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The Trombone ForumCreation and PerformanceThe Business of Music(Moderator: BGuttman) The responsibilities of Trombonist eBay Sellers
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bachbone
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« on: Oct 26, 2009, 03:15PM »

Hey everyone,

Just recently, I purchased a trombone off of ebay from a well respected forum member.  I thought it would turn out nice as the pics were pretty good, freshly overhauled by at Oberloh's.  The information was fairly detailed which included which parts were replaced, the engraving being slightly visible.  I mean pretty detailed stuff here from a trombonist.

When I got it and decided to take pictures, everything seemed as described, nice finish.. exc...  Then I take off the outer slide, and low and behold, there is significant wear on the stockings.  Two nice marks on each of them plus a half dollar wear mark closer to the handgrip (on the stocking).

After seeing this, I called him.  Asked what was up and I got the everyday answer "you never asked about the stockings so it isn't my fault." reply.

A simple question, is it the seller's responsibility to mention that if he knows it is there?  Being a good trombonist, and leaving it out on purpose, is that misleading one bit?  I don't know what kind of feedback to leave, but I am deeply dissatisfied in this horn and the lack of a description especially from someone who knows better.

I will stay cool for now and keep from sharing the link to the ebay listing, but probably depending on how this goes, the listing will come out.   :-0 :-0 :-0 :-0 :-0
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sly fox
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« Reply #1 on: Oct 26, 2009, 03:30PM »

boy are you opening up a can of worms.

myself, I would like to believe that a fellow TTF member would be "honest".  I would hope that the person would be willing to refund you the money you used to purchase the instrument and 1/2 the shipping costs.

however, it is the real world and that is dog eat dog out there, caveat emptor - let the buyer beware.

the problem is that TTF members want to be able to sell their instruments and buy new ones.  being "honest" puts you at a disadvantage versus the rest of the field and really what loyalty do you owe to someone who reads the same threads as you do.  Its not like it is your next door neighbor, right?

Should we have a duty to warn and guide other members????  I certainly hope so,  (disclaimer in addition to the ones below- I have never tried to sell a trombone and I'm not sure I ever will)  I think that the ends do not justify the means and what you do to others, others will do to you.

I hope you can settle the dispute.  You need to be honest as well.  Is the only thing wrong what you weren't told and what responsibility did you have to ask?  Did you know enough to inquire or are you like me and not know the proper questions????  Is there buyers remorse here.  Would you accept the trombone at a reduced price?  That might be a possible compromise.


good luck

It will be interesting to see the posts on this.
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Allen
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« Reply #2 on: Oct 26, 2009, 04:07PM »

It would have been nice if the seller had mentioned the wear, but...

RULE #1: If a knowledgable seller does not mention the condition of the any critical component, or provided photographs, there's probably a reason.

That said, a horn with stocking wear can still have a reasonable fast slide, Unfortunately for someone like Koda, stocking wear does tend to reduce the value of the horn when offered for sale.

Ebay is, after all, one step above a cesspool (and that's on a good day). It really troubles me that one of the people most responsible for creating that vast digital den of thieves is trying to become governor of California.
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« Reply #3 on: Oct 26, 2009, 04:45PM »

In other entries on TTF, I have said I would never buy an instrument off eBay. Of course, some people live in small towns and need to use it.

Read the thread on the chocolate Bach 36. two threads: "Don't let your kids grow up to buy trombones" and the "Phoenix". names might be slightly different. It turned out well, but wow.

To me, this reminds me of the used car salesman who quieted a transmission with sawdust, or the one-sided picture where the other side is badly damaged.

The "you didn't ask" line indicates that 1) you didn't, and 2) the seller knew about the problem and while he didn't hide it, he didn't disclose it. This sounds like an active choice made by the seller.

My opinion is that you have paid for the privilege to disclose any information you choose to share. If that is detrimental to the seller, maybe the seller will reconsider and offer you a discount or a refund.
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Martin Hubel
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« Reply #4 on: Oct 26, 2009, 07:34PM »

For the record, did he offer to allow you to return the horn for a refund of your purchase price less the shipping cost as his listing says he will? He's pretty close to you, so shipping should be pretty cheap.
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bachbone
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« Reply #5 on: Oct 26, 2009, 08:38PM »

For the record, did he offer to allow you to return the horn for a refund of your purchase price less the shipping cost as his listing says he will? He's pretty close to you, so shipping should be pretty cheap.

