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The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentInstruments(Moderators: greg waits, tbone62) King - US Armed Forces trombone
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pjkpro

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« on: Jun 27, 2010, 07:34AM »

Anybody know anything about these old horns?  I did a quick search here and came up blank.
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« Reply #1 on: Jun 27, 2010, 10:32AM »

You have one?
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pjkpro

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« Reply #2 on: Jun 27, 2010, 10:34AM »

No I do not.
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Yamaha YSL-691
King 3B
Elkhart Conn 88H
Olds LA Recording
Olds LA Super
1935 Martin Handcraft Imperial
1927 Conn 2H
E.F. Durand Alto
1972 Conn 6H
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« Reply #3 on: Jun 27, 2010, 10:50AM »

I am coming up with blank too
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Slod

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« Reply #4 on: Jun 27, 2010, 11:37AM »

check this out?

http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/msg/1813369580.html

Also from hnwhite.com

"Saxophones produced during the War are engraved with U. S. or some other type of engraving which tells which branch of the military it went to. (U. S. N. =Navy, U. S. M. C.=U. S. Army Quartermaster Corps) "

"In 1952 with the outbreak of the Korean War The H. N. White Company again found it's self facing a shortage of brass. Mrs White quickly was awarded another government contract to produce radar parts. At the same time the Military the place a very large order for band instruments while another government agency refused to "release" additional brass calling the instruments "...really not necessary". In order to keep up with Military requirements and Instrument production Mrs White increased the average work week from 46 hours to 56 hours. King dealers were buying as many instruments as they could get their hands on fearing what happened in World War II and sales grew by 30 percent. Over the next two years the situation remained the same and the King work force grew from 250 to 300 people."

Go here and scroll down to the No.1 and look at the note.
http://www.hnwhite.com/Trombone%20Page.htm

Thats what I found as to them and a military model. Maybe its the Model 1?
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JohnL
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« Reply #5 on: Jun 27, 2010, 03:00PM »

Anybody know anything about these old horns?  I did a quick search here and came up blank.
You'll see horns marketed as a "Military Model" or "for military band", but that doesn't mean they were made specifically for the military. On the other hand, you'll also see individual horns marked as being produced for the military ("US" or some such); those are typically the regular production models, though sometimes with a specific finish (silver plate seems to be have been the standard for quite a while).

The details are hazy, but I seem to recall one Bach trombone (a model 46?) that was on eBay a while back that was one of a small number (2?) made up for one on the premiere bands (Marine Band?).

As to the horn Slod spotted on Craigslist? The serial number does indicate WWII-era production. Due to shortages of labor and material, not many horns were made then, and pretty much all of them were for military contracts. The seller does not give a bell size and only states that the bore is between a 2B and a 3B. The pictures are almost useless for identification - I can't even tell if it's got a curved or straight bell brace. Based on the very sketchy info, I'd guess that it's a large-bore model 1420 (Gardell Simons "Cello-Tone". The info at hnwhite.com indicates that the 1420 was available in three bores; small (.460"/.480"), medium (.480"), and large (.500") and that it was discontinued at the beginning of WWII. Be a reasonable guess that King might have made up a run during the war to fulfill a government contract.
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« Reply #6 on: Jun 27, 2010, 04:23PM »

Hello. This is my first time to the forum.

I can offer up some more information. The horn's mine.

7.5" diameter on the bell. Curved bell brace. No counterweight.

I believe it originally had a nice gold finish on the inside of the bell that washed away in an acid bath.

Etching on bell:
KING
The H.N.White Co.
Cleveland
Ohio
...and outside the ornamentation:
U.S.

I'm not a gear guy, so any other questions or insight are appreciated. Thanks.




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« Reply #7 on: Jun 27, 2010, 07:24PM »

Hello. This is my first time to the forum.

I can offer up some more information. The horn's mine.

7.5" diameter on the bell. Curved bell brace. No counterweight.

I believe it originally had a nice gold finish on the inside of the bell that washed away in an acid bath.

Etching on bell:
KING
The H.N.White Co.
Cleveland
Ohio
...and outside the ornamentation:
U.S.

I'm not a gear guy, so any other questions or insight are appreciated. Thanks.






I saw that horn - looked cool.  Good!

Between a 2B/3B... what's the bore size exactly?

I was kinda in the market, but scored on e-bay on a couple horns today, + picked up an Elkie 6H and Recording w/ F (4 total horns this weekend).
Not in the market anylonger, broke :( .

T.
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Richard Tadaki

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« Reply #8 on: Jun 27, 2010, 07:52PM »

I saw that horn - looked cool.  Good!

