 07:19PM »

fsung, he's explained himself quite well... you're now just being obtuse. 
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« Reply #75 on: Oct 29, 2009, 01:51PM »

fsung, he's explained himself quite well. 

Nope.

He's explained why the instrument referred to in the German Bible as a posaune is NOT a trombone, and why modern German readers probably assume that it refers to a trombone when the word appears in the German Bible, but since he appears to have already known that, he hasn't explained why HE said it's called a trombone when he knows that not to be the case.

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« Reply #76 on: Oct 30, 2009, 03:39AM »

Nope.

He's explained why the instrument referred to in the German Bible as a posaune is NOT a trombone, and why modern German readers probably assume that it refers to a trombone when the word appears in the German Bible, but since he appears to have already known that, he hasn't explained why HE said it's called a trombone when he knows that not to be the case.


These two quotes from dguion (one of our most knowledgable members about historical stuff) seem perfectly understandable to me. 

Quote
Trombone" is not in any English Bible I know of, but "Posaune" is all over the German Bible.  Clever That may be one reason why German-speaking people kept using the trombone when nearly everyone else had abandoned it.

Quote
The shofar is quite literally a horn, but it's called a trumpet in English and a trombone in German.

Probably nobody here thinks there were actual slide trombones used in Biblical times, everybody now knows some Bibles do contain the word trombone.  Auf Deutsch, natuerlich!

The KJV Bible also uses the word dragon to refer to any animal the translators didn't recognize. 

Both words are likely to pose a problem for fundamental literalist Christians, and not likely to be a problem for moderates, atheists, and other religions.  But that discussion is better on Chitchat, there's already a topic. 

What is new is the speculation that Moravian trombone usage may have been affected by the mistranslation in the German Bible.  That's a fascinating idea, if Dave didn't mean it tongue-in-cheek. 

And it would seem to be directly relevant to the topic.  Trombone in the worship tradition is a significant part of trombone history. 

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« Reply #77 on: Nov 19, 2009, 08:08AM »

1. The trombone did not exist in any form until many centuries after the Bible was compiled.
2. Therefore, the trombone is not used or described in the Bible.
3. Translators of the Bible have never been required to be experts in archeology, anthropology, or any other discipline that would give them detailed knowledge of social customs, technology, musical performance practice, etc. In fact, those disciplines did not exist in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries when the translations we are talking about were produced.
4. For whatever reason, Luther chose to use "Posaune" and the translators of the KJV chose to use "trumpet" to describe instruments that were not trombones or trumpets in the modern sense of the term.
5. It is unreasonable to suppose that that fact would keep readers from assuming that the words mean the same thing in the Bible as in their own experience.
6. When did I ever call the biblical instrument a trombone as if it actually had a slide? What other word am I supposed to use when describing the influence of these translation choices on the people who read and studied the translations? 
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« Reply #78 on: Nov 19, 2009, 09:32PM »

4. For whatever reason, Luther chose to use "Posaune" and the translators of the KJV chose to use "trumpet" to describe instruments that were not trombones or trumpets in the modern sense of the term.

And quite rightly so, since neither Luther nor the translators of the KJV were moderns, nor were they possessed of modern sensibilities.

Quote
5. It is unreasonable to suppose that that fact would keep readers from assuming that the words mean the same thing in the Bible as in their own experience.

ONLY if one assumes that the biblical text is read in isolation from and in ignorance of Judeo-Christian iconography, art, and illustration which, even in 18th and 19th century children's Bibles, not to mention 19th through 21st century children's Sunday School literature, depict shofarim as ram's horn trumpets or straight natural (valveless) horns, thereby making it abundantly clear that the modern brass instruments called "trumpets" and "Posaunen are NOT the referents of the biblical text.

Visit any 2nd, 3rd, or 4th grade Sunday School and ask the children to draw pictures showing Gideon blowing a trumpet or the priest blowing the trumpets at the walls of Jericho. I guarantee that 90% plus who have attended Sunday School for more than a year will NOT draw instruments that look like modern trumpets.

Quote
6. When did I ever call the biblical instrument a trombone as if it actually had a slide? What other word am I supposed to use when describing the influence of these translation choices on the people who read and studied the translations? 

"Although the German Bible frequently uses the word Posaune—the Modern German term for "trombone"—to translate various Hebrew terms for keyless trumpets fashioned from bone, metal, or animal horn (hatzotzra, yobel, shofar, etc.), the development of the trombone postdates the transcription of the biblical text into its canonical form by upwards of a millennium."
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« Reply #79 on: Nov 20, 2009, 05:48AM »

Quote from: fsung
the development of the trombone postdates the transcription of the biblical text into its canonical form by upwards of a millennium."

Technically correct, but very inaccurate with respect to this conversation.

The canonical form was reasonably well established by 397 CE, though some changes continued.  That would have been too early for the trombone.