He is accepting a return, but without any shipping costs on him.  Meaning, the $50 he spent and my end as well.

I think that the ends do not justify the means and what you do to others, others will do to you.

It is honesty that counts.  If you are honest, word will get out and your name will be magnified.  I have no intentions of leaving out information to my buyers.
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You can be in Tokyo or Alberta at four in the morning in your hotel and you can still practice if you feel like it. A trombone cannot do that at four in the morning.
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« Reply #6 on: Oct 26, 2009, 08:46PM »

He is accepting a return, but without any shipping costs on him.  Meaning, the $50 he spent and my end as well.


Hmm. Doesn't the listing say it's $18.00 shipped to you?
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bachbone
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« Reply #7 on: Oct 26, 2009, 08:48PM »

Hmm. Doesn't the listing say it's $18.00 shipped to you?

That is calculated to your address.
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You can be in Tokyo or Alberta at four in the morning in your hotel and you can still practice if you feel like it. A trombone cannot do that at four in the morning.
bachbone
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« Reply #8 on: Oct 26, 2009, 08:54PM »

I was just talking with another forum member about this and remembered one thing the seller told me.  It was: "I was shocked when I saw that you won it, I was hoping that it would go to a HS student or beginner"

How is that by screwed up?   Don't know Don't know Don't know Don't know
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You can be in Tokyo or Alberta at four in the morning in your hotel and you can still practice if you feel like it. A trombone cannot do that at four in the morning.
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« Reply #9 on: Oct 26, 2009, 08:57PM »

That is calculated to your address.

Yeah, but he's fifty miles closer to you than he is to me!!
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« Reply #10 on: Oct 26, 2009, 09:02PM »

I was just talking with another forum member about this and remembered one thing the seller told me.  It was: "I was shocked when I saw that you won it, I was hoping that it would go to a HS student or beginner"

How is that by screwed up?   Don't know Don't know Don't know Don't know

You know, this is getting kind of ugly here. I've dealt with the seller in the past and had no problems with him. And truth be told, I'd rather any horn I sold went to a beginner or HS student, rather than a speculator in trombones.

In the end, it seems that your gripe is that you won't be able to turn as much of a profit on this horn as you thought. Chances are good that a beginner or HS student would have been more than happy with it, even with one worn inner slide tube.
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bachbone
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« Reply #11 on: Oct 26, 2009, 09:11PM »

Hold on, I was looking at the other Conn I bought with shipping being $50.  Shipping was actually $24.32 to my address.

I am located in Provo, UT.  Little boy off to college, stepping up in the world and realizing what it is like to get through school with this kinda stuff going on.  You don't know who to trust anymore, who you can rely on, who truly has a good heart and not something plotting against.

Chances are good that a beginner or HS student would have been more than happy with it, even with one worn inner slide tube.

Do you want to see the pics?  More than one dude.
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You can be in Tokyo or Alberta at four in the morning in your hotel and you can still practice if you feel like it. A trombone cannot do that at four in the morning.
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« Reply #12 on: Oct 26, 2009, 09:20PM »

Hold on, I was looking at the other Conn I bought with shipping being $50.  Shipping was actually $24.32 to my address.

I am located in Provo, UT.  Little boy off to college, stepping up in the world and realizing what it is like to get through school with this kinda stuff going on.  You don't know who to trust anymore, who you can rely on, who truly has a good heart and not something plotting against.

Do you want to see the pics?  More than one dude.

So you're out fifty bucks. Or you re-sell it for about what you paid for it, which shouldn't be that hard. Still looks to me like you got a good deal on it. It's a Conn with Conn Wear. Go figure.

The thing is, you're a speculator. It's your job to check out the merchandise before you buy it and ask the right questions. And yes, sometimes you get burned. We all do. You can be angry with the seller, or you can wise up and realize that you should have asked more questions. Or you can make a claim with Ebay and see if they'll do right by you. 

