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Author Topic: vintage trombone confusion  (Read 2972 times)
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tboley

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« on: May 22, 2010, 02:20PM »

I purchased a trombone to just play around, and get back into music, with. The condition was a little rough and I paid a fair asking price for it. I decided to research it to get a guestamate on age. To my suprise, or maybe my ignorance, I am having a hard time finding out anything to be 100% true. All I know is what I have in front of me: the case says Boosey & Hawkes (could be change) the horn says    Embassy
                              London New York                                  Made in England
and the serial number is 219318.
What I find is Embassy was made in France by Besson, but Besson also operated in England at an earlier time, and the number I have was also made in France OR the duplicate valve instrument was since Besson duplicated the number in London and Paris plants in 1956. One site also says the stamp on the horns from France is completely different from mine, which would make sense mine says England. And yet another sits says the quality from England was better before the merger with Boosey & Hawkes happened. Any information would be helpful.
Thanks,
Tracy

                                                       
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apwilliams
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« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2010, 02:46PM »

my bass trumpet which is a besson says the same thing. London-Paris-New York.
I think these where they would have been made because they had plants making these instruments in each of these citys. Also I am sure on the besson website you can find a place were you type in the serial number and it tells you more about the instrument.

Hoped this helped  :D
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apwilliams
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« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2010, 03:06PM »

your serial number says your trombone was made between 1955-1960, closer to 55 though

http://saxworx.com/boozy2.htm
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tboley

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« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2010, 05:39PM »

Thanks, There are so many differant things to find and it helps to get someone to agree with some of them. I plan to finish the clean-up and get back to playing. Good!
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apwilliams
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« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2010, 08:03PM »

Welcome to the trombone world  :D
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Stewbones43

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« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2010, 02:45AM »

Hi,
I used to have a Besson "Embassy" trombone from that era but it was moved on long ago, however, I do remember some features.
Mine had a bell of about 7.5in diameter and the bell edge was turned over and formed a small krantz like thing, only about 1/4inch overlap. I think this must have been a French idea as I have a Selmer, Paris trombone from the same era with the same thing. The bore was quite small-.487in or even less and the stockings were soldered onto the inner slides in the old fashioned way, not part of the the inners. The cork barrels were very short like the old British pea-shooters and the counterweight was not detachable. It was circular and smooth, like a pebble.
Mine did say made in France on the bell but I think there might have been some "Embassy" models which were made in England and were similar to the "Westminster", "Stratford" and 2-20 range.

Hope this helps

Cheers

Stewbones
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Trombone means big trumpet-does that mean it is louder?
sly fox
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« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2010, 04:04AM »

welcome to the forums.

if you can tell us what sources you have consulted, perhaps we can offer others for you to look at.  I believe that EBAY uses the following descriptions: "vintage" more than 30 years old and then "antique", as well as "used" and "new".  All of my trombones, check my profile, are vintage/antique/used.

serial numbers/date lists are "guesstiments" for the most part due to either deliberate destrution/poor record keeping/time/????.

remember that trombones have been made for a long time.

love to see pictures of your gem
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Allen
First and foremost I'm a proud Dad & lucky Husband.  They say great minds can differ (not that I claim to have a great mind).  Remember that $ and my opinion buys coffee at the diner.
Stewbones43

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« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2010, 05:22AM »

Tracy,
I have just re-read your post and noted that your trombone says "Made in England" so here are 2 things which may help:-

http://www.horn-u-copia.net/books/Besson%201958.pdf

This is a catalogue of Besson instruments exported to the US in the 1950s/60s and has details and pictures of the instruments.

The other place to find out information is http://www.horniman.ac.uk/. The old B&H/Besson archives are now held there and they will be able to give you information about your trombone from the serial number.

Good luck

Stewbones
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Trombone means big trumpet-does that mean it is louder?
tboley

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« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2010, 11:11PM »

I do thank everyone that has contributed to this hunt. I am finding the info is still not leading very far. Here is some more info on my horn. The bell is 7.25" with a rolled edge very similar to my sons King 600 trumpet from the 80's, the counter weight is a fixed octagon polished with no markings and the mouthpiece is solid silver stamped Made in England with no other marks. I'm not sure of the bore or even exactly how or where to measure it. Are there anyother things to look for?
Thanks again to all,
Tracy
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Stewbones43

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« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2010, 09:44AM »

I think you will find that your trombone is very similar to the Besson "Stratford" model shown on pages 8&9 of the "Horn-u-copia" website but with the British style octagonal weight rather than the more unusual circular one in the catalogue.

Cheers

Stewbones
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tboley

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« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2010, 07:34PM »

Stewbones,
     I agree that the Strafford is very close to my horn, and I would like to thank you for helping an uneducated brass fan understand where his horn comes from. I like the fact all that posted had the tact not to be rude to someone that may have had some silly questions that really don't have any real importance to the sound of the music played. Weather this horn came from a 5 and dime or someone's priceless collection I am going to play it and have a good time.
Tracy
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sly fox
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« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2010, 06:46AM »

tracy

I own the copyright on all stupid, dumb and silly questions, don't worry, I don't charge others who use them. 

keep asking questions and learn as you go how to search this site and the other sites you will learn about.

one question - I can't find the "silly question" you claimed to have asked in this thread??????

have you found this site yet?

http://webspace.webring.com/people/oy/yuenli/discontspecs.html
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Allen
First and foremost I'm a proud Dad & lucky Husband.  They say great minds can differ (not that I claim to have a great mind).  Remember that $ and my opinion buys coffee at the diner.
tbone62
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« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2010, 06:56PM »

     I agree that the Strafford is very close to my horn, and I would like to thank you for helping an uneducated brass fan understand where his horn comes from. I like the fact all that posted had the tact not to be rude to someone that may have had some silly questions that really don't have any real importance to the sound of the music played.


I didn't see any "silly questions" either and I'm glad you decided to post your question here. Hopefully the answers you got have helped somewhat and honestly, the questions like yours about horns that are difficult to identify really add to the wealth of information we have on this website, in my opinion.  It helps many of us to become more knowledgeable about the instruments.  I'm no expert, but I'm learning more all the time.

Weather this horn came from a 5 and dime or someone's priceless collection I am going to play it and have a good time.
Tracy

That's the best part and the whole point, I think. Be sure to check out the other sections of the Forum as well, if you haven't already.  :)



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tboley

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« Reply #13 on: Jun 17, 2010, 09:18PM »

     I have to thank you all again. I am chacking out more of the sight as I have time, but that is a thing that is a little short lately. I hope to learn what I can here and pass it along to my kids as they show more intrest in playing. I'm going to try to post some pics if I can get that working in my favor. I'm not the best on the tech side of things. LOL The kind words do help the drive to research.
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