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evan51
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« on: Aug 23, 2010, 11:25AM »

http://readersupportednews.org/off-site-opinion-section/72-72/2765-behind-obama-muslim-myth-stands-the-right-wing

Following are two excerpts, but the original quotes many more examples of right wing rhetoric, in particular Rush calling Obama, "Imam Obama."

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Pew, Time polls find that an increasing number of Americans believe Obama is a Muslim

Pew: Nearly "one-in-five Americans" now say Obama is a Muslim. On August 18, the Pew Research Center released a survey on Obama and religion, conducted in early August. The poll found that "nearly one-in-five Americans (18%) now say Obama is a Muslim, up from 11% in March 2009," while "only about one-third of adults (34%) say Obama is a Christian, down sharply from 48% in 2009." The survey also found that "43% say they do not know what Obama's religion is." Pew went on to state: "The view that Obama is a Muslim is more widespread among his political opponents than among his backers." It also added:
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    When asked how they learned about Obama's religion in an open-ended question, 60% of those who say Obama is a Muslim cite the media. Among specific media sources, television (at 16%) is mentioned most frequently. About one-in-ten (11%) of those who say Obama is a Muslim say they learned of this through Obama's own words and behavior.

Time: 24 percent of Americans believe Obama is a Muslim. In a poll also released on August 18, Time magazine, in conjunction with polling firm ABT/SRBI, found that 24 percent of Americans believe Obama is a Muslim. Time stated that "just 47% of respondents believe Obama is a Christian; 24% declined to respond to the question or said they were unsure, and 5% believe he is neither Christian nor Muslim."
Right wing media relentlessly drive Obama-Muslim falsehood

Right-wing media have relentlessly pushed the myth that Obama is a Muslim. In the past two years, the conservative media has continued to lie about Obama's personal history, dishonestly distorting his faith to claim that he is in fact a Muslim and not a Christian. Those untruths have run the gamut -- from outright claiming that Obama is a Muslim to alleging that he "is a Christian that Christians don't recognize"; from using his family and upbringing in Indonesia to portray him as an "Islamist" to claiming he has an agenda that shows he has a "preference of Islam over Christianity"; and from distorting comments Obama or his administration has made to picking out symbols associated with his administration to perpetuate the lie about his faith. Conservatives have even used the Pew and Time polls today to further rehash these falsehoods.

The ability of the Right to create false narratives around lies and non-issues is becoming legendary. When one has nothing to substance to contribute to political discourse all he has is the lie and rhetorical narratives.
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« Reply #1 on: Aug 23, 2010, 11:36AM »

You realize that no matter how much you quote this stuff, you still won't convince anybody.

First we had Reverend Wright.  I don't remember him ever saying he was a Muslim, but he was Obama's pastor in Illinois.  Guess that doesn't count.

We have folks here who if Obama said the sky is blue would counter that the sky is pink.  Or yellow.  Or puce.

We have people who complain about the deficit, but won't raise taxes.

We have people who think we need to fight wars, but we shouldn't have a draft or pay a war tax.

We have people who think that members of a certain religion are all terrorists, but nobody from any other religion could be a terrorist.
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« Reply #2 on: Aug 23, 2010, 11:50AM »

You realize that no matter how much you quote this stuff, you still won't convince anybody.

It's good to expose The Crazy for those who are inclined to appreciate pearls, but it makes absolutely no sense to invest anything at all in any hope or effort to correct such infantile "thinking" and behavior directly. It simply has to be marginalized, just as adults actually throwing literal tantrums in the grocery store is marginalized (if it happens we recognize there's something clinical going on). We just haven't yet gotten over the shock, it seems, over so many adults in the US doing more or less precisely the analog of the grocery store tantrum in the form of their "thinking" regarding pretty much any and every recent political event. I'm hoping we get over our repulsion and face what's actually going on before we're too far over the cliff edge to recover our footing.
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evan51
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« Reply #3 on: Aug 23, 2010, 11:54AM »

You realize that no matter how much you quote this stuff, you still won't convince anybody.
Perhaps not, Bruce.

Many of us can remember a time when politics and religion were separate----the congregations of a church, synagogue were fairly equally divided and diverse in their politics. Surveys from thirty years ago confirm that half of "born again" Christians were Democrats---today over 80% are Republicans. Many Christan Churches have become chapters of the Republican Party (reflected in IRS proceedings against them). This is a situation which would have caused the FF to squirm in the benches.

The Reagan NeoCon legacy was to put the tools of religion into the hands of politicians, while the ignorance of people let it happen. We now have a situation where indisputable facts have been replaced by opinions and "belief systems." So a situation of false certainty developments---the same false certainty that derives from reciting the Nicene Creed and accepting the trappings of a belief system. We've achieved a status where political discourse is impossible where people can't take in basic facts.

