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sabutin

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« Reply #20 on: Dec 05, 2010, 08:29AM »

"Buzzing"...freebuzzing, cutoff rim buzzing, m'pce buzzing...works if done correctly. Any and all other fairly well recognized approaches to embouchure development and brass playing also work. The key phrase here is "if done correctly."

Long story very short about all buzzing approaches...do not buzz anything that you do not almost immediately relate to the horn. Not until you get very, very good at the relating part, anyway. And the reverse. Free buzzes that come off of playing the horn, m'pce or cutoff rim will tend to be more "correct"...more well related...to how you play than will buzzes that are started w/out any reference to the rim at all. Particularly...do not free buzz w/out constantly relating it to the rim of whatever m'pce you are using. Cutoff rim, m'pce, or m'pce in the horn. It's the relationship between the freebuzz and the rim that allows some people to, as Doug says, immediately get it right...the relationship between their buzz and the rim. Some people have it immediately and some others do not. It can be learned, though.

I say "it" can be learned, but in reality it should be stated as "they" can be learned. The relationships between buzzing and the rim...or more complicated yet, multiple rims if you are a doubler who uses different rims...are different for different people through multiple ranges.

I devote perhaps 10% of my practice time to buzzing approaches. Maybe 20% of my teaching time and a great deal of my book, "Time, Balance And Connections" are also buzzing-related.

For more info, read my article BUZZ ON, BUZZ OFF. THEY BOTH WORK.

Later...

S.
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« Reply #21 on: Dec 05, 2010, 07:05PM »

Derek Watkins (fantastic lead trumpeter in London) told me : “I can´t buzz a f***ing tone but I can play all the tones on my trumpet”

Buzzing is not a “must” to reach mastery of brass playing.

I agree with that. I think the smaller the mpc the more attention players spend their time buzzing. Which is why trumpet players (and wannabee trombone/trumpet players) make it such a big deal. I think it helps understanding how to approach the higher partials (6th and above) and I think it helps train the ear to play in tune. I do about 3 minutes a day, usually in the car to wake up my chops. If I don't, I don't miss it.

Not nearly as important to me as good solid sounding long tones for my arsenal.
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« Reply #22 on: Dec 05, 2010, 10:16PM »

I agree with that. I think the smaller the mpc the more attention players spend their time buzzing. Which is why trumpet players (and wannabee trombone/trