Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

950028 Posts in 62841 Topics- by 15177 Members - Latest Member: Hank K
Jump to:  
Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: modes of scales  (Read 5843 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
tbonerocks
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Apr 25, 2009
Posts: 36

View Profile
« on: Jul 24, 2009, 10:24AM »

Where can i find PDFs of modes and scales?
Logged
ElijahClark

*
Offline Offline

Location: Seattle, Wa
Joined: Aug 10, 2007
Posts: 302
"Trombonist, Educator of Soundz, Highly Interested"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #1 on: Jul 24, 2009, 10:51AM »

www.outsideshore.com has a jazz improvisation primer that includes a list scales and modes and uses for them in a tonal improvisation context.

good luck,
Eli
Logged

www.elijahclarkmusic.com

All my hipster friends think the trombone is cool, I do not agree.
actikid
*
Offline Offline

Location: Indianapolis
Joined: Dec 30, 2001
Posts: 10562

View Profile
« Reply #2 on: Jul 24, 2009, 08:40PM »

http://phillipsguild.org/modechart.html

http://phillipsguild.org/keychordrelationships.html

http://phillipsguild.org/commonscales.html

http://phillipsguild.org/docs/CommonScales.pdf

http://phillipsguild.org/resourcescalepractice.html
Logged

Where was Blackwater on the morning of September 11, 2001?
EddieN
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Jun 11, 2009
Posts: 57

View Profile
« Reply #3 on: Jul 27, 2009, 02:11PM »

You're looking for all those modes each spelled out in the 12 different keys? I did a pretty thorough search but came up empty, not even in treble clef. A guy on the bass forum I visit was asking for the same thing just yesterday.

I did recently come across a book that, as I recall, contained all this info plus many other scales, pentatonics, exotics, etc. but I'll be double damned if I can remember the exact title. It wasn't trombone specific but was for bass clef instruments in general. Google wasn't much help again. If I drop into the shop I found it in again soon I'll post the exact title in here.

You could, uh, DIY.  Don't know
Logged
BatidoDeCarne
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Nov 8, 2005
Posts: 207

View Profile
« Reply #4 on: Jul 27, 2009, 04:31PM »

Quote
I did recently come across a book that, as I recall, contained all this info plus many other scales, pentatonics, exotics, etc. but I'll be double damned if I can remember the exact title. It wasn't trombone specific but was for bass clef instruments in general. Google wasn't much help again. If I drop into the shop I found it in again soon I'll post the exact title in here.

You could, uh, DIY.  Don't know

I have a book called "Patterns for Jazz for Bass Cleff Instruments." It seems to be meant to be used roughly in order... it starts out by telling you to learn the chord notes and what those notes are, and then has some patterns bassed on triads (it starts you out and then has you "improvise" it in different keys). Then it moves onto some scale patterns which you have to "improvise" or transpose a more complicated scale pattern, after which point... well actually I have no idea. There are some pretty foreboding looking charts further through it, but when I got it I didn't even know the chord notes, so I sure don't understand some of the stuff in this book. I've found it helpful, though.

This appears to be the same book. Dunno if it's what you're talking about.

http://www.amazon.com/Patterns-Jazz-Bass-Jerry-Coker/dp/0769230172

If you simply wanted charts of scales this is a bad bet. The scales are covered and there's a nice table of  contents, but there's so much more to it than that. I showed it to the guy who gives me lessons (not really a jazz player) and he pointed out that while it was placed in a jazz setting, it really would be beneficial for anyone to go through this book.
Logged
CaptainMorgan
« Reply #5 on: Jul 27, 2009, 06:33PM »

I honestly might advise not reading them, rather just know them, and learn to play them through knowing them.  You'll learn them more effectively, and memorize them faster, that way.

There are 2 ways of thinking of each scale, one is relative to a major scale (I.E. a major scale with certain altered tones) and the other is simply knowing which major scale your mode is representing (I.E. which scale degree you're starting on, and of which scale). 

I tend to use the later approach for most of the modes in my head (except lydian, and sometimes mixolydian if I'm playing a blues...) because generally the modes are best utilized over a chord with the root that IS the dictatorial starting note of your learned modes, in relation to the tonic key.  For example, if you have a chord progression that goes like Em7 / Am7 / Dm7 / G7 / CMaj7, and C is the tonic key, the chords are iii-, vi-, ii-, V7, IMAJ, which means that you would use the modes starting on those scale degrees in the key of C.  Make sense?

