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[jRent2011]

I just got an edition (One of the many out there...) of the Bach cello suites from a new cello friend of mine. I'm absolutely loving the second suite. I've got the prelude down very well, but I'm also working on the sarabande. My question is how do different people approach the double stops in these suites and/or string music in general. I've tried playing through it just playing the melody line but it's really boring sounding compared to the cello version. So then I tried kind of breaking up the chords and playing the lower notes like grace notes leading into the top note that is part of the melody. Any standard or other ways to do them?

[BarryLee]

Multiphonics are your friend. Try it.

I play them in private, myself. (Cf. Oscar Wilde's definition of a gentleman and his saxophone.)

They're very good, aren't they? I've been playing them all my trombone-playing life.

But I keep it hid.

[GetzenBassPlayer]

Of the recordings and performances I have heard of the Cello Suites over the years, I can't say that I remember anyone using multiphonics. I would find the melody note and play just that. I find them challenging enough without adding anything else 

[Jeff Smith]

I arpeggiate them like you do.

But, I'm nothing special, so take it or leave it.

[Andrew Meronek]

I think that arpeggiating them is the most musical way to handle them.  On a cello, triple and quadruple-stops have to be arpeggiated anyway, because of how the bridge is curved.

[savio]

I arpeggiate them like you do.

But, I'm nothing special, so take it or leave it.

I arpeggiate them too, but maybe there are some other way to do it. In the Douglas Yeo site there is some other solutions Im going to try from the sarabande, second suite. Looks interesting and it can be fun to try out some other ideas. I think something will be missing if dont play some of the chord notes one way or another.

We are all special tbonegeek07, one way or another..

Leif

[Gabe Langfur]

Try everything! Ray Premru would arpeggiate some things, but in that particular sarabande he would only do the ones that he felt didn't break the melodic line. I tend to do more arpeggiation than he did.

The suggestion of Doug Yeo's versions is excellent. Here's the link to his (very generously!) free performing editions: http://www.yeodoug.com/publications/pdf/pdf.html

He makes excellent, thoughtful choices that are definitely worth trying. You might find that you really like some of them and make different choices on others, and that's perfectly fine. The key is to make a choice that you have considered and experimented with.

There's also a book about playing the Bach cello suites on trombone by Mark Lusk, with a demo CD included. Great stuff, also definitely worth buying and trying.

[Ralph Sauer]

Shameless plug---My solutions to all 6 suites are published by Williams Music, Inc. A bass trombone/tuba version is published by Cherry Classics Music. The tenor version (Williams Music) also includes a CD of me playing the entire first suite. By the way, Cherry Classics also publishes a trumpet and a horn version. All the Cherry versions are available in PDF downloads, too.
Cheers,
Ralph Sauer

[bonespiel]

I prefer to arpeggiate as much as possible; however, sometimes one must choose to play less than the full arpeggio or change the order thereof to get the best musicality.  By the way, I looked for Mr. Sauer's version of the suites on the Cherry Classics website, but couldn't find them. 

[JimR]

Here's the link to the tuba (bass bone) and other transcriptions by Mr. Sauer.  Scroll down to number 273 for the pdf download.

https://secure.cherry-classics.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/CCMusic.woa/wa/brassSheetMusic

I think I'll order them!

Jim

[Ralph Sauer]

If you check back to my original post, you will see that the "tenor" trombone version is published by Williams Music Inc. not Cherry Classics. Suites 1 through 5 are in the original keys, while number 6 is transposed to a more friendly key. This edition also includes a CD performance of number 1.

Bass trombonists can also play this version, of course, and in both editions, you will find an actual playable version of number 6. A lifetime of enjoyment is guaranteed!!

[valver]

Back in July, I recorded my way through the 2nd suite (on euphonium) over at my blog (http://jeffomeetstelemann.blogspot.com). 

Here's the link to the prelude-- http://jeffomeetstelemann.blogspot.com/2010/07/audio-post-bach-cello-suite-2-prelude.html --along the right side of the page are links to the other movements.

A lot of the fun (and challenge) of the cello suites on a brass instument is trying to come up with creative, viable ways of dealing with chords (and musical lines that go for two pages without a marked breath).

[Deerleg]

Haha this is a good post.

