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The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentMouthpieces(Moderators: BGuttman, Doug Elliott) Looking for a lead trombone mouthpiece.
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Snaffoo
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« on: Feb 17, 2010, 01:17AM »

Im a highchool jazz trombonist. I recently got the lead bone parts for an all state jazz band, as well as a national honor jazz band, and the parts are wayyy up in the stratosphere. I play on a 2b, and Im currently using a 5GB. Some of the parts are littered with high D's and even go up to some double high F's, G's and Bb's. I need a real screamer that wont hold me back on the high stuff, and that will let me pop out some of the rediculous stuff. The highest note I can hit CLEARLY and CONSISTANTLY is a high C. Any reccomendations? Also, I like being able to put more face in the mouthpiece and put more air through the horn, I need something that I can actually blow through, rather than just squeak out high notes with a wimpy tone.
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Chris Fidler

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« Reply #1 on: Feb 17, 2010, 01:53AM »

Doug Elliot LT101/LTC/C2

http://www.dougelliottmouthpieces.com/
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« Reply #2 on: Feb 17, 2010, 05:23AM »

Im a highchool jazz trombonist. I recently got the lead bone parts for an all state jazz band, as well as a national honor jazz band, and the parts are wayyy up in the stratosphere. I play on a 2b, and Im currently using a 5GB. Some of the parts are littered with high D's and even go up to some double high F's, G's and Bb's. I need a real screamer that wont hold me back on the high stuff, and that will let me pop out some of the rediculous stuff. The highest note I can hit CLEARLY and CONSISTANTLY is a high C. Any reccomendations? Also, I like being able to put more face in the mouthpiece and put more air through the horn, I need something that I can actually blow through, rather than just squeak out high notes with a wimpy tone.

which charts have these notes?
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« Reply #3 on: Feb 17, 2010, 06:42AM »

I think there might be just a teensy bit of exageration in there.  Or you got your charts from a saxplayer who fancies himself an arranger.  No matter.

A 5 rim is a bit big for a 2B.  I keep one around for those rare occasions i need a piece that big on a 2B.

If you're used to a 5, maybe a 6.5 or 7 sized piece is a good idea - the rim change won't be that big.  And just that little bit will give you some added range.

Doug is a good way to go if you have the bread, you can PM him on this forum about details.

The problem wit your current set up is you may notice some issues with the overtone series on your horn.  Larger mouthpieces like that on your 2B can change around the way the horn slots in certain partials.
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Chris Fidler

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« Reply #4 on: Feb 17, 2010, 07:41AM »


A 5 rim is a bit big for a 2B. 

Not at all.
If a 5 rim fits his chops!!!
It's the cup and back bore that makes the difference.
I use the same rim on all my tenor trombones, it's an LT103 which is around a 3 to 4 size in Bach terms.
No problem with any range with this rim as long as the cup and backbore are the right match for the instrument.
Because that is MY rim size and when I feel comfortable everything else falls into place.
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« Reply #5 on: Feb 17, 2010, 09:54AM »

Im a highchool jazz trombonist. I recently got the lead bone parts for an all state jazz band, as well as a national honor jazz band, and the parts are wayyy up in the stratosphere. I play on a 2b, and Im currently using a 5GB. Some of the parts are littered with high D's and even go up to some double high F's, G's and Bb's. I need a real screamer that wont hold me back on the high stuff, and that will let me pop out some of the rediculous stuff. The highest note I can hit CLEARLY and CONSISTANTLY is a high C. Any reccomendations? Also, I like being able to put more face in the mouthpiece and put more air through the horn, I need something that I can actually blow through, rather than just squeak out high notes with a wimpy tone.

If you're really serious about notes like    and being in the parts and you can only reliably play up to  , a new/different mouthpiece probably isn't going to allow you to play all of that book.

In general, mouthpieces that give support in the upper register usually have smaller cups and tighter backbores/throats (I'm probably misusing a term here, feel free to correct me). If you're really serious about keeping your 5-sized rim, you should probably talk to Doug Elliot or someone like Warburton or Hammond about matching up parts that will fit you.
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« Reply #6 on: Feb 17, 2010, 10:00AM »

I still want to see the charts that have such high notes in them.


The highest written stuff I have ever seen and played for lead trombone were both double Ab.  One was something from the Mingus band.  The other was the transcription of "Sonnet for Hank Cinq" by Ellington.  Other than that, even a high F is rare.
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« Reply #7 on: Feb 17, 2010, 03:45PM »

Not at all.
If a 5 rim fits his chops!!!
It's the cup and back bore that makes the difference.
I use the same rim on all my tenor trombones, it's an LT103 which is around a 3 to 4 size in Bach terms.
No problem with any range with this rim as long as the cup and backbore are the right match for the instrument.
Because that is MY rim size and when I feel comfortable everything else falls into place.