So to think of the modes:

C Ionian = C Major

C Dorian = C Major Scale with a flat 3rd and 7th; OR a Bb scale, starting on C

C Prygian= C Major Scale with a flat 2nd, 3rd, 6th, and 7th; OR an Ab scale starting on C

C Lydian = C Major Scale with a sharp 4th; OR a G scale, starting on C

C Mixolydian = C Major Scale with a flat 7th; OR an F scale starting on C

C Aeolian (or Natural Minor) = C Major Scale with a flat 3rd and 7th, or an Eb scale starting on C

C Locrian = C Major Scale with a flat 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, or a Db Scale starting on C


I'm sorry if this post was a little out of the ballpark, but what I was basically trying to say is that you should learn them in your head, not from paper, and it will definitely help you in the long run!
Logged
AxSlinger7String

*
Offline Offline

Location: Mashpee
Joined: Nov 24, 2005
Posts: 643

View Profile
« Reply #6 on: Jul 27, 2009, 08:20PM »

Have fun!  I have no problem with anyone using this for whatever they wish as long as they are not directly reproducing and selling it.  You may use it for personal practice/study, to distribute as a resource for any students you may have, or to wrap a gift in.  And let me know if there are any errors, it would not be difficult for me to edit it and post a new version.

-Chris
Logged
SandyMBarrows
Sanctification in Progress

*
Offline Offline

Location: DFW Area
Joined: Jan 17, 2003
Posts: 1286
"Professor 'Add Junk'"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #7 on: Jul 27, 2009, 11:35PM »

They are available via link to Sibelius on my web site........click on link below.....

Logged

Kindest regards, and BLESSED DAY!!
-Sandy
Retired Pilot, Instructor,
Freelance Low Brass DFW Area

Miraphone Soprano, Shires Alto, .547 TruBore, Michael Davis  .495, Bass dependent TruBore
DE Mouthpieces/Giddings-Webster
EddieN
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Jun 11, 2009
Posts: 57

View Profile
« Reply #8 on: Jul 28, 2009, 05:01AM »

This appears to be the same book. Dunno if it's what you're talking about.

http://www.amazon.com/Patterns-Jazz-Bass-Jerry-Coker/dp/0769230172


Naw, not exactly the same book but probably the same info inside. Others here seemed to have it covered anyway.  Good!
Logged
BatidoDeCarne
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Nov 8, 2005
Posts: 207

View Profile
« Reply #9 on: Jul 28, 2009, 09:00AM »

Quote
Naw, not exactly the same book but probably the same info inside. Others here seemed to have it covered anyway.

Eh, I figured it was worth a shot. I was once ventured into a city and found it at a music store there so I don't really know much about it relative to other books.

Quote
I honestly might advise not reading them, rather just know them, and learn to play them through knowing them.  You'll learn them more effectively, and memorize them faster, that way.

...

I actually find this very helpful. I recently decided that I need to learn my minor scales ASAP and the page I looked them up on encouraged thinking of them in terms of the major scales. So when I finish that I can do it for all the scales.

If someone says "Learn all the scales" it's kind of a "arrrghhh" thing but this looks like a nice way to approach it.
Logged
actikid
*
Offline Offline

Location: Indianapolis
Joined: Dec 30, 2001
Posts: 10562

View Profile
« Reply #10 on: Jul 28, 2009, 09:58AM »

If someone says "Learn all the scales" it's kind of a "arrrghhh" thing but this looks like a nice way to approach it.
It is actually a lot simpler than even that.  There are only 12 notes in the western system, not counting octaves.  That is all you have to learn.  The scales are simply different ways of arranging those notes.  If you learn those 12 notes -- I mean REALLY learn them -- all the scales happen automatically.

Scales are just an entry point into the broader understanding of the notes and how they fit together. 
Music played diatonically -- moving linearly up and down the scales -- is usually quite boring.  Beyond a certain point, scale practice becomes a hindrance more than a help because it may reinforce the habit of diatonic playing. 

