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Author Topic: Bach 16M vs Yamaha YSL-691  (Read 8178 times)
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Hornman805

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« on: Aug 20, 2009, 11:44PM »

Hello all

I've been comparing "Jazz" horns and have come to realize that medium small bore (.508-ish) is best for me. My gorgeous '47 Silvertone 2B (sold) was just too small and tight for me. Right now I'm doing all my playing on a Bach 36BG close wrap and bass playing on a Getzen 1052FD (which I love, BTW). SO, how would you stack the 16M against the 691? What are the different playing characteristics that you have noticed? Currently I'm so broke I can't even pay attention...BUT will start saving my pennies for a Jazz horn.

Thanks for your input.

Michael
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TromboneMonkey

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« Reply #1 on: Aug 21, 2009, 12:05AM »

Well the 691/891 is more like a 3b, and the Bach is a Bach.  What the 691 has going for it versus a 3b is a more modern sound, a lighter weight and feel, and a quick response that will blow your mind.  The Bach has more core, and it's a little easier to "lock in" to a specific sound, as many Bachs often are. Good response on it too, but it doesn't feel and play quite as "light" as the Yammy. 

The Yammy also has interchangeable leadpipes, which is cool.  I'd personally go with the Yammy over the Bach, but it's really a matter of personal choice.  In terms of who's using what, I'd say a lot of guys still use the Bach, but the new 891 is making a huge splash right now.  Really a nice modern sound on it.
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Dantheman

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« Reply #2 on: Aug 21, 2009, 12:41AM »

The Bach tends to be a little "over elegant" in my opinion.
I have never played the Yamaha so I can't give you a comparison, but I play a lot on 3Bs.

I love playing the Bach but find it too governing at times. ie. It doesn't let me get raucous when I need to. The 3B will take just about anything you give it and then some.
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Dukesboneman

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« Reply #3 on: Aug 21, 2009, 05:10AM »

Personally , I would take the Bach over a Yamaha any day.  I have a Bach 16M and love it. Mellow when I need it and really barks when asked to. I like how it blends with either a Trombone section or the 3 pc. section in the soul band I play in. Now , I put an H8 herrick leadpipe in mine and it really improved it. I don`t get along with the bach leadpipes. I haven`t played a yamaha in years but I remember just not liking them.
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DaveRussell
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« Reply #4 on: Aug 21, 2009, 05:48AM »

Another thing to consider is cost, as the bachs go for more, although they're not any more consistant in quality than the Yamahas. I wonder if the YSL-691 will start getting discounted since the new replacement for it (891Z) is now becoming available. For the $$$ a good used 3B would be a lot of bang for the buck, but 691's aren't near as common. Good luck! DaveR
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Dantheman

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« Reply #5 on: Aug 21, 2009, 06:02AM »

Personally , I would take the Bach over a Yamaha any day.  I have a Bach 16M and love it. Mellow when I need it and really barks when asked to. I like how it blends with either a Trombone section or the 3 pc. section in the soul band I play in. Now , I put an H8 herrick leadpipe in mine and it really improved it. I don`t get along with the bach leadpipes. I haven`t played a yamaha in years but I remember just not liking them.

I'm curious about the Herrick leadpipe you are using. How does it affect the play/sound/response of the 16m?
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yammy690+1
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« Reply #6 on: Aug 21, 2009, 06:38AM »

Another thing to consider is cost, as the bachs go for more, although they're not any more consistant in quality than the Yamahas. I wonder if the YSL-691 will start getting discounted since the new replacement for it (891Z) is now becoming available. For the $$$ a good used 3B would be a lot of bang for the buck, but 691's aren't near as common. Good luck! DaveR

I just bought a brand new Yamaha 691 from Prowinds $995.......I'm having really good results with this horn, I'm diggin the sound it gets...good feedback from fellow bone players. Never played a Bach 16 for any stretch, Bill W and Conrad H sound great on them, Birch J plays a 12 sounds fantastic....

 For $995 I had to buy that new yammy.....turned out to be a good buy.

Later
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Sammy99
« Reply #7 on: Aug 21, 2009, 07:02AM »

Since you can't afford to pay attention, Better go with the less expensive horn. You can worry about the esoteric differences after your boat comes in. Also, You'll have the pennies you need for the cheaper one much sooner.

2 cents
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TromboneMonkey

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« Reply #8 on: Aug 21, 2009, 10:38AM »

Another thing to consider is cost, as the bachs go for more, although they're not any more consistant in quality than the Yamahas.

If anything, I'd say that the Yamahas are way more consistently made.  Easily the most consistently made mass-produced axes out there. 
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cmillar
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« Reply #9 on: Aug 21, 2009, 01:08PM »

This spring, I got to try Yamaha's 891Z's vs. King 3B's (2103)...... I chose the King.

Even better, I now have a Herrick 8H leadpipe in the King....... very responsive like any Bach 16M with a Herrick..... (as I can recall from a long time ago).