I play these often and I was talking to a tuba grad student who played prelude for his senior recital. He said this and it completely changed my opinion of these:

You can't try to play cello suites like a cello on a brass instrument. If you start acting like a brass player and playing them like a brass player, you will start to sound like you know what your doing.

After that they were one of the best things I had ever played. I was always trying to mimick YoYo Ma and it was the biggestg waste of probably two days worth of practice time. I'm ready to go to bed now, but I think I will have to go play prelude....

[Nathan Wood]

I agree that you have to reinterpret them in context of the sounds you're actually making BUT I also think that there are a lot of great recordings out there of cellists doing things that can and should be emulated by other instrumentalists trying to play them. In general, I've heard wind players make the cello suites sound like technical etudes most of the times I've heard them performed or played in a practice room. Of course there's a lot of compromises that have to be made when you're playing them on an instrument where the performer has to stop to breathe every 5 seconds and can only play one note at a time, but most of the phrasing can still be executed in some way or another.

My favorite recording of the cello suites is the one by Heinrich Schiff. His tempi are quite a bit faster in a lot of instances than most people would ever take, but he's an absolutely fantastic musician. Since the trombone has a less engaging tone than the cello, it usually benefits from these faster tempi (and usually lets me get through the phrases for once...).

[Dukesboneman]

I`ve been playing the cello suites since High School (Early `70`s) and still play them and still amazed
at how beautiful they are. A couple of years ago I purchaced the trumpet version and have been using it with my advanced trumpet students. They love it and they have progressed faster. I use them as a Jazz tool because you can really hear the changes.

[digitaltrombone]

I love the 2nd suite too, it sound great and is really nice to play on trombone.

I actually made a brass edition of the first two cello suites recently, removing all the double stops while I was at it. And while I was at it, I made a version with suite 1 & 2 in all keys.

Take a look here:
http://www.digitaltrombone.com/bach-cello-suites-in-all-keys.html

This is starting to look like a bad sales pitch, but I thought that this might be what you are looking for!

Cheers

[malec]

Try everything! Ray Premru would arpeggiate some things, but in that particular sarabande he would only do the ones that he felt didn't break the melodic line. I tend to do more arpeggiation than he did.

The suggestion of Doug Yeo's versions is excellent. Here's the link to his (very generously!) free performing editions: http://www.yeodoug.com/publications/pdf/pdf.html

He makes excellent, thoughtful choices that are definitely worth trying. You might find that you really like some of them and make different choices on others, and that's perfectly fine. The key is to make a choice that you have considered and experimented with.

There's also a book about playing the Bach cello suites on trombone by Mark Lusk, with a demo CD included. Great stuff, also definitely worth buying and trying.

So I purchased and just received the Lusk edition. I have to say I am less than impressed.

The layout seems awkward to me. Like some of the things I did when I was learning how to use finale. Uneven staves between pages, strange spacing that leaves quarter pages blank and "crowded" or "stretched" measures. It's just not pleasing to the eye and doesn't help to facilitate what are already fairly difficult pieces to make music out of.

The kicker, though, is that there are numerous errors in the edition that have been CORRECTED WITH A PEN. I understand that the sheet music business has to maintain a low overhead to even come close to being profitable, but at what cost?

Hickeys, who have a no return policy (understandable) on sheet music have graciously offered to take the item in return or exchange. So should I take the dough and spend it on spiral binding the Yeo edition on some nice stock or man up and get a cello edition? If I go for the cello edition which one should I get? I was hoping for a clean and professional edition to replace my dated and well used Keith Brown book.

[savio]

This site has the Anna Magdalenas sheet music.

http://www.wimmercello.com/bachs1ms.html

Or what they believe is her manuscript. Who knows. I have seen so many editions. I like the one I made my self. They only have the notes, no phrasing lines or other expressions. Then I play them the way they suit me that day. Music obvious have no "definitive answear". It is inside each one of us. Bring it out.

Leif

[HouBassTrombone]

Go with Mr. Sauer's version. I have been playing the bass trombone version for years and the tenor one is just as good.

So I purchased and just received the Lusk edition. I have to say I am less than impressed.

The layout seems awkward to me. Like some of the things I did when I was learning how to use finale. Uneven staves between pages, strange spacing that leaves quarter pages blank and "crowded" or "stretched" measures. It's just not pleasing to the eye and doesn't help to facilitate what are already fairly difficult pieces to make music out of.