Sure, learn the scales, but plan to move beyond that as quickly as you can.  In my way of thinking, a key to the "beyond" is interval-based thinking.  From any starting note, you should be able to play any interval up or down -- INSTANTLY -- without having to analyze it.  Just like scales, some intervals are easier than others, not because they pose a particular technical problem, but because we don't practice them.  For example, just about everybody can play down a half step or a whole step.  Piece of cake, right?

Well, you should be able to play up or down a tritone, augmented 5th or flat 9th just as automatically.

And if you can do that, I guarantee that you can play any scale, not just the most commonly taught 7 modal scales.  After all, any scale is nothing more than a sequence of intervals.
Logged

Where was Blackwater on the morning of September 11, 2001?
CaptainMorgan
« Reply #11 on: Jul 28, 2009, 12:15PM »

I must be honest, I have never thought of it that way!  But it seems very valid.  I think each individual musician has a different way of thinking about it.  The trick of course is to find the method that works best for you (because not all of the best solutions will be the same for each player).
Logged
ArtL
*
Offline Offline

Location: Oklahoma
Joined: Feb 24, 2008
Posts: 8

View Profile
« Reply #12 on: Jul 28, 2009, 01:08PM »

When I first started exploring scales and modes, one approach that helped me get the sound in my head was to start with a major scale (ionian mode).  Then, using the same group of notes (in that key), you go (using F as our key):

F to F: Ionian
G to G: Dorian
A to A: Phrygian
Bb to Bb: Lydian
C to C: Mixolydian
D to D: Aeolian
E to E: Locrian

To remember the order, think "I Don't Play Loud Music At Lunch."

Now, to recall a particular mode, there is some mental math, but say, you need an F Mixolydian mode. Think of the key where F is the fifth note of the scale.  It is the 5th note of the key of Bb, so use that key.  If you are comfortable with your key signatures, this should be no problem.

From here, I was able to internalize the sound of each mode and eventually move into thinking of them in terms of intervals as others have mentioned above.  This was a way for me to just get the sound of modes in my head.

In fact, no PDFs are necessary.  You've probably played this type of exercise over and over.  It is the basis for most of the Arban or Rubank Advanced Method scale exercises.

Good luck and have fun,

Art
Logged

...we are not yet what we shall be, but we are growing toward it...
Martin Luther
BFW
Pun Gent

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Alabamor
Joined: Aug 24, 2002
Posts: 21984
"Paronomasiacs Homonymous"


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: Jul 28, 2009, 01:34PM »

I'd just like to point out that scales are one thing and modes are another.  Modes are a form of tonality, not scale, although there is an associated scale.  Just like it is possible to play a scale from G to G in a melody that's in D major, it's possible to play the same scale in a melody that's in E dorian.  The passages will sound the same if you're only listening to the individual notes, but the two melodies have different key centers (probably indicated by the melodic and harmonic context), and so will sound different that way.

I disagree a little with actikid's excellent post.  I agree that learning to play (and hear and sing and identify) intervals is an important skill, but so is learning to deal with diatonic passages.  They can be played purely by interval, but by doing so you are failing to make use of some of the information available to you.  "Go up a fifth" is important; so is "play the tonic."

And "play the tonic" means something different in a mode.  If you were to play that G to G scale and accent the tonic, you'd accent the D in one instance and the E in the other.  Do you hear the D as tonic, do you feel the centered-ness of the note when playing in D major?  When you switch to E dorian, can you switch your sense so that you now feel the centered-ness of E, and can you hear the B as the dominant?  That is the mode, regardless of where in the diatonic sequence you start or end a scale.

Sure, there is plenty of music with shifting tonality, or with ambiguous or vague tonality.  In such music, it can be difficult to use key sense as a means for producing the pitches.  But there's plenty of music that is quite definitely in a key (major, minor, or otherwise) for long enough stretches that key sense is extremely useful.
Logged

Brian

Our supreme responsibility is the moral obligation to be intelligent. -- Oliver L. Reiser
BatidoDeCarne
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Nov 8, 2005
Posts: 207

View Profile
« Reply #14 on: Jul 28, 2009, 01:36PM »

It is actually a lot simpler than even that.  There are only 12 notes in the western system, not counting octaves.  That is all you have to learn.  The scales are simply different ways of arranging those notes.  If you learn those 12 notes -- I mean REALLY learn them -- all the scales happen automatically.