I got a good deal on the King.... would I have chosen a Bach 16M?....... probably, if I'd gotten the same great deal.

Anyway, I'm diggin' the King 2103 with the Herrick 8H leadpipe!
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Driswood

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« Reply #10 on: Aug 21, 2009, 08:44PM »

This spring, I got to try Yamaha's 891Z's vs. King 3B's (2103)...... I chose the King.

Even better, I now have a Herrick 8H leadpipe in the King....... very responsive like any Bach 16M with a Herrick..... (as I can recall from a long time ago).

I got a good deal on the King.... would I have chosen a Bach 16M?....... probably, if I'd gotten the same great deal.

Anyway, I'm diggin' the King 2103 with the Herrick 8H leadpipe!

I'd have made you a much better deal on my 16M!!!   :D

Jerry Walker
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Dukesboneman

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« Reply #11 on: Aug 21, 2009, 08:46PM »

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,45965.0.html
If you check this thread, it talks about the Herrick H8 Leadpipe with the 16M
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Hornman805

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« Reply #12 on: Aug 21, 2009, 10:02PM »

I'd have made you a much better deal on my 16M!!!   :D

Jerry Walker

Have you got one for sale?
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Hornman805

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« Reply #13 on: Aug 21, 2009, 10:07PM »

Great responses. Thanks! In playing them both I agree with most of you. The 691 was fast and responsive! Good low and high...the middle was a little uncentered for me. Didn't "Lock in" as Monkey said. The Bach just sounds more interesting. More complex sound. Locks in; good pitch. I like both but for different reasons. I think I'll lean toward the Bach.

Thanks again,
   Michael
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Driswood

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« Reply #14 on: Aug 23, 2009, 08:14AM »

Have you got one for sale?

No, I sold it last year.

Jerry Walker
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anthony501

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« Reply #15 on: Sep 04, 2009, 09:20PM »

This spring, I got to try Yamaha's 891Z's vs. King 3B's (2103)...... I chose the King.


Hi,

I have a King 2103 too. And a student Yamaha 354.

How does the 891Z compare with the King 2103... why did you choose the 2103?

Anthony
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cmillar
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« Reply #16 on: Sep 05, 2009, 12:48PM »

Why'd I choose the King over the Yamaha?

Well, I liked the lower end sound of the King way better..... and the 'solidity' of it...... like the horn wasn't going to break up...... could push more into it.

Same for the high end.... could push more air into it... and even the stock leadpipe allowed me to play higher with more ease and better tone.

And the sound... well, I just like the sound of a King versus a Yamaha much better....... no matter the size of the King..... even if I'm out front listening to them both side by side.

Now that I have the Herrick leadpipe in it, it's even better...... beautiful...... again, that is, for me. Really opened up the horn is nice way, and gives that 'cozy' Williams-like feel to the horn.

Of course, this is all just me and what I'm after.

But get this twist..... I've settled on a Yamaha GP 48 mouthpiece though!.......love it.... have been using it exclusively without reservation or any second guessing......it's  working great for all styles of music and everything I do.... feels like a custom rim for me too!

I play all kinds of music, and don't want to switch horns for every gig...... unless I really need to use an F attachment. My training was originally legit and orchestral in nature, but as a pro freelancer, I play all other genres....... (or 'play at them' depending on the gig!)..... but I love all kinds of music...... kind of a problem........ life would be simpler if I only did one thing!

Bottom line, to me, the King over the Yamaha is just more musically and trombonistically (is that a word?) satisfying to play.
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Trombocholik

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« Reply #17 on: Sep 06, 2009, 09:50AM »

On Yamaha YSL-691 played J.J.Johnson.

But on Bach 16M played Bill Watrous and Conrad Herwig.

Everyone searches for that suits him more...
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TromboneMonkey

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« Reply #18 on: Sep 06, 2009, 11:35AM »

It also depends on how you intend to use it.  They actually all do different things better.  The exact reasons why an above poster chose a new 2103 is the reason I don't like them.  What makes them 'solid' for makes them difficult for me to use.  I found the same to be true with the shires.  If you intend to use the horn in a way that requires super fast flexibility, like I do with my improvosations, and that is the primary concern, which it is for me because I can just work my sound out later, you'll probably prefer the yammy.  And it has interchangeable pipes, facilitating the easy upgrade to more sophisticated ones at your discretion.
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anthony501

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« Reply #19 on: Sep 06, 2009, 05:19PM »

It also depends on how you intend to use it.  They actually all do different things better.  The exact reasons why an above poster chose a new 2103 is the reason I don't like them.  What makes them 'solid' for makes them difficult for me to use.  I found the same to be true with the shires.  If you intend to use the horn in a way that requires super fast flexibility, like I do with my improvosations, and that is the primary concern, which it is for me because I can just work my sound out later, you'll probably prefer the yammy.  And it has interchangeable pipes, facilitating the easy upgrade to more sophisticated ones at your discretion.

Very well said.  Good!
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