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Author Topic: Crime and Punishment  (Read 3166 times)
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Eric01

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« on: May 03, 2010, 10:15PM »

Hey, Gang,

Remember when Martha Stewart was convicted of insider trading and did jail time?  Bravely.  She sucked it up and paid her debt without public complaint.  Her judicated transgressions really hurt nobody (at most, very much).

I really admire her.

Do you think anyone from the Goldman Sachs fiasco, or any of the other Wall Street outlaws. will ever do jail time or be punished to the extent they deserve? 

These monsters ruined lives! 

They'll all skate.

Maybe God will sort them out.

Martha Stewart Living in Waldport
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Russ White

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« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2010, 03:47AM »

There is a criminal investigation going on, but I'm not holding my breath that anyone will actually be charged with a crime. Remember, starting with Reagan, de-regulation and dismantlement of oversight have been the mainstay of the Republican/ conservative agenda. We're now seeing the results of that philosophy with the coal mining disaster, the oil spill, immigration, and the financial melt-down, etc., etc., etc..  It's probable that, as unethical and greed oriented as their actions were, they may not have been illegal.
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« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2010, 06:37AM »

Russ, exactly how was the coal mining disaster a result of deregulation when they had been fined multiple times for violations?

And how did the oil spill result from de-regulation?
---
As far as Goldman-Sachs "getting what they deserve", I will admidt I have not followed the story very close as it seems they are just the latest of "Evil big corpororations".  Previously it was insurance companies, before that it was oil companies.  What troubles me the most is when things go bad, we always want to recompense.  But sometimes, things just go wrong.  Mistakes are made, even with the best of intentions.  If we continues to demand a pound of flesh for every wrong, I can tell you--we all will lose a lot of weight quickly.

And who are we to tell what each individual "deserves". 
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Russ White

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« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2010, 09:44AM »

Russ, exactly how was the coal mining disaster a result of deregulation when they had been fined multiple times for violations?

And how did the oil spill result from de-regulation?
---
As far as Goldman-Sachs "getting what they deserve", I will admidt I have not followed the story very close as it seems they are just the latest of "Evil big corpororations".  Previously it was insurance companies, before that it was oil companies.  What troubles me the most is when things go bad, we always want to recompense.  But sometimes, things just go wrong.  Mistakes are made, even with the best of intentions.  If we continues to demand a pound of flesh for every wrong, I can tell you--we all will lose a lot of weight quickly.

And who are we to tell what each individual "deserves". 

Both the coal mine disaster and the oil spill are more a function of dis-mantlement of oversight. Not enough enforcement officers to stay on top of whether or not corporations are following required regulations where they do exist. In actuality, the oil spill may be more a matter of non-regulation than of de-regulation.
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ddickerson

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« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2010, 10:44AM »

Both the coal mine disaster and the oil spill are more a function of dis-mantlement of oversight. Not enough enforcement officers to stay on top of whether or not corporations are following required regulations where they do exist. In actuality, the oil spill may be more a matter of non-regulation than of de-regulation.

Do you already know what happened on the drilling platform? Please explain to me what caused the explosion.
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Homer
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« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2010, 10:56AM »

Both the coal mine disaster and the oil spill are more a function of dis-mantlement of oversight. Not enough enforcement officers to stay on top of whether or not corporations are following required regulations where they do exist. In actuality, the oil spill may be more a matter of non-regulation than of de-regulation.

Citation or opinion?
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« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2010, 01:04PM »

Do you already know what happened on the drilling platform? Please explain to me what caused the explosion.

Anybody who could explain it is either one of the 11 dead, maybe one of the 200-some rescued, or a clairvoyant.  Right now the cause is pure conjecture.
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« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2010, 02:14PM »

Russ appears to disagree there Bruce...
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« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2010, 02:29PM »

I think Russ's point (correct me if I'm wrong) is that regardless of the cause of the disaster, the aftermath is worse than it should be. BP and Transocean should have had better disaster planning for this type of thing.

The deep-sea drilling is at the very edge of our technical abilities so when something goes wrong, there isn't good contingency planning because no one knows what to do. One of the problems here (in both the financial and oil situations) is that the knowledge required is so arcane that we really have to rely on the people being regulated.