As a seller, I wouldn't have done what he did. I always post pictures of slide inners and describe them fully. Still, I don't think we're getting the whole story by any stretch of the imagination.
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« Reply #13 on: Oct 26, 2009, 09:29PM »

i have my opinion on this matter, but all i'm going to say is that i gotta give koda props for bringing this to our attention Good!
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bachbone
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« Reply #14 on: Oct 26, 2009, 09:35PM »

So you're out fifty bucks. Or you re-sell it for about what you paid for it, which shouldn't be that hard. Still looks to me like you got a good deal on it. It's a Conn with Conn Wear. Go figure.

The thing is, you're a speculator. It's your job to check out the merchandise before you buy it and ask the right questions. And yes, sometimes you get burned. We all do. You can be angry with the seller, or you can wise up and realize that you should have asked more questions. Or you can make a claim with Ebay and see if they'll do right by you. 

Ok, but I am not only speaking for myself, but for others out there who aren't in it for an investment, who can only afford one trombone, what is fair?

So you think the same way as this seller?  I don't want to turn this into a moral issue, but is it OK to leave out important details concerning what you are selling and rely on others to ask questions for the faults to come out?  That doesn't smell right, slimy if you ask me. 

i have my opinion on this matter, but all i'm going to say is that i gotta give koda props for bringing this to our attention Good!

Thanks,  Way cool Way cool Way cool Way cool Way cool
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You can be in Tokyo or Alberta at four in the morning in your hotel and you can still practice if you feel like it. A trombone cannot do that at four in the morning.
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« Reply #15 on: Oct 26, 2009, 09:43PM »


So you think the same way as this seller?  I don't want to turn this into a moral issue, but is it OK to leave out important details concerning what you are selling and rely on others to ask questions for the faults to come out?  That doesn't smell right, slimy if you ask me. 



No, I wouldn't do it. I'm very careful to disclose faults and I've been known to return horns and eat shipping charges when a customer was dissatisfied, even when it wasn't my fault. But the horns I sell tend to go to players rather than speculators. Speculators are some of my nightmare customers, as they generally want much more than they pay for.

I'm not defending the seller's actions. I'm saying that if you're in the business of buying horns and flipping them for a profit, you've no place complaining when someone bests you in a deal. Also, as I recall, your history is less than spotless. 
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sly fox
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« Reply #16 on: Oct 26, 2009, 10:15PM »

as I predicted it is interesting to read the posts.

is there a difference based on who or what the buyer is?
 
a newbie who doesn't know any better

an experienced trombonist who knows that certain parts of a trombone are subject to wear and tear, corrosion and/or irrepairable damage?

a "capitalist" who is out to buy cheap and sell high?

I can see the difference b/t the buyer types but how is the seller to know?

perhaps not prior to the sale but afterwards in what the seller is willing to do to make things right:

full refund, compromise on price/refund.

don't know if I really have an answer.  It will be interesting to see how this thread develops.

in case it matters, i don't know the seller's idenity or much about the buyer.


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Allen
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« Reply #17 on: Oct 26, 2009, 10:23PM »

This is total Crap!  This guy is a professional trombone salesman.  I am not.  Never said I was.

He never inquired about the condition of the inners.  No one did.  I would have posted the question and answer.

I have bought perhaps ten trombones in the last year in search of the ones that I want. I have sold only 4 at the most.  The one thing I do know is to ask question on ebay auctions.  I have a perfect ebay record.  Koda knew it was me selling the 88. He knew my ebay name when I had my 32H up for sale. He should have asked me to tell him about the inners before he bid.  He knows better.  Now, why did I neglect to mention the state on the slide? As far as I was concerned it was in fine enough shape as I had just put $465 dollars into it, and the compression was fine.  The alignment was done by one of the best. As I stated in the auction.  I felt that it would be a great horn for someone that they could rely upon it as a daily player with no need for a trip to the bone doctor.  That horn is everything I said it was.
  When Koda Goldberg Matiaco called me and told me he was unhappy I told him to send it back.  Instead he wants to drag my name through the mud. But I have a kernel for you all. This is just retaliation against me for some of what I had posted about Koda and the way he had done business in the past. You can do a search of my posts. Put in the name Koda and read our history.

So here is the very first thing Koda says in his email to me.  " I can't sell this" That was his concern.  The horn was maxed out at $800  there was no margin left.  It was an Abilene horn that had tons of work done on it.  It is a horn that is meant to be played. Not parlayed into a small fortune.  He gambled on the horn being better than it was. He had everything worked out in his head so he was going to make more money off my investment. But he forgot to do his due diligence. He didn't take into account that the seller may not have described the condition of the inner stockings of a 32 year old trombone. How often do you think this happens? I ALWAYS ASK.  I think I have even seen him claim they all have a little "Conn wear"  in his auctions.  Oh yeah, don't forget, I offered to take it back. Now did I say I had put new inner tubes on the horn?

Oh and one more thing Koda.  What I said to you on the phone was that I was shocked you bought this horn. That this was in no way a trombone meant for a trombone broker to flip. "It was intended for a serious High school student or College player". One I might add that understood what an $800 32 year old Conn 88h from Abilene Texas was. Oh, and did I mention that I offered to take it back?  

I would also like to say that this in no way has anything to do with creation or performance.  I know I know the difference. Perhaps higher education will help young Koda.

 
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« Reply #18 on: Oct 26, 2009, 10:30PM »

sometime it is more important to know what is left out.


  When Koda Goldberg Matiaco called me and told me he was unhappy I told him to send it back.  ... did I mention that I offered to take it back?  
 

when a seller offers to make it good.  ACCEPT THE OFFER IN GOOD FAITH.  MISTAKES HAPPEN.

entirely different story now, IMHO.
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Allen
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« Reply #19 on: Oct 26, 2009, 10:41PM »

I'm not defending the seller's actions. I'm saying that if you're in the business of buying horns and flipping them for a profit, you've no place complaining when someone bests you in a deal. Also, as I recall, your history is less than spotless. 

This isn't about me.  I could care less about losing a couple of bucks myself.  This topic isn't going anywhere.  Just like abortion, never will be right and never will be wrong, what can I do about it.

I do recall that my history is less than spotless, but have I not rectified those issues?  Don't want to talk about specific events of this, but just ask around.  Talk to the people who have dared to call me personally, did business with me and even wished me well in my life.  If there are any problems with me that are unsolved, please let me know and I will do my best to solve them.

This post isn't about me, but opening people's eyes to what kind of world we live in.  We don't know who to trust anymore no matter if they are on the forum, have a superior knowledge, or sound like good people.  Those like me do take a risk buying, but when I sell, my customers know what they are getting.  Euphanasia, I don't see myself as a speculator, but as a person doing others favors.  Taking the risk out of buying, giving feedback on the sound of a horn, letting people come as close to touching and feeling a horn as possible through a pixeled computer screen, communication communication communication, Time and effort.  If you want to know exactly what you are getting, go to Me, DJ, Horn Doctors, Dillon's, Beacock's Music exc...  If you want to take a risk in time and money, do it yourself and see what you get.

Quick story,  I bought a mountain bike for $1000 two months ago.  I took it on a test run and everything seemed fine, nothing wrong at first then I paid in cash.  After riding to class and back I noticed some thing wrong like a tooth missing, the cassette being bent ever so slightly, the gears being stripped, shocks not having a lever.  I ended up spending another $600 in parts and labor.  Now if I would have bought from a dealer where I would have a final price and not had to worry about anything else. 

I am ranting, and sorry for that, but this issue of not disclosing information has reached a limit with me.  Thanks for reading fellow forum members.  I will keep all updated on the outcome of the paypal dispute I will open shortly to determine what paypal will consider good or bad.  Lets stop debating it and see who is wrong, the person who didn't ask questions, or the person who didn't disclose information he knew perfectly well.  We will see.

Dan, I never said your name whatsoever.  Just one quick question though, what were you thinking when you left out the info concerning the inner stockings?  With this post, I wasn't attacking you.  Just let you know that.
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You can be in Tokyo or Alberta at four in the morning in your hotel and you can still practice if you feel like it. A trombone cannot do that at four in the morning.
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