I don't think he was saying the 5 rim specifically was too big, rather that the G part is too big.
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« Reply #8 on: Feb 17, 2010, 08:53PM »

yeah, namely that it does seem to throw the overtone series off a bit.  i mean, you learn to deal with it and your ear corrects for it, but not optimum in terms of equipment choices.  anyone can make it work who has an ear and good chops, but it's not an optimum piece for the horn - we're talking about a 2B here.  i normally use a 6.5 on my 2B which still throws the series off a bit but i'm used to it so it's alright.  I pop a 7C in there and things line up a little better - of course i'm ripped at the end of the night because i just haven't figured out how to make a 7C work for me.
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« Reply #9 on: Feb 18, 2010, 03:09PM »

Quote
The highest written stuff I have ever seen and played for lead trombone were both double Ab.  One was something from the Mingus band.  The other was the transcription of "Sonnet for Hank Cinq" by Ellington.  Other than that, even a high F is rare.

What you said.

Quote
of course i'm ripped at the end of the night because i just haven't figured out how to make a 7C work for me.

Hurts, doesn't it?  :D I feel your pain, 7C is cool but can't take it too long.
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« Reply #10 on: Feb 18, 2010, 05:44PM »

like a cookie cutter.  not as bad as the 12C but still, me no like. 

the wicks are a little better than the bachs for comfort i think but i sound weird on them.
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« Reply #11 on: Feb 20, 2010, 12:21AM »

Not at all.
If a 5 rim fits his chops!!!
It's the cup and back bore that makes the difference.
I use the same rim on all my tenor trombones, it's an LT103 which is around a 3 to 4 size in Bach terms.
No problem with any range with this rim as long as the cup and backbore are the right match for the instrument.
Because that is MY rim size and when I feel comfortable everything else falls into place.

I have to agree with Chris on this one.  Rims with a smaller diameter than a 5 feel very uncomfortable to me so I use a Doug Elliott MT-101 rim (equivalent to a 5) with a MT-C cup (equivalent to a 6 1/2AL) and a C2 shank on my .500 bore tenor.  However, instead of an LT series mpcs, I would suggest an MT series mpc for screaming high parts because I think the shape of the cup makes playing high notes easier.  This is just my opinion, of course, but it works for me.  Doug might have a different view on this.

Oh, one more thing.  Doug's rims are much, much more comfortable than Bach rims.  Again, that's my opinion but it seems to be shared by many who play DE mpcs.   Good!

Aloha,
Richard
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« Reply #12 on: Feb 20, 2010, 12:36AM »

No mouthpiece is going to suddenly enable a player to get double F's and above if he doesn't already have those notes down - it takes months if not years of patient practice and hard work........
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« Reply #13 on: Feb 20, 2010, 09:04AM »

I have to agree with Chris on this one.  Rims with a smaller diameter than a 5 feel very uncomfortable to me so I use a Doug Elliott MT-101 rim (equivalent to a 5) with a MT-C cup (equivalent to a 6 1/2AL) and a C2 shank on my .500 bore tenor.  However, instead of an LT series mpcs, I would suggest an MT series mpc for screaming high parts because I think the shape of the cup makes playing high notes easier.  This is just my opinion, of course, but it works for me.  Doug might have a different view on this.

Oh, one more thing.  Doug's rims are much, much more comfortable than Bach rims.  Again, that's my opinion but it seems to be shared by many who play DE mpcs.   Good!

Aloha,
Richard

Just to clarity to the OP and Chris and everyone else, I was in no way suggesting that a piece with a 5 rim doesn't work on a 2B, or for lead playing for that matter.  I've played a 5GS and a Ferguson L and even Curry's version of a small shank 3 on my 2B.  I am of the "what woks best is best for you" school.  I normally use a 6.5 which is not much smaller.  My point was that a mouthpiece that size usually throws off the overtone series of the 2B quite a bit.  It's not as noticeable on a .508 or even a .500 but on a 2B it's going to cause you to have to put the positions in a different place.  This is why i suggest that a 5 rim may not be optimum for this horn.   If the OP is anything like me when i was in HS, he probably does a lot of adjusting whether subconscious or not with his chops.  He'll be doing a whole lot of adjusting with the larger piece if that's the case, because the positions will be in a totally different place than they are on his regular horn.  All that wigglin' around to make it work might just tire him out.  I'm just relaying my experiences with using larger pieces on a 2B.  This is what I noticed and it may or may not be beneficial to take these things into consideration when choosing what to play on such a small horn. 