In this case, BP was adamant that the technology had advanced so that major oil spills were a thing of the past. Bush and Obama both bought it.

The corollary problem will now be the the overload on our landfills as everyone throws out 'Drill, Baby, Drill' signs all at the same time.
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ddickerson

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« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2010, 03:12PM »

I think Russ's point (correct me if I'm wrong) is that regardless of the cause of the disaster, the aftermath is worse than it should be. BP and Transocean should have had better disaster planning for this type of thing.

The deep-sea drilling is at the very edge of our technical abilities so when something goes wrong, there isn't good contingency planning because no one knows what to do. One of the problems here (in both the financial and oil situations) is that the knowledge required is so arcane that we really have to rely on the people being regulated.

In this case, BP was adamant that the technology had advanced so that major oil spills were a thing of the past. Bush and Obama both bought it.

The corollary problem will now be the the overload on our landfills as everyone throws out 'Drill, Baby, Drill' signs all at the same time.

Once upon a time,
we believed that airplane hijackers,
only wanted a ticket out of town,
and the best thing to do is just,
cooperate with the hijackers.

No one conceived that the hijackers,
would hijack an airplane and fly it into
skyscrapers.

This explosion obviously set off a chain of events that took everybody by surprise,
but no one is short on Monday morning quarterbacking.

Some people are just sitting back complaining,
and there are others that are actually out there
doing something to solve the problem.

It's real easy to rail against 'big oil', or the 'private sector' assumming of course that the government could have handled it better. :)

Only they're not.

So, let's sit back in our comfortable chairs and wait until the facts are on the table. Why would anyone want to make himself look like Bloomberg? :)




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« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2010, 03:18PM »

DDickerson, I'm not, "blaming big oil", or 'the private sector' (of which I'm a part).

I'm saying that this technology is not ready, as was evidenced by this event. To avoid Monday morning quarterbacking, I'll say that maybe this was completely unexpected and unprecedented, but it shows that we were wrong about the technology.

Am I right about this, or are you ready to dust off your 'Drill, Baby, Drill' sign?
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ddickerson

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« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2010, 04:05PM »

DDickerson, I'm not, "blaming big oil", or 'the private sector' (of which I'm a part).

I'm saying that this technology is not ready, as was evidenced by this event. To avoid Monday morning quarterbacking, I'll say that maybe this was completely unexpected and unprecedented, but it shows that we were wrong about the technology.

Am I right about this, or are you ready to dust off your 'Drill, Baby, Drill' sign?

So, lets drill in Alaska.
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Exzaclee

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« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2010, 04:12PM »

how about we save our oil until everyone else is out of theirs.

Strategic planning - it's not just for wars.

of course foresight isn't anyone's favorite now-a-days is it?
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evan51
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« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2010, 07:19PM »

Hey, Gang,

Remember when Martha Stewart was convicted of insider trading and did jail time?  Bravely.  She sucked it up and paid her debt without public complaint.  Her judicated transgressions really hurt nobody (at most, very much).
What GS, JP Morgan, and others do is to actually manipulate markets/stocks up and down by controlling supply and demand. It is ultimately more destructive and certainly greedier even though technically within "the rules of the game" (as they keep referring to it) mostly. It's a game they control through their buddies in Washington.
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« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2010, 07:47PM »

I think Russ's point (correct me if I'm wrong) is that regardless of the cause of the disaster, the aftermath is worse than it should be. BP and Transocean should have had better disaster planning for this type of thing.

The deep-sea drilling is at the very edge of our technical abilities so when something goes wrong, there isn't good contingency planning because no one knows what to do. One of the problems here (in both the financial and oil situations) is that the knowledge required is so arcane that we really have to rely on the people being regulated.

In this case, BP was adamant that the technology had advanced so that major oil spills were a thing of the past. Bush and Obama both bought it.

The corollary problem will now be the the overload on our landfills as everyone throws out 'Drill, Baby, Drill' signs all at the same time.


BUT BUSH!!!! (That pretty much sums up Russ's position.
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« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2010, 09:10PM »

So, lets drill in Alaska.

We've already been told that offshore drilling is safe, and that drilling in Alaska is safe. Shall we take both those assertions at face value, or learn a lesson?

I've always valued the GOP as the 'practical guys'. The Dems are the ones that want to 'dream something that never was', and the GOP are the ones saying, "Wait a second, how about this guy who owns the hardware store? That's not going to work."