A dilapidated Burlington coat factory several blacks away becomes "ground zero," an Islamic Cultural Center becomes a "mosque," a Jewish rabbi becomes a Roman god. Religion and politics have become intertwined where "believing" not replaced learning, knowledge and intelligent discourse.

Many of us find this disconcerting.
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« Reply #4 on: Aug 23, 2010, 11:58AM »

some of us hope and pray for the time where there was discussion of issues

even when my side lost, it didn't leave the type of taste I get in my mouth now a days
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Allen
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« Reply #5 on: Aug 23, 2010, 12:03PM »

At least the Right understands its constituency and is willing to apply psychology tested by like-minded individuals.

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...the rank and file are usually much more primitive than we imagine. Propaganda must therefore always be essentially simple and repetitious. The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly...it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over.

Source: Joseph Goebbels
And....

Quote
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

"WMD's.......WMD's......"
"Saddam hired Al-Qaeda to do 9/11..."
"Obama is a Muslim....."

Repeat after me class.
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« Reply #6 on: Aug 23, 2010, 12:12PM »

At least the Right understands its constituency and is willing to apply psychology tested by like-minded individuals.
And....

"WMD's.......WMD's......"
"Saddam hired Al-Qaeda to do 9/11..."
"Obama is a Muslim....."

Repeat after me class.
And 10% of dems think he's muslim.  Left out that stat didn't you.  BFD who cares?
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« Reply #7 on: Aug 23, 2010, 12:28PM »

Hard core right wingers are really fond of the tu quoque fallacy!
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« Reply #8 on: Aug 23, 2010, 12:30PM »

Hard core right wingers are really fond of the tu quoque fallacy!
Ha dot make sure you had all of the facts not just the ones that support your case.  Didn't seek to discredit anyone.  Just said who cares.
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« Reply #9 on: Aug 23, 2010, 01:02PM »

And 10% of dems think he's muslim.  Left out that stat didn't you.  BFD who cares?

yes, that is an example of an old joke about Republicans from Nebraska:

Tom Osborne, long time coach of the University of Nebraska Football, winner of National Championships retired.  He decided to run as a Republican for the US Sentate.  He won the election with something like 80% of the vote.  There were demands for an investigation into his election.   No one could figure out why he didn't have 100% of the vote.

morale: there will always be a portion of the American electoric which are just plan dumb.  However I know of no Democratic leader or blogger saying that the President is a Muslim
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Allen
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« Reply #10 on: Aug 23, 2010, 01:16PM »

yes, that is an example of an old joke about Republicans from Nebraska:

Tom Osborne, long time coach of the University of Nebraska Football, winner of National Championships retired.  He decided to run as a Republican for the US Sentate.  He won the election with something like 80% of the vote.  There were demands for an investigation into his election.   No one could figure out why he didn't have 100% of the vote.

morale: there will always be a portion of the American electoric which are just plan dumb.  However I know of no Democratic leader or blogger saying that the President is a Muslim
No I haven't seen one either.  I'm just saying it flows both ways. Remember when Dan Rather ran with the Bush National Guard story? The left is always saying that the right has no ideas and and are extreme and so on.  It's to the lefts advantage to only look and publicize the extreme right just like the right does to the left.  I say ignore the extremes altogether although it's not quite as news worthy.
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« Reply #11 on: Aug 23, 2010, 01:45PM »

speaking personally, I think you will find that I have quoted material from "both" sides.  Often, I am told I quote too much.

are you saying I need to quote more.  Think carefully before you answer.

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Allen
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evan51
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« Reply #12 on: Aug 23, 2010, 04:13PM »

Hard core right wingers are really fond of the tu quoque fallacy!
Yes; and we aren't talking about how many of any subgroup believes the lies, but rather the source of the lies.

I can't tell if some posters are brilliant humorists or deliciously twisted examples proving my point.
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« Reply #13 on: Aug 24, 2010, 09:10AM »

Now, why would 20% of Americans think Obama is a Muslim?

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Ah, but the perception that he is a Muslim persists. Now, why might that be?


Let me count the reasons...

http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/08/now_why_would_20_of_americans.html

read the article completely as Sly likes to say, if you're really interested.....Just saying.....

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« Reply #14 on: Aug 24, 2010, 09:15AM »

Have a look here:

 Evil Evil

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« Reply #15 on: Aug 24, 2010, 09:24AM »

Have a look here:

 Evil Evil



Dang, you read some weird stuff!!  Evil
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« Reply #16 on: Aug 24, 2010, 09:29AM »

Dang, you read some weird stuff!!  Evil

not as weird as this:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/08/now_why_would_20_of_americans.html

I think in terms of that web site

"american thinker"

we have a new addition to the oxymoron list


jmvho of course.
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Allen
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« Reply #17 on: Aug 24, 2010, 12:13PM »

not as weird as this:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/08/now_why_would_20_of_americans.html

I think in terms of that web site

"american thinker"

we have a new addition to the oxymoron list


jmvho of course.

please explain how that site is a new addition to the oxymoron list. I bet you can't refute any of the points. You always like to brag how 'your' opinions are based on fact. :)

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« Reply #18 on: Aug 24, 2010, 12:35PM »

why do I have to back up my statement when you refuse to do the same.

<thanks for the opening>

Quote from: sly fox on Today at 11:03 am <although admittedly, it is from a different thread, but dd "opened the door" as the judges say>
still waiting dd  point out the "mistakes" for me:

Recognize one God, as opposed to multiple Gods

recognize some of the same prophets as are found in the Jewish faith- Abraham, Noah are some

accepts the virgin birth of Jesus

honors Mary the mother of Jesus

there have been persecutions of different sects (denominations) of each religion - Shi'a vs. Sunni, Protestant vs. Catholics, attrocities on all sides.

persecutions of nonbelievers of each religion by the "fathful" Christian vs. Muslim,  Christians vs. Jews, Jews vs. Muslim, Muslims vs. Jews, did I leave anyone out, if so, it was unintentional

and yes dd I will keep posting this until you explain:

Quote from: ddickerson on Today at 08:25 am
Your list of similarities are not correct.

what is so hard about it dd?  just being stubborn?  I'll let you in on a secret, ain't nothing as stubborn as my blood line, trust me.

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Allen
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« Reply #19 on: Aug 24, 2010, 12:47PM »

This site should remove the H and place an S in front of the last word.  What a crock of BS!  Just a couple of the ad-hoc tidbits thown together in a melange:

Quote
Add the weight of Obama's outward and pronounced humiliations of Israel's prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, and Obama's continual strong-arming the Israelis to stop building upon their own land so as not to irritate the Palestinians, and the perception of Obama's fealty to Muslims grows mightily.

Israel has been building settlements on land claimed by the Palestinians as part of their West Bank nation.  These settlements are a land grab by religious Jews to try to prevent any of the territories taken in 1967 from ever being returned to the Palestinians (or any other Arab nation).

When Israel does wrong we should tell them.

Quote
With the elephant now growing great big tusks, the president one-ups himself and ceremoniously throws the weight of the presidency into the Ground Zero mosque debate. Choosing the symbolically significant White House Iftar dinner, in honor of Ramadan, with a roomful of prominent Muslims from around the world, the president clearly endorsed building the Cordoba House mosque. And no effort at political backtracking can remove that perception. The "Obama is a Muslim" elephant is beginning to stink at this point.

This Community Center is to be built on land owned by the Muslims, out of sight of Ground Zero, and within NY City Building Codes.  Obama is required to uphold the Constitution, which talks to the sanctity of private property.  This is utter nonsense.

Quote
Despite a later claim to Christian conversion, Barack Obama was born Muslim, to a Muslim father, who gave him a Muslim name, "Barack Hussein." As anyone who knows even a smidgen of Islamic theology well understands, Islam is a religion conferred by the father to his children at birth, in which the father claims his child for Allah, if you will. Since Barack Obama's mother openly professed -- throughout her life -- a rather pronounced disdain for all religion, it makes perfect sense that she would defer to her new husband on this religious ritual.

This is another crock.  First of all, transfer of religion in Islam and Judaism comes from the mother.  Add to this Obama's father ducking out when he was still small, his mother would have had to tend to his religious upbringing.  Which she did by farming him out to his grandparents, WASPs.  Obama has not been brought up in the Muslim faith.  He was probably brought up with no faith.  He adopted his wife's pastor.

Quote
As all Westerners agree, however, there isn't much in a given name. Islamists, on the other hand, put a great deal of emphasis on this at-birth claim for Allah. And as the New York Times so eloquently pointed out during the campaign, whether Obama (or we) likes it or not, the Islamic world now views Barack Hussein Obama as an apostate to Islam, which under Islamic law is the most grievous offense a man born Muslim can commit.

Obama is a Westerner.  A native born American.  Raised as an American.  How can you impute Middle Eastern approaches to him?  There is no proof.

Quote
Not only was Obama born a Muslim, but while living in Indonesia from age six to ten, he was registered in school as a Muslim, regularly studied the Koran, and openly stated in public in 2007 that the Muslim call to prayer was the "prettiest sound" he had ever heard. Fine. I sincerely doubt that many Americans really wish to parse Obama's religious claims now on the strength of childhood experiences alone.

What does this have to do with fish?  The school Obama attended in Indonesia was no Madrasah.  It was actually more like a Prep School.  So he may have had some contact with Qoran, but only like you might study History or Buddhist Theory.  Besides, he left there age 10.  How much indoctrination could he have absorbed?  I had to attend Hebrew School after my regular school from age 8 to age 13 and I'm still not religious.

The rest of this stuff is a collection of non-sequiturs that are put together with increasing foaming and frothing at the mouth to build a fabric of such poor strength that the wind would blow it away.
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