But Luther's German translation was in the 1500s, and now your case vanishes. 

fsung's position near as I can tell rests on the theory that medieval Christians were sophisticated enough to take the Bible nonliterally and to realize that Posaune probably really meant shofar.  But he has yet to cite any evidence in support of that assumption.

In fact, Luther wrote at a time when less than 10% of the population was literate, and books were far too expensive for any but the very wealthy to own. 

It seems more likely that anyone who associated the word Posaune with the then current shape of the trombone would have assumed the Biblical word meant the same.  Given that, it is not unlikely that this translation choice influenced behavior towards the usage of the trombone in liturgy, as I think David is suggesting.

When the King James Version was translated, the editors used "dragon" when they didn't know what animal was meant by the original word.  Did that mean dragons existed?  Yes, to a lot of Christians, then and now.   

Even today when we hear Handel's Trumpet Shall Sound from Messiah most believers picture a Bach Stradivarius in sterling silver.  Many wear a cross unaware that the Biblical word translated cross actually means tree or stake, another example of a translation choice affecting modern behavior. 
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« Reply #80 on: Nov 20, 2009, 07:01AM »

More likely it's a linguistic choice.  Posaune is a cognate of buccina, the Roman signal trumpet.  Of course the "last trumpet" of I Corinthians is salpinx, which was a straight signal trumpet (equivalent to the Roman tuba, I think?), not curved like a buccina, but it's been pretty well established that Luther wasn't a musicologist or a military historian.

That doesn't excuse using the same word to translate Old Testament passages.
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« Reply #81 on: Nov 20, 2009, 08:42AM »


It seems more likely that anyone who associated the word Posaune with the then current shape of the trombone would have assumed the Biblical word meant the same.  Given that, it is not unlikely that this translation choice influenced behavior towards the usage of the trombone in liturgy, as I think David is suggesting.
 

Thanks, Tim. And not only did common people assume on the basis of Luther's translation that the ancients had the modern trombone (and on the basis of the KJV that the ancients had the modern trumpet, etc.), but so did all of the most erudite scholars until late in the 19th century.
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« Reply #82 on: Nov 21, 2009, 04:47PM »

so did all of the most erudite scholars until late in the 19th century.

ALL of them? Really? Including David ben Naphtali Fränkel, David Friedländer, Solomon Dubno, Moses Mendelssohn—whom the eminent German philosopher Immanuel Kant referred to as "the German Socrates"—and the Bi'urists, 18th century Germans all)?  Or perhaps you don't consider German Jewish scholars erudite?

So maybe the "scholars" you cite weren't as erudite as they pretended to be and as you assume.
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« Reply #83 on: Nov 21, 2009, 05:30PM »

I think David was referring to scholars who worked from the Greek versions of the Bible.

All of the Jewish scholars from Maimonides on (and even going back further) worked from the Bible in Hebrew and read the mistranslated word in a more original form.

It's the translation done by Luther that gave us the Posaune for a wind instrument, and the translators of the King James Version who gave us the Trumpet for the same instrument.

Note that in Luther's day the trombone (posaune) was a rather new invention.
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« Reply #84 on: Nov 23, 2009, 12:22PM »

I think David was referring to scholars who worked from the Greek versions of the Bible.

Since David explicitly cited shofar as the HEBREW term translated Posaune[/i and Luther translated the First Testament from Hebrew, David must be a very incompetent communicator if he was referring ONLY to scholars working from the Greek version of the Bible.
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« Reply #85 on: Nov 23, 2009, 03:05PM »

okay, so which of David's posts has your panties in a wad, because it appears you were referring to his last post - which has no mention of the word shofar...

or are you guilty of the same poor communication perhaps?

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« Reply #86 on: Apr 13, 2010, 09:51PM »

I have belatedly discovered this topic and have read the threads so far. Nobody has mentioned the Vulgate translation so far.  Am I mistaken that Luther was working from Jerome's (Latin) Vulgate translation, and that he simply used "posaune" as the closest to the Latin busin/buccina/etc. ?
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« Reply #87 on: Apr 14, 2010, 05:39AM »

I have belatedly discovered this topic and have read the threads so far. Nobody has mentioned the Vulgate translation so far.  Am I mistaken that Luther was working from Jerome's (Latin) Vulgate translation, and that he simply used "posaune" as the closest to the Latin busin/buccina/etc. ?

We have a Lutheran minister here (Trav1s) and I believe he mentioned it.  Good point, though.  Since the slide was not developed until 2000 years after the Old Testament and 1500 years after the New Testament, it's unlikely that Joshua was toting some ultra-heavy duty sub-contra-bass trombones to knock down the walls of Jericho.
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« Reply #88 on: Apr 14, 2010, 05:48AM »

Luther's translation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther_Bible
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