Lately the GOP is getting too starry-eyed for my tastes. "Drill, baby, drill" may be a thrilling slogan for some, but as a businessman I'd want to figure out how much oil will now have to be extracted in order to pay for the losses we just took to our fisheries and the ongoing cost of cleanup. I think we'll be drilling a long time to catch up, even if something else bad happens. We're going backwards, so far.

There's an old saying among the practical: "Don't throw good money after bad."
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« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2010, 11:11PM »

We've already been told that offshore drilling is safe, and that drilling in Alaska is safe. Shall we take both those assertions at face value, or learn a lesson?

I've always valued the GOP as the 'practical guys'. The Dems are the ones that want to 'dream something that never was', and the GOP are the ones saying, "Wait a second, how about this guy who owns the hardware store? That's not going to work."

Lately the GOP is getting too starry-eyed for my tastes. "Drill, baby, drill" may be a thrilling slogan for some, but as a businessman I'd want to figure out how much oil will now have to be extracted in order to pay for the losses we just took to our fisheries and the ongoing cost of cleanup. I think we'll be drilling a long time to catch up, even if something else bad happens. We're going backwards, so far.

There's an old saying among the practical: "Don't throw good money after bad."

One accident on the drilling platforms? And it might have been that someone caused that explosion, so we really don't know if we're throwing good money after bad, yet.

We're gonna shut down all off-shore drilling because of this one accident? is that what you want? it sounds like that is your position.

If it was just an accident, just saying, what does this administration know that we don't that caused them to send these swat teams out to all the off-shore drilling platforms? To prevent further accidents? Just curious, because it seems like that we're not getting all the information, yet.

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« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2010, 12:06AM »

One accident on the drilling platforms? And it might have been that someone caused that explosion, so we really don't know if we're throwing good money after bad, yet.

We're gonna shut down all off-shore drilling because of this one accident? is that what you want? it sounds like that is your position.

If it was just an accident, just saying, what does this administration know that we don't that caused them to send these swat teams out to all the off-shore drilling platforms? To prevent further accidents? Just curious, because it seems like that we're not getting all the information, yet.

I'm trying to be practical here. The cost of this disaster will far exceed any possible or potential benefit from the oil rig. You're right about one thing--it doesn't matter if it was 'just an accident' or some form of sabotage. Either way, we couldn't prevent it, and now that it's happened we have little idea what to do about it, so we should stop, now, until we solve it.

I was a fence sitter on offshore drilling, but this is proof positive that it isn't a good idea. By what stretch of the imagination does it make sense to keep going and hope this doesn't happen again?
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BGuttman
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« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2010, 05:47AM »

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.

We're still not sure what caused the explosion, although the failure of the GPS-based stabilization system is what caused the pipe to break, and failure of the shutoff column is what caused the spill.

When we have a pretty good idea of how this happened, we may need to have additional equipment on these platforms.  It's going to increase the cost of running the off-shore platforms, but that's part of the game.

We also need to find a better way to deal with the spills; preferably sooner rather than later.  The longer you let a spill continue the harder it is to clean up.

What's the right technology for all this?  Dunno.  Maybe good old American (I'd say Yankee but I'd probably offend Dusty) ingenuity can find it. 
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« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2010, 08:25AM »

Citation or opinion?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704423504575212031417936798.html


"U.S. regulators don't mandate use of the remote-control device on offshore rigs, and the Deepwater Horizon, hired by oil giant BP PLC, didn't have one....Nevertheless, regulators in two major oil-producing countries, Norway and Brazil, in effect require them. Norway has had acoustic triggers on almost every offshore rig since 1993........The U.S. considered requiring a remote-controlled shut-off mechanism several years ago, but drilling companies questioned its cost and effectiveness, according to the agency overseeing offshore drilling."

Now, granted, this is from the WSJ, and we Know what a left-leaning, liberal rag it is. When you've had oil people running the country, you get the type of "voluntary" regulation and control that leads to episodes like this one and the explosion in Texas City a few years ago. "Drill, Baby, Drill - Spill, Baby, Spill - Burn, Baby Burn!!!" What's a few lives and an ocean when Halliburton and Exxon need to make profits?
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