...

If you had said this to me a year ago it would have been gibberish, but I think I can see where you're coming from. I've even done a bit on my home attempts to improvise with the fifth- I know what a fifth sounds like relative to any note and I know when I want to start, end, or transition a phrase using a fifth (I often try to get to the chord root beforehand). I guess that's something to build up, though, and learning the scales is probably a good way for me to build it up, even if the scales aren't an end.

Although I've recently been listening to some stuff with improvised background lines and a lot of the time people mostly play up and down different scales for those, while the people improvising the melody are... melodic. >_< Scale based ideas seem to be appropriate for some situations, though.
Logged
actikid
*
Offline Offline

Location: Indianapolis
Joined: Dec 30, 2001
Posts: 10562

View Profile
« Reply #15 on: Jul 28, 2009, 02:07PM »

Although I've recently been listening to some stuff with improvised background lines and a lot of the time people mostly play up and down different scales for those, while the people improvising the melody are... melodic. >_< Scale based ideas seem to be appropriate for some situations, though.
The education industry manufactures thousands of players every year that perform this way.  Diatonic lines are fine up to a point, but before long, the whole world sounds like Kenny G.  Of course, a person can go too far the other direction.  Thelonius Monk was intense to listen to because he was so far the other direction, but I find that music inherently more interesting.

It is not an either-or thing.  You can do both.  One exercise I like to do is to do scale practice, but put interval jumps into each scalar line.  You can do that either chromatically or diatonically.  For example, a diatonic scale with fourths in C might go like C F D G E A F B G D A E C, and then descending likewise with the 4ths jumping down.

The same exercise with perfect 4ths could be going up C F D G E A F Bb G C A D B E C,
and down C G B F# A E G D F C E B D A C

It gets a little more interesting with 6ths or augmented 5ths.  Try them all, and do them in all 12 keys.  Don't let the muscle memory lock you into all linear patterns.
Logged

Where was Blackwater on the morning of September 11, 2001?
BatidoDeCarne
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Nov 8, 2005
Posts: 207

View Profile
« Reply #16 on: Jul 28, 2009, 02:33PM »

The education industry manufactures thousands of players every year that perform this way.  Diatonic lines are fine up to a point, but before long, the whole world sounds like Kenny G.  Of course, a person can go too far the other direction.  Thelonius Monk was intense to listen to because he was so far the other direction, but I find that music inherently more interesting.

It is not an either-or thing.  You can do both.  One exercise I like to do is to do scale practice, but put interval jumps into each scalar line.  You can do that either chromatically or diatonically.  For example, a diatonic scale with fourths in C might go like C F D G E A F B G D A E C, and then descending likewise with the 4ths jumping down.

The same exercise with perfect 4ths could be going up C F D G E A F Bb G C A D B E C,
and down C G B F# A E G D F C E B D A C

It gets a little more interesting with 6ths or augmented 5ths.  Try them all, and do them in all 12 keys.  Don't let the muscle memory lock you into all linear patterns.

Thelonius Monk is possibly my favorite person to listen to, along with Charles Mingus. I try to imitate Thelonius Monk in some ways even though I'm not trying to be Monk on the trombone, so I tend to get annoyed when I get caught up in scales. I thought I could fix this just by learning more scales but there's apparently more to it.

This last week I feel like I've gotten so much more I can do in regards to learning about jazz and my playing generally. At first jazz seems like this quasi-mystical thing, but it becomes more real as time goes on and doors start to open for me to move forward. I will definitely try these things, along with learning the scales and modes.
Logged
BFW
Pun Gent

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Alabamor
Joined: Aug 24, 2002
Posts: 21984
"Paronomasiacs Homonymous"


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: Jul 28, 2009, 02:40PM »

Diatonic lines are fine up to a point, but before long, the whole world sounds like Kenny G.

To what extent is learning scales related to improvisation?  I would think that players who do not improvise also need to learn scales and intervals, but probably the specific needs are different.  Are modes only taught to jazz students?  Seems like they only come up in jazz-related discussions, but most of my work in modes was in theory classes (and about a different set of modes).
Logged

Brian

Our supreme responsibility is the moral obligation to be intelligent. -- Oliver L. Reiser
BatidoDeCarne
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Nov 8, 2005
Posts: 207

View Profile
« Reply #18 on: Jul 28, 2009, 02:46PM »

Quote
To what extent is learning scales related to improvisation?  I would think that players who do not improvise also need to learn scales and intervals, but probably the specific needs are different.  Are modes only taught to jazz students?  Seems like they only come up in jazz-related discussions, but most of my work in modes was in theory classes (and about a different set of modes).

I considered that I might be causing the topic to be hijacked from composition or whatever, but then the OP already got his scale charts so I figured it's okay.

I think it's directly related to improvisation to a large extent, but it's not only related to improvisation. Sort of like how the guy who gives me lessons said anyone would benefit from going through the jazz pattern book I have.
Logged
CaptainMorgan
« Reply #19 on: Jul 28, 2009, 05:30PM »

To what extent is learning scales related to improvisation?  I would think that players who do not improvise also need to learn scales and intervals, but probably the specific needs are different.  Are modes only taught to jazz students?  Seems like they only come up in jazz-related discussions, but most of my work in modes was in theory classes (and about a different set of modes).

In my experience modes are taught in both Jazz and Symphonic schools (at least as far as the trombone is concerned), but in different ways.  Jazz musicians learn them relatively independently of one another and how they function specifically relative to the harmony over which they intend to utilize them, whereas Symphonic musicians tend to do the whole "revolving scale" technique which basically lends to becoming a better reader/player/listener because of basic knowledge of how the instrument plays going up and down.


As far as modal playing vs. not... I think that there are incredible players that do both, or only one of the approaches in their improvisations. Being a good or likeable improviser is really not related to one's choice to utilize scales more or less frequently when improvising, IMHO.  There are too many other factors.  Perhaps if an improviser was an otherwise "sterile" performer... had limited rhythmic vocabulary, and only used very specific scales in the same places in the harmony all the time, then you could make the case that their playing modally is negatively affecting their blowing.  I will say I play more modally than not, but as I choose not to multiple tongue when I'm playing I had to really really shed my modes at first to figure out where the natural breaks are on the horn so as to be able to do it at higher tempos.  But I use chordal approaches too, it really just depends on what I hear in my head and what type of tune I'm playing.
Logged
actikid
*
Offline Offline

Location: Indianapolis
Joined: Dec 30, 2001
Posts: 10562

View Profile
« Reply #20 on: Jul 28, 2009, 07:25PM »

To what extent is learning scales related to improvisation?  I would think that players who do not improvise also need to learn scales and intervals, but probably the specific needs are different.  Are modes only taught to jazz students?  Seems like they only come up in jazz-related discussions, but most of my work in modes was in theory classes (and about a different set of modes).
It is all music and the modes and scales occur in music of all kinds. 

You ask a great question.  My experience is that these things are emphasized MUCH more in the jazz curriculum.  This is probably because a certain amount of that is really necessary as a foundation for improvising. 

But understanding music at the "theory" or "architecture" level is good for ANY musician playing ANY kind of music.  OK, if you are playing in a 3-chord rock band, maybe theory can't add much.  But I can't begin to count the number of times I have gained a real appreciation and understanding of a classical composition as I began to recognize the architecture of the the composition.

I probably would not have any of that foundation if I had not studied jazz improvisation.  I would be interested in hearing if and how educators are having success integrating music theory into the study of classical works.
Logged

Where was Blackwater on the morning of September 11, 2001?
tbonerocks
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Apr 25, 2009
Posts: 36

View Profile
« Reply #21 on: Jul 29, 2009, 11:57AM »

i just need a site where i can finde all of the cales and modes on a pdf like at trombone.org/jfb but more than just minor and major scales
Logged
actikid
*
Offline Offline

Location: Indianapolis
Joined: Dec 30, 2001
Posts: 10562

View Profile
« Reply #22 on: Jul 29, 2009, 12:50PM »

i just need a site where i can finde all of the cales and modes on a pdf like at trombone.org/jfb but more than just minor and major scales

The Phillips Guild links I listed show you how to form the 7 modes that are based on the degrees of the major scale.  You don't need a PDF to figure out how to play these scales.  It is all right there.  You just need to transpose for each key.  For each different key, you have a new starting point, but the combination of intervals will be exactly the same.

