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The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentMouthpieces(Moderators: BGuttman, Doug Elliott) REVELATION!!!! (I have finally broken the mouthpiece code.)
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Chris Fidler

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« on: Aug 27, 2009, 02:16AM »


"You have to play a small mouthpiece with a  small bore."
"You have to play a big mouthpiece with a large bore."

A mantra instilled into most players from an early age!!!

So here's me for the last umpteen years........
Small bore always around the 7C mark
Large bore always around the 5G mark

8 million mouthpieces and lots of $$$  from various makers later I finally listen and take seriously what Doug Elliot has to say!!!

Never did I think that a much larger rim on BOTH horns would effortlessly move me to the next level........  Amazed

I have a 1/3 lower 2/3 upper type embouchure.
Doug says that this type embouchure functions better on larger rim sizes!!!
Yeah yeah yeah..... On a small bore playing lead trombone for a 5 hour gig, yeah right..... Yeah, RIGHT.

YOU BET YEAH RIGHT!!!!

I'm now on an LTS103 (26.16mm) rim for everything.

IT FLAT OUT WORKS!!!...... Bet on it...... ;-)

I used to blame leaky corners, poor flexibility and airy sound on not doing enough practice!!!

NAH.

This rim fits like a glove.
I feel soooo much more comfortable switching instruments.
Everything and i mean EVERYTHING has improved physically.

I'm playing a LTC/C2 on the small bore LTG/G8 on the large with an LTD/D2 on it's way.

Do yourself a favor........ LISTEN TO DOUG....... Clever

He knows what he's talking about.

Do you have a High placement embouchure and are struggling with an 11 or 7 sized rim????

Try a bigger rim size, DO YOURSELF A FAVOR....... You'll be betta off...... ;-)

Thanks Doug Elliot for making my tromboning life more bearable  :D :D :D :D

Best wishes,
Chris.

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The wise musicians are those who play what they can master.
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Slidennis

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« Reply #1 on: Aug 27, 2009, 03:04AM »

Man, I dig the humorous Sabutin's style!!!   :D Good!

I have a low placement, just working to strenghten my lower lip at the moment...

6.75 - 6.5 is my tenor size, not matter what...  2/3 low 1/3 high embouchure placement...
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« Reply #2 on: Aug 27, 2009, 05:31AM »

Doug Elliott set me on the same path, and boy did it make a huge difference for me as well!  Good!
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Bob Riddle

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« Reply #3 on: Aug 27, 2009, 09:27AM »

Use what works FOR YOU!
    Also Sam's words.Some players don't function well on a larger rim.
Not always because of comfort.When I went to the larger rim theory.All went well until my chops really became accustomed to it.Then my sound wouldn't get bright at a low enough volume level and I started drowning out entire bands (NOT GOOD!).so I went back to a smaller rim on the smaller equipment and "voila!" things turned around quickly.Side note: for me ,personally I kept getting comments about my notes weren't clipping as short as had previously been the case,before switching to the larger rim.Or, that I was not blending as well as I had in the past.Believe me,I had plenty of power.Even on my small group jobs,a good friend with whom I'd been working with for years stated that my sound was stronger and more powerful than ever.Great right!?! No!I started paying close attention to the audience reaction on my playing.I have always played certain styles all-out.Never had i experienced seeing so many people holding their ears or turning away.LOUDER IS NOT ALWAYS BETTER!.
       I'm glad your happy and hope this works out great for what you want to accomplish,but like everything else it doesn't work for everyone.
As with everything else,always have fun.
VHY
Bob
 









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Chris Fidler

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« Reply #4 on: Aug 27, 2009, 09:49AM »

The loudness, blending etc thing is not the issue here Bob.
That's a "musical" issue.
It's more to do with control.
If you can "control" a smaller rimmed mouthpiece then the smaller rim is your size.

Try everything, use what works!!!

This works for me and may well work for others.

Just passing on my experience :-)

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The wise musicians are those who play what they can master.
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Chris Fidler

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« Reply #5 on: Sep 07, 2009, 01:20PM »

It gets better and better!!!!

The best piece of equipment change I've ever made :-)

Hard and soft machine reach that elusive harmonic point.
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The wise musicians are those who play what they can master.
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Boss

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« Reply #6 on: Sep 08, 2009, 09:50AM »

Question:

How might one apply that philosophy to bass bone?

i have a similar placement to you, and have been plugging on a 1.5 for a while now, wondering if a slightly larger rim might be more efficient...
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Chris Fidler

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« Reply #7 on: Sep 08, 2009, 04:08PM »

Try it.

Or approach Doug Elliot.

It may well work for you, but you won't know until you try!!!
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The wise musicians are those who play what they can master.
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« Reply #8 on: Sep 10, 2009, 04:19PM »

Chris, I must say that my experience is exactly like yours. I actually got to spend the better part of a year sitting next to Doug on the "In the mood" show, touring the states by bus.
  He had with him all of his mouthpieces. He also spoke to me about the Reinhardt theory of Embouchure types. He would give me a new rim to play every few weeks. I started with his 100 rim (I was using another mouthpiece smaller than that before this) I was used to it in two weeks. At the end of the tour I ended up playing a narrow 103. Sometime after that I used an N104 and liked it even better.
  Of course I work for Warburton now, but I use Terry's biggest 'piece for small tenor and it works great for me.
  Every step bigger I went, everything got better for me in all aspects of playing. Yes there was some adjustment time, but really not too much.
  I owe Doug a lot for this. He has helped me immensely. I often refer people to him. I always tell people that the most important thing, is playing the right cup diameter (rim size) for your face. As Doug told me, if you play the wrong size for your face, somewhere down the road you will always run into trouble, and so was the case with me.
  If anyone has any inclination to talk to Doug about this, I highly encourage them to do so. YOU WON'T BE SORRY!!!!!!!!
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Chris Fidler

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« Reply #9 on: Sep 23, 2009, 03:00PM »

UPDATE..............

After spending some serious practice time on the 103 I've now gone onto a LT104/LTD/D2!!!!
This is where the journey ends :-)
Even better than the 103....... For me.

I never thought in a million years that this would be the right size for me.

Wow :-)

 
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The wise musicians are those who play what they can master.
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« Reply #10 on: Oct 02, 2009, 07:58AM »

Chris,

Funny your words may just have well been mine! I had the exact same experience. I called the 104, the final fronteir. Things were good with the 103 but after getting used to the 104, there was no going back! If I wasn't working for Warburton (And I am very happy with Terry's mouthpiece as well) I would be playing the same setup. Can't wrong there!!
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Chris Fidler

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« Reply #11 on: Oct 13, 2009, 07:25AM »

Last UPDATE.

After approx. 3 weeks on each rim the decision is made and I have opted for the LTS103.

I'd like to thank Doug for all his help and understanding.

My Elliot code now stands at LTS103/LTD/D2 or D3 and LTC/C2 or C3 for my Jazz horns.
And LTS103/LTG/G8 & LTH/H8 on my large bore.

That covers all my Tenor requirements :-)
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The wise musicians are those who play what they can master.
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Chris Fidler

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« Reply #12 on: Feb 26, 2014, 05:07AM »

Old topic BUT.....After slightly flirting with some other Mpc's I've returned to the above for the last 2 months and would like to reiterate my findings.......... Good!
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The wise musicians are those who play what they can master.
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daveyboy37

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« Reply #13 on: Feb 26, 2014, 10:57AM »

Glad to hear it's still working for you. Everyone is different, so it's important in many cases to throw away "conventional" wisdom and go to an expert like Doug and get it sorted out.

For me, a 3G rim is just too big for tenor parts. I tried it for a while but my high range was airy and I was losing endurance. going down to a 25.9mm mouthpiece, even though that's not a large amount, helped a whole bunch. It's amazing how such a small difference in size can make such a big difference.
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David Sullivan
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« Reply #14 on: Feb 26, 2014, 12:38PM »

I concur...

I play more 50/50 on my mouth... I have found that smaller pieces work better for me.  On bass I used to play a Schilke 60... then moved to an Elliott that was equivalent... then back to the Schilke... then moved to a Yeo... then to Griego .75... then to Ferguson/Reynolds (love the sound... but the rim size is too wide)... Now I've finally figured it out... back to Elliott and I am on a W111/M/M9... About the same size as a 1 1/4, but with a deep cup. (I thought a 110 would work, but it's slightly too narrow).

On large tenor I used to play 4G sized mouthpieces... now I play a Ferguson 1, which is perfect for me... it is about the size of a 6 1/2.

On small tenor I used to play 11C sized mouthpieces... now I'm playing an Elliott 95/B/B2 (similar to a Bach 17) I also use this on alto...

I used to always go with the "bigger is better" philosophy... but not anymore.  It just doesn't work for me.



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Matt K

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« Reply #15 on: Feb 26, 2014, 01:01PM »

Old topic BUT.....After slightly flirting with some other Mpc's I've returned to the above for the last 2 months and would like to reiterate my findings.......... Good!

Don't use the Greg Black pieces you got a few months ago anymore? (Or were they copies of your current rim? I've forgotten!)
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Chris Fidler

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« Reply #16 on: Feb 26, 2014, 01:49PM »

My Greg Black cups have Doug's screw rims!!!

Greg's Cups have a larger throat, good for some things but not everything.
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The wise musicians are those who play what they can master.
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Matt K

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« Reply #17 on: Feb 26, 2014, 02:29PM »

I know the feeling! I've been using a Griego 3M threaded for his rims for the last few weeks that I really like for legit stuff, but it doesn't work for everything.
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What's in a name? that which we call a tenor-bass posaune
By any other name would smell as sweet;
Chris Fidler

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« Reply #18 on: Feb 27, 2014, 03:26AM »

I tend to use the GB medium weight cup on my R1 which is what it was made for....... Good!

Doug's LTE/E4 works great on my R3

The crux of the matter is that as long as you are comfortable on a particular rim then the relevant changes to cup and back bore are a more important matter to whichever size instrument you are working on!!!

YMMV
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The wise musicians are those who play what they can master.
Duke Ellington
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« Reply #19 on: Feb 27, 2014, 07:40AM »

The crux of the matter is that as long as you are comfortable on a particular rim then the relevant changes to cup and back bore are a more important matter to whichever size instrument you are working on!!!

Yeah, this is the part that interests me. I think the idea of playing on a single rim regardless of horn/bore size sounds crazy, but I'll just accept that it will work for the moment, without being able to actually try it without a fairly substantial outlay of cash.

Say you've got a 547 large shank, 525 small shank and 508 small shank. And you're playing on the LT103 rim. Do the cup sizes get shallower for the smaller horns? Can you talk a little about how you decided the cup depth. I know Elliott says he plays the same rim for everything from 547 to alto. I'm just wondering how that works without destroying the upper range and overall sound quality on the smaller horns. I'm genuinely curious, because I'm investigating replacing a whole squadron of mouthpieces with just a few mpc components for better consistency.
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