Between a 2B/3B... what's the bore size exactly?

I was kinda in the market, but scored on e-bay on a couple horns today, + picked up an Elkie 6H and Recording w/ F (4 total horns this weekend).
Not in the market anylonger, broke :( .

T.

Geez, Troy.  No kidding scored.  It sounds like you scored big!!!   Good!    Personally, I wouldn't mind finding an Elkie 79H but I guess they're not too common and probably are out of my price range.  But, anyway, congratulations!   :) :) :)

Aloha,
Richard
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Evil Ronnie

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« Reply #9 on: Jun 27, 2010, 08:11PM »

JohnL said:
"The details are hazy, but I seem to recall one Bach trombone (a model 46?) that was on eBay a while back that was one of a small number (2?) made up for one on the premiere bands (Marine Band?)."

John,

I remember the rebuilt silver Bach 46 that Newell Sheridan sold on ebay about four years ago. I bid on that horn, but dropped out at 2K. It was one of two that were made for The West Point Band.

Evil Ronnie
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« Reply #10 on: Jun 28, 2010, 04:48AM »

Hello. This is my first time to the forum.

I can offer up some more information. The horn's mine.

7.5" diameter on the bell. Curved bell brace. No counterweight.

I believe it originally had a nice gold finish on the inside of the bell that washed away in an acid bath.

Etching on bell:
KING
The H.N.White Co.
Cleveland
Ohio
...and outside the ornamentation:
U.S.

I'm not a gear guy, so any other questions or insight are appreciated. Thanks.



Welcome to the forums. you can learn alot here.  when you get a chance to to practice break, chit chat, new members and introduce yourself.
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Allen
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« Reply #11 on: Jun 28, 2010, 07:09AM »

curtisman, welcome! Hi

Pictures would help a lot.

To help date the horn, is there a doubled brace (one straight and one curved) as the fixed brace on the slide?  This was standard on King horns for 5 years on either side of World War I.  A single brace as the fixed brace would probably put it closer to World War II.

There would probably be a serial number.  A World War I horn would have 5 digits and most newer ones would be 6 digits.  Somewhere around 200000 for World War II.

Go on the hnwhite site and see what looks closest to the model you have.  I don't think King made special models for the Military; they just engraved "US" on their standard models.
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curtisman
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« Reply #12 on: Jun 28, 2010, 07:58AM »

Hey, everyone. I appreciate all this extra info.

At the day gig, but I can tell you that the ser# is 252871.

Actually, there is a good chance that the U.S. is just "made in the U.S.", however, there were horns with markings like "U.S.N." for U.S. Navy. I used to have one of those.

Will check on the braces, but i believe there's a straight brace near the tuning slide and a curved closer to the bell. I'll try to put up some more helpful photos tonight.
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BGuttman
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« Reply #13 on: Jun 28, 2010, 08:32AM »

252xxx would make it World War II era.

What I was talking about was this:


Note the double brace under the mouthpiece.  It was very uncomfortable to hold and was abandoned in the mid 1920s.

The World War II era was just before the introduction of the "B" series.  The Liberty was made with dual bore slide and thus became 2B (for 2 Bore).  In the 1950s they introduced the 3B, which was a single bore (0.508") horn.  Then came the 4B, 5B, and 6B.  Large bore and bass horns.  This was followed up by the 7B and 8B in the late 1970s.
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« Reply #14 on: Jun 28, 2010, 08:33AM »

the braces that BGuttman was referring to was on the slide, not the bell.

check out this images from the website to compare:

http://www.hnwhite.com/Trombone%20Page.html

click on the ads to see details.

you will see it on some of the trombones made before the 1911 production (those made prior to May 17, 1910 patent date would be marked "patent pending" or some diveration of that)through the '20s.

the curved bell brace we are familiar with on the King 2B appears to have begun in the mid 20's:

http://www.hnwhite.com/King/Trombone%20Page/1924%20No%201105%20and%20No%201106%20Utility%20Large.png

I have a late '20s King Model 1455 which has both the curve/straight frist braces on the slide along with the curved bell brace.

I hope this info helps.
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Allen
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« Reply #15 on: Jun 29, 2010, 08:11AM »

Sorry I didn't get a chance to put up any pics last night. Will see if I can do that tonight.

CF

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curtisman
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« Reply #16 on: Jun 30, 2010, 08:35AM »

Here are a couple more pics of the braces.

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« Reply #17 on: Jul 11, 2010, 07:39AM »

I thought I recognized that horn,

Welcome to the forum Chris.

By the way, all of your former horns are well taken care of and well played, now I just need to play them well.

~Bjorn Carlson
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