Don't read it -- learn it.

Don't ask somebody else to learn it for you.  Learn it yourself. 

Take the time to figure it out.  Until you do that, you have not learned anything.

And, just for the record, those are not "all" the modes and scales.  There are dozens more, and they are a bit more obtuse, but all very interesting, and each has its own musical home.  I particularly enjoy some of the Jewish scales that are common in Klezmer music.
Logged

Where was Blackwater on the morning of September 11, 2001?
EddieN
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Jun 11, 2009
Posts: 57

View Profile
« Reply #23 on: Jul 29, 2009, 12:59PM »

i just need a site where i can finde all of the cales and modes on a pdf like at trombone.org/jfb but more than just minor and major scales


There was a link on Sandy Barrows' site: http://www.sibeliusmusic.com/index.php?sm=account.details&uid=42733

But what Actikid said is pretty good advice. Much the same advice that was given by some pro's to the bassist that I mentioned on page one that was looking for the same pdf's.
Logged
BFW
Pun Gent

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Alabamor
Joined: Aug 24, 2002
Posts: 21984
"Paronomasiacs Homonymous"


View Profile
« Reply #24 on: Jul 29, 2009, 02:48PM »

i just need a site where i can finde all of the cales and modes on a pdf like at trombone.org/jfb but more than just minor and major scales

In this post, AxSlinger7String went through some trouble, using Sibelius, to show all the standard modes (including major and natural minor) in all keys.  It's in treble clef; grab a piece of manuscript paper and write it out yourself in bass clef, or do it in notation software, or read it from treble clef.  (If you write it in notation software, post it here!  Good! )

The notes for all modal scales beginning on (for example) A look the same; they just use different key signatures.  Perhaps you could save yourself some time and effort by writing the notes once and the key signatures once, and pick one scale and one key signature.  Just write a cheat sheet.  AxSlinger7String's chart has all the information.

If you have a copy of Arban's or something similar, you can find exercises for various scales starting on different notes and pencil in which sequences correspond to which modes.

We have been assuming, reasonably, that your goal is to learn to play the various scales.  If so, learning them through construction is mostly likely going to be far more helpful than simply trying to memorize them without context.  That is why alternatives to having a comprehensive transcription of them have been discussed.  If it is not your goal to learn the scales, if you only wish to have a PDF file that shows the modal scales, my apologies, but I do hope you see that people's assumptions have been reasonable and their efforts are genuine (and good!) attempts at being helpful.

AxSlinger7String: once again, thanks for going through the effort of providing quite a comprehensive set of scales.  Your efforts are appreciated.
Logged

Brian

Our supreme responsibility is the moral obligation to be intelligent. -- Oliver L. Reiser
CaptainMorgan
« Reply #25 on: Jul 29, 2009, 03:13PM »


Don't read it -- learn it.

Don't ask somebody else to learn it for you.  Learn it yourself. 

Take the time to figure it out.  Until you do that, you have not learned anything.


Grsh.  Didn't I just say that?


I honestly might advise not reading them, rather just know them, and learn to play them through knowing them.  You'll learn them more effectively, and memorize them faster, that way.

:-P :-P :-P

Logged
actikid
*
Offline Offline

Location: Indianapolis
Joined: Dec 30, 2001
Posts: 10562

View Profile
« Reply #26 on: Jul 29, 2009, 06:54PM »

Grsh.  Didn't I just say that?
I was responding to a gentleman who asked a question after your post.  Obviously I agree with what you are saying.  Sometimes once isn't enough for a point to be taken seriously.
Logged

Where was Blackwater on the morning of September 11, 2001?
CaptainMorgan
« Reply #27 on: Jul 29, 2009, 08:49PM »

 ;-) I dig, I wasn't trying to get on your case or anything.  I was just laughing to myself at the situation.
Logged
oldskoolmark
*
Offline Offline

Location: Santa Cruz Mtns., CA
Joined: Mar 26, 2006
Posts: 369

View Profile WWW
« Reply #28 on: Aug 08, 2009, 08:28AM »

