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The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentInstruments(Moderators: tbone62, Greg Waits) What can be done to a new model 12 to improve it? UPDATE SOLD! 9-21-09
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Author Topic: What can be done to a new model 12 to improve it? UPDATE SOLD! 9-21-09  (Read 1236 times)
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Sammy99
« on: Sep 19, 2009, 10:12PM »

I have a new model 12 I got a year and a half ago from the HornGuys.

It doesn't really blow as well as some other model 12s in my memory. I can't put my finger on it, but something is lacking.

If I really wanted to go all out to soup this one up, what might I do, have done, etc.


Or should I just sell it and forget it?
« Last Edit: Sep 21, 2009, 07:25PM by Sammy99 » Logged
Dantheman

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« Reply #1 on: Sep 19, 2009, 11:00PM »

I think 12s are great horns but it takes a while to learn to play them.
 I have an LT12G which seems to play better without the counterweight. I have a yellow bell as well which I like but the gold brass sounds more expensive for want of a better term. More dark. More elegant.
 Now I really like that dark sound on a ballad in a studio or microphone situation, but find I'm usually buried too easily  in a big band scenario. I say usually because the trumpeters around here are going crazy with weighted horns. This makes them sound darker and lets me blend better with them on my Bach.

Having said all that, the Bachs have a tendency in my opinion to bark a little at loud volumes. Also I find the slotting not as good as on my King 2B+.
Conversely, my 12 is the most open blowing .500 bore that I have ever played.

Assuming you've checked for leaks etc. and the horn is in good shape, a different leadpipe would be the first obvious physical change to the instrument that I would make. Try a light weight slide or a standard weight slide depending on what you're playing on now. This will also make a dramatic difference. I have a light weight slide on my 12 but I imagine a standard brass slide might improve it for me.


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prototypedenNIS
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« Reply #2 on: Sep 19, 2009, 11:05PM »

It's easier to suggest a fix if you know what the problem is.

Is it sealing properly.
Is the leadpipe poorly soldered (gob in the pipe) also check tuning slide.
Does the lacquer appear too thick?
Are you comparing an old beat up horn with a pristine horn?
Did you order with non-standard options?

I could go on, but there's many different problems that could be there but this will probably take trial and error to fix or, it could just be a dud, with one defective part.

Is it less resonant?
Is it less free blowing?
Does the partial slotting seem unbalanced or off?
Intonation?
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denNIS
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« Reply #3 on: Sep 19, 2009, 11:15PM »

It's easier to suggest a fix if you know what the problem is.

Is it sealing properly.
Is the leadpipe poorly soldered (gob in the pipe) also check tuning slide.
Does the lacquer appear too thick?
Are you comparing an old beat up horn with a pristine horn?
Did you order with non-standard options?

I could go on, but there's many different problems that could be there but this will probably take trial and error to fix or, it could just be a dud, with one defective part.

Is it less resonant?
Is it less free blowing?
Does the partial slotting seem unbalanced or off?
Intonation?

All good points. Don't assume if it was new when you bought it that it was problem free. A lot of horns come out of the factories with birth defects. Ask me how I know.  >:(
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WaltTrombone
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« Reply #4 on: Sep 20, 2009, 06:00AM »

If it was from Hornguys, it'd be less likely to have some sort of factory-induced problem, IMO. Not saying it couldn't sneak by them, just not as likely. Dennis is on the right track, can you help narrow it down? You can also try swapping around the bell and slide with another small bore Bach, see what happens.
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Walter Barrett
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slidehamilton
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« Reply #5 on: Sep 20, 2009, 02:39PM »

I have quite a lot of experience now playing Bach horns. I own quite a few and can tell you that in my opinion, they all can blow pretty vastly diffrent from one horn to the next. Even if they are the same model and are made close to the same time. I am very fond of the model 12 and feel it's one of the best all around horns made. If I were you, I think trying lead pipes would make the greatest difference. If you pull the pipe that's in it and put a collar on it, you won't lose that one and it then gives you the chance to try a bunch of different pipes. A lead pipe can really make or break a horn. I play a Brasslab pipe in my 12 and it blows great! Real open and centers great! One nice thing about having interchangable pipes is that it also makes the horn easier to clean. You won't get all that corrosion around the lead pipe like when they are soldered in (this of course is not always the case but I think horns are prone to this if the are soldered in. This by the way is not coming from me but from my reapir tech Bruce Belo who I think is very the best!)
  Chuck McAlexander is the guy who ownes the brasslab and is very good with helping guys out with these issues. You might also try some of the pipes at the hornguys. They carry the Kanstul pipes and are very good as well. 
  I hope this helps you.
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schiffko

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« Reply #6 on: Sep 21, 2009, 01:55PM »

contact chuck mcalexander at the brasslab. he is the man to call if you have leadpipe issues. his pipes are not cheap but worth every cent. call hi and tell him your needs but i think a more open pipe will help. try his standard versions first. not the heavyweight ones. Good!
i know the problem with bach horns. in 99% of the problmes the pipe is the thing which causes trouble and lets your horn not play as good as it should.......
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a new mouthpiece solves all problems for three weeks...that is why I switch every TWO!!!
Sammy99
« Reply #7 on: Sep 21, 2009, 07:27PM »

Thank you for your replies.

A chance to sell found me at rehearsal, so I took it.

Now I'll concentrate on the new Black Bird of Fire!!!

And is she ever HOT!!!!!!
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Bach42T
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« Reply #8 on: Jan 13, 2018, 12:00PM »

Who was the new Black Bird of Fire?
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Pre59

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« Reply #9 on: Jan 13, 2018, 12:25PM »

Has the high Bb in 3rd issue been fixed?
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In my reality..
Dukesboneman

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« Reply #10 on: Jan 13, 2018, 01:23PM »

I currently have 2 12`s. One is a Lt12G with a Kanstul W6 leadpipe. This really opened up the horn.
Mt other 12 which I just bought last summer is a yellow brass bell/standard weight slide - no lead pipe change. It`s a 1966
1st year of production in Elkhart.
Looks like Mount Vernon parts /assembled in Elkhart.  Tried at a friend` shop and had to have it.
The Lt12G didn`t play well (for me) with the standard leadpipe. It was unfocused and got nasty pretty quick. The W6 darkened it and opened it.
The other 12 plays a little tighter than the 12G but once I got used to that it`s great.
For the darkest sound I put the G bell on the standard slide . Midnight it`s so dark and lush. Doesn`t cut at all but what a sound.

Maybe a new leadpipe is the answer. the Kanstul leadpipes are great and so are the ones from the Brass Lab. I bought a couple from Chuck. If you (at all) can please go to Chuck`s shop. Last time I was there I spent about 4 hours just trying .500 bore leadpipes , he had a 15.
Also have a repair tech go over the horn for solder blobs and possibly leaks in the solder, poor fitting tuning slide,
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