Now if the 5 rim is a must, i think the Elliot solution would be best.  I'd bet Doug knows how to balance that size rim with a cup and backbore that would allow it to work on a horn that small. 
No mouthpiece is going to suddenly enable a player to get double F's and above if he doesn't already have those notes down - it takes months if not years of patient practice and hard work........

one vote for best quote ever?  we laugh at trumpet players with their cheater pieces - but i know some of you guys do it too.
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« Reply #14 on: Feb 20, 2010, 10:11AM »

I don't think you can "CHEAT" so much changing a mouthpiece... I would be happy if you could... Pant
May be you can get a couple of clearer high notes but get all that range only by changing a mouthpiece... if works tell me and I will order one of those...
I think if you can get those high notes you should say it and keep all the rest of the notes as good as you have with your current mouthpiece...
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« Reply #15 on: Feb 20, 2010, 11:21AM »

m i reading 5 G  B -----------???????????
  thats  a  very  deep  depp cup
   a 5 G S   much  different
-----------
 even   4 C   --------
------------
GB  -WHOA  !!!!!!!!!!!



Im a highchool jazz trombonist. I recently got the lead bone parts for an all state jazz band, as well as a national honor jazz band, and the parts are wayyy up in the stratosphere. I play on a 2b, and Im currently using a 5GB. Some of the parts are littered with high D's and even go up to some double high F's, G's and Bb's. I need a real screamer that wont hold me back on the high stuff, and that will let me pop out some of the rediculous stuff. The highest note I can hit CLEARLY and CONSISTANTLY is a high C. Any reccomendations? Also, I like being able to put more face in the mouthpiece and put more air through the horn, I need something that I can actually blow through, rather than just squeak out high notes with a wimpy tone.
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« Reply #16 on: Feb 20, 2010, 11:37AM »

I don't think you can "CHEAT" so much changing a mouthpiece... I would be happy if you could... Pant
May be you can get a couple of clearer high notes but get all that range only by changing a mouthpiece... if works tell me and I will order one of those...
I think if you can get those high notes you should say it and keep all the rest of the notes as good as you have with your current mouthpiece...

i can put in a 12C and pound out the loudest high F's - for about 4 minutes then my chops are shot.  The concept of the "cheater" - and why they call it that - is to quickly plug it in only for those times when you need something outside of your normal range.  It's one of those things that guys have done for ever that none who do like to admit too.  I've sat on enough bandstands with enough guys to know that the guys who do it feel some sort of shame and don't like to admit it (one particularly screaming lead player used to change pieces in his tux jacket so no one would notice?!?!?!?.)  I used to do it when i was younger, a 12C easily added a fifth to my range - and took about an octave and a half off of the bottom.  I did it until i had worked up the range necessary for the gig i was doing and promptly threw it in the trash.

So yes,one can cheat with a mouthpiece.  It's not a recommended approach.  Honest range and endurance is preferable to any kind of short cut.  That said, you got to put bread on the table and the musical director/studio contractor/conductor doesn't care how you do it as long as it sounds good.

Of course, if he is playing a 5GB, a 6.5AL is going to feel pretty small and may add about a third short term.   
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« Reply #17 on: Feb 20, 2010, 03:27PM »

I feel I should mention that not everyone's face reacts the same way to rim changes.

I play six horns and each of them has its own mouthpiece (or two), from  a fairly good-sized Helleberg on the tuba to an 18c on my lead horn.  Sometimes I use more than one mouthpiece on certain gigs.

I wouldn't recommend doing this for a student who is in their first five or so years of playing. 
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« Reply #18 on: Feb 20, 2010, 03:44PM »

I am of the controversial one-rim school of thought, and use many different types of mouthpiece underparts, but with the same rim.  For me there was a short period of adjustment as with any mouthpiece, but ever so much more comfortable in the end.  My face always knows what to expect, but only the blow is different, which I find much easier to adapt to.  I tried using different size rims for the job, and to an extent of course it worked for me.  When I tried switching (or NOT switching) to the same rim (and of course finding what kind of rim-shape/diameter worked best for me which took some experimentation), things all just started lining up in the right ways.  I've been playing on the same rim for 5 years now, and I'm not looking back.

That being said, and from my school of thinking, I would definitely check out the Elliott 101s with C and D cups, as I find these to be super lead and second cups, especially on a 2B (you'd have to figure out what series you wanted to go with though).  I would also put in a bid for a Hammond 12 S (which would be the rim size you're used to), as I also find this cup to be a fantastic for playing lead, and use that model as such currently.  Your current mouthpiece is way out of balance for a 2B, and you're most likely compensating for it.  Best of luck, and be forewarned, no cheater mouthpiece is going to get you there and keep you there like good, solid fundamentals will.
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« Reply #19 on: Feb 21, 2010, 04:54AM »

I would also like to reccomend a Warburton 9M or 9D top with a T4 backbore. really good all around commercial setup for someone who needs a 101 (like a bach 5) rim. I find them to work particularly good in the high register. I of course work for the company, but I do so because I believe in Terry Warburtons products!
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