Mark Levine, in his Jazz Theory book recommends that you practice multi octave scales going up one mode and down the next. I.e. in C major: Ionian up, Dorian down, Phrygian up, Lydian down, Mixolydian up, Aeolian down, Locrian up, Ionian up. This helps you get the sense of how the modes relate to key.
Logged
AxSlinger7String

*
Offline Offline

Location: Mashpee
Joined: Nov 24, 2005
Posts: 643

View Profile
« Reply #29 on: Aug 09, 2009, 12:27AM »

Thanks for the kind words BFW, I was starting to think that no one noticed and hence would not get any use from my chart!  Here's a bass clef version, I guess I forgot who I was writing for; I just always have used treble for most single line theory stuff.  This one took about 2 mins to do, since I had the original .MUS file to edit, I just think that more people should be able to open PDF's.  :)
Logged
virtualhaggis

*
Offline Offline

Location: ...adrift in a sea of relativism...
Joined: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 1909

View Profile
« Reply #30 on: Aug 18, 2009, 08:27AM »

I attended a jazz improv workshop at the Edinburgh Jazz festival a couple of weeks ago, run by my friend Haftor Meboe. He explained modes from a completely different paradigm. He drew a large sun on the white board, and a couple of feet below, a large moon. Sun = light and moon = dark. The modes can be described from the most light (= most major = the most sharp (compared to other modes)) to the most dark (everthing flattened.

The most sharp mode is Lydian: a major scale with a #4th. Going from light to dark:

LIGHT :D

Lydian: Major scale with sharp 4th
...now flatten the 4th to get ...
Ionian: Major scale
...now flatten the 7th to get ...
Mixolydian - dominant major
...now flatten the 3rd to get ...
Dorian - from here on, everything is minor
...now flatten the 6th to get ...
Aeolian
...now flatten the 2nd to get ...
Phrygian
...now flatten the 5th to get ...
Locrian

DARK :cry:

but you can carry on ...

...now flatten the 1st to get ...
Lydian: but a semitone lower than you started!!!

and then carry on to go through all 12 keys! Do you notice the pattern: 3-6-2-5-1. Seen this before?

The advantage of this method is that it frees you from this all-the-white-notes-start-from-X-and-going-up-an-octave mindset.

This was really a "ping" moment for me. And a "holy cow!" moment. Until then, to visualise modes I pictured the piano keyboard in my head to work out whether the next note would be a whole or a half step - and then transpose the thought into whatever key I was in. A nightmare, in short. Now I just learn which notes I need to flatten (apart from Lydian with 1 sharp).

And the order of memorising the modes is now more logical to me: Lydian, Ionian, Mixolydian, Dorian, Aolian, Phrygian, Locrian - based on successively more flats rather than the abstract "just the white notes" idea.

And I don't need any PDFs now (sorry AxeSlinger)! Just memorise the simple rules and then pratise, practise, practise (still to do the last bit  :/).
Logged

Life... is like a grapefruit. It's orange and squishy, and has a few pips in it, and some folks have half a one for breakfast.
Douglas Adams
actikid
*
Offline Offline

Location: Indianapolis
Joined: Dec 30, 2001
Posts: 10562

View Profile
« Reply #31 on: Aug 18, 2009, 10:12AM »

The modes can be described from the most light (= most major = the most sharp (compared to other modes)) to the most dark (everthing flattened.
That is as very interesting way to look at it. 

In our local urban school district, there is a splinter group of 3 schools that offer a quasi-Montessori style of instruction.  Even though the district is on the wrong side of a major demographic shift, they are finding that people are actually MOVING INTO this urban district in order to have their kids attend one of the schools, or one of the many other magnet programs they offer. 