The kicker, though, is that there are numerous errors in the edition that have been CORRECTED WITH A PEN. I understand that the sheet music business has to maintain a low overhead to even come close to being profitable, but at what cost?

Hickeys, who have a no return policy (understandable) on sheet music have graciously offered to take the item in return or exchange. So should I take the dough and spend it on spiral binding the Yeo edition on some nice stock or man up and get a cello edition? If I go for the cello edition which one should I get? I was hoping for a clean and professional edition to replace my dated and well used Keith Brown book.

[malec]

This site has the Anna Magdalenas sheet music.

http://www.wimmercello.com/bachs1ms.html

Or what they believe is her manuscript. Who knows. I have seen so many editions. I like the one I made my self. They only have the notes, no phrasing lines or other expressions. Then I play them the way they suit me that day. Music obvious have no "definitive answear". It is inside each one of us. Bring it out.

Leif

I was attracted to the Lusk edition for that very reason. A trombonified but clean expression. Too bad it hurt my eyes.

Maybe the real thing to do is to learn the damn things from a recording and rock the Bach that way.

[malec]

Go with Mr. Sauer's version. I have been playing the bass trombone version for years and the tenor one is just as good.

Don't lead me astray man. I'm already smarting from this debacle.

I have heard a recording of Ralph Sauer playing the first suite and he kills it.

It's too bad that even in NYC you can't go to a sheet music store and browse any more.

[HouBassTrombone]

You can view the pdfs on the Cherry's website... Almost like browsing.
-Z

[malec]

Reading Mr. Sauer's post more carefully the tenor version is published by Williams Music. Looks like the site is down... too bad the local fauna weren't receptive to Ralph's giving nature.

Cello edition recommends are still being accepted.

[W/SBTRB]

There is no doubt in my mind that the Sauer editions would be excellent. I would order them but then I need to pay for tires and gifts for the grandkids. I like the Marstellar edition that I have used for years and also use a cello edition that doesn't have so much editing.....Can't remember what one it is. The old Pablo Casals recordings are good for trombonists to figure out breathing and phrasing.

[sanfranboner]

I was attracted to the Lusk edition for that very reason. A trombonified but clean expression. Too bad it hurt my eyes.

I think you have perhaps misunderstood the intent of his book.  Mr. Lusk only provides an "arrangement" of the d minor suite as an example, and the rest are printed in urtext.  The point of his book is to provide one with the tools to create one's own performing versions based on educated reasoning, as well as general thoughts about interpreting them, and exercises to aid in that goal. 

I like this approach because I have yet to see a published arrangement for trombone with which I agree on all of the choices of trombonistic accommodations and articulation decisions made by the various editors, with all due respect to those highly accomplished trombonists/editors.  Some of these I just have slightly different ideas than in spots, while some I feel are pretty terrible.  Though I enjoy studying what others have decided to do, in the end I prefer to make my own choices.

I will agree with you completely that they are ugly to look at, but for whatever reason that does not bother me, and I am quite happy with this book.  My recommendation given your posts would be to buy a well-printed urtext edition for cello.

[HouBassTrombone]

+1

My recommendation given your posts would be to buy a well-printed urtext edition for cello.

[David Gross]

I use the "Edition Peters" (for cello) edited by Becker. It's the version I often see on cello players' music stands. It is one of the cheapest (err...ahem... most inexpensive) editions, yet suits my needs just fine.

[malec]

Just picked up the Barenreiter urtext edition for cello. There is a lot in here including 5 different manuscripts, a performance edition with all readings from the five sources (beautifully presented I might add) and a text volume with performance notes. It was about twice as expensive as the Lusk, but well worth it. I think I have a lifetime of study material here.

[HouBassTrombone]

The cello suites are more than a lifetime of study! I have been working on them for 8 years so far. I finally have the notes under my fingers and now I am really getting into style... to play like a cello? play like a trombone? And it is a blast.

[Matt K]

So I purchased and just received the Lusk edition. I have to say I am less than impressed.

The layout seems awkward to me. Like some of the things I did when I was learning how to use finale. Uneven staves between pages, strange spacing that leaves quarter pages blank and "crowded" or "stretched" measures. It's just not pleasing to the eye and doesn't help to facilitate what are already fairly difficult pieces to make music out of.

The kicker, though, is that there are numerous errors in the edition that have been CORRECTED WITH A PEN. I understand that the sheet music business has to maintain a low overhead to even come close to being profitable, but at what cost?

snip

I was under the impression that the pen are common "fixes" to the original manuscript.  Which it does a good job of that.  At least I think it does.

[malec]

I was under the impression that the pen are common "fixes" to the original manuscript.  Which it does a good job of that.  At least I think it does.

I'm no cello suite scholar... though it looks like I'm about to become one. The edition I bought presents the interpretations of the different manuscripts in a well thought out and clearly printed manner. Someone, probably Mark Lusk himself, went through the available copies of his edition and crossed out the printed errors with a pen writing in the correct note and a letter indication for the note above or below it. I was told that the options were this or to include a separate errata sheet.

No matter... I don't want to harp too much on the Lusk. I am sure that for many it is an excellent study/performance edition regardless of the print quality.

For me it's kind of like appreciating the way your horn looks. The bottom line is it doesn't matter if you like the way your horn looks or not... or does it? Much like my early 80's 42 the Barenreiter edition inspires me to pick it up and play it just because of the vibrational richness that the creators instilled in it. 

[Ellrod]

With thanks to this forum, this thread, Mr. Sauer, and Mr Malec, I have gratefully purchased Mr. S's version of the cello suites transcribed for bass trombone/tuba from Mr. Cherry's site. Only $15 (+ tax) = cheap like borscht.

Someone referred to a RS recording of one of the suites. Where might one find that?

I've been working on the K Brown version for nearly 40 years (since 1974). I'm partial to the sarabande from #4.

[HouBassTrombone]

Ellrod: What do you think of the Mr. S version? I love it. Only thing is the Sarabande from 5 that you have to learn is not in the right key. So I just taped that page in another place.

[Ellrod]

Ellrod: What do you think of the Mr. S version? I love it. Only thing is the Sarabande from 5 that you have to learn is not in the right key. So I just taped that page in another place.

Yes, I'm told the Sarabande from #5 shows up on btrb auditions fairly regularly. I don't expect that to be much of an issue.

I just printed the first few pages from the pdf download. I'll probably run through some of it tonight.

You know, according to some, the world, or at least the world as Americans have come to know it, is going down the toilet. But, Bach, delivered directly to your computer via the net, for not very much money - is still pretty good.

[HouBassTrombone]

You know, according to some, the world, or at least the world as Americans have come to know it, is going down the toilet. But, Bach, delivered directly to your computer via the net, for not very much money - is still pretty good.

That is the best thing I have heard in a long time.

Another really fun one to look at is the Minute 1 and 2 from Prelude 1.
-Z

[malec]

With thanks to this forum, this thread, Mr. Sauer, and Mr Malec, I have gratefully purchased Mr. S's version of the cello suites transcribed for bass trombone/tuba from Mr. Cherry's site. Only $15 (+ tax) = cheap like borscht.

Someone referred to a RS recording of one of the suites. Where might one find that?

I've been working on the K Brown version for nearly 40 years (since 1974). I'm partial to the sarabande from #4.

The cello suites have been a part of my daily practice for longer than I am willing to admit. Anyway people always panned the Keith Brown edition, but I still have a soft spot in my heart for that now ragged old version.

This new edition I got is really getting me going though. Funny how your perception of the music changes through just a few seemingly incidental differences between printed versions.

I'm not sure the Sauer recording is available. If not it's too bad because it was something else... real fire in that one. Also too bad that we can't just ask Mr. Sauer to weigh in because he left the forum.

[savio]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHIeKBTJnXw&feature=g-user-u&context=G12dedUCGXQYbcTJ33ZH2PaAPVojOCjbs8GS4iCpygcTY2FCr6Y

We could ask this guy about them. He have a CD where he play the 1st suite, all of it. But he don't use any sheet music as I can see. To play it like this I feel there is so many aspects about my playing that have to get dramatic better. But its very inspiring to see it actually can be done. Amazing. Well, I go to practice room and do some long notes to improve my playing. Have to start somewhere?

Leif

[HouBassTrombone]

I love this guys playing Leif. I came across it the other day. I have been working on that prelude for 2 months now, and listening to this guy really helps.
-Z