The central premise for this particular program is that we all operate under MULTIPLE intelligences, so there are many non-traditional ways to absorb knowledge.  This particular method seems a bit more analytical than I might use, but I bet there are many people for whom this would be the breakthrough making it all fit together.
Logged

Where was Blackwater on the morning of September 11, 2001?
virtualhaggis

*
Offline Offline

Location: ...adrift in a sea of relativism...
Joined: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 1909

View Profile
« Reply #32 on: Aug 18, 2009, 11:31AM »

Haftor (the director of the jazz workshop) claims that you should try to get at least three different explanations of the same thing to understand it fully. I find this true of trying to learn most things.
Logged

Life... is like a grapefruit. It's orange and squishy, and has a few pips in it, and some folks have half a one for breakfast.
Douglas Adams
virtualhaggis

*
Offline Offline

Location: ...adrift in a sea of relativism...
Joined: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 1909

View Profile
« Reply #33 on: Aug 31, 2009, 02:10PM »

I just had another "aha" moment. I was explaining the method of looking at modes I described above - scrapping the usual order of listing the modes (in the key of C here) Ionian (C to C), Dorian (D to D), Phrygian (E to E), Lydian (F to F), Mixolydian (G to G), Aolian (A to A) and finally Locrian (B to B) - in favour of the order based on how many notes are flattened. The order, as I explained above, starts with Lydian, and then Ionian, Mixolydian, Dorian, Aolian, Phrygian and finally Locrian. Then I noticed that this sequence is 4-1-5-2-6-3-7. The cycle of 5ths (or 4ths) keeps coming back. This only helps me memorise.

I have had little comment on my post. I was wondering how the more experience jazzers view modes. Of course there are some that ignore modes altogether, but the ones that do use modes, do they view it the traditional way, or the light to dark cycle of 5ths way I described, both ways, or are they so ingrained that they don't think about them at all any more?
Logged

Life... is like a grapefruit. It's orange and squishy, and has a few pips in it, and some folks have half a one for breakfast.
Douglas Adams
TromboneMonkey

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Aug 16, 2009
Posts: 1637

View Profile
« Reply #34 on: Aug 31, 2009, 03:16PM »

To be honest I rarely think about them anymore.  And yes, I would say it is due in part to my being so intimate with the material that they sort of happen "automattically" over a particular harmony. 

Something that took me about two years to sus out, though, was the ability to (ideally) seamlessly move into and out of specific modal sounds in order to create relationships of "tension" and "release" between said sounds and the harmonic structure.   That is the hippest kind of thing.   Brecker was a master at this.  Dig "African Skies" off his Tales From the Hudson album.  The use of modal interchange for dissonant/consonant effect in his solo is PERFECT.
Logged

-John
virtualhaggis

*
Offline Offline

Location: ...adrift in a sea of relativism...
Joined: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 1909

View Profile
« Reply #35 on: Aug 31, 2009, 03:25PM »

Thanks TM, but what about the method you used to get them into your head? What worked best for you in terms of understanding them and then putting them into practise?
Logged

Life... is like a grapefruit. It's orange and squishy, and has a few pips in it, and some folks have half a one for breakfast.
Douglas Adams
TromboneMonkey

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Aug 16, 2009
Posts: 1637

View Profile
« Reply #36 on: Sep 01, 2009, 12:49AM »

Hmm, I'd say that I probably just learned the standard chord-scale relationships as instructed in the Aebersold book etc.  One thing that helped me simplify was the adoption of the thought process that centered around the fact that I only actually use about 5 scales; major, minor ( harmonic and melodic) wholetone, and diminished; and then just use the modes thereof.  And by that I mean I recognize each chord as relative to the tonic of a particular sound, and use the appropriate relative mode. 

Pertaining to that last thought process, I simplify by reducing chord progressions to their most basic function(in my head).  So in the key of C,  a Db7 chord going to C doesn't get a Db dominant sound, it gets a G dominant sound, because it's really just a V chord.  I then Just recognize the alterations I need to make to the G Dom sound to reflect the notes in a Db7.  Sounds complicated, but it basically reduces everything to tonic, dominant, subdominant relationships, necessitating only three types of mode functions instead of 20 something.  That way you can make little alterations to the three sounds to reflect the colors dictated by the music, instead of independantly learning the best places to utilize each individual mode.  So in your head instead of thinking "ok... D7#9#11, I need to go with... Oh yeah! Dominant diminished." you think "five chord, done. ". At that point it's more about training your ear to hear the colors and translate them from ear to slide, and less about counting whole and half steps.

Good luck!  Sorry if that was way confusing.   
Logged

-John
Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Up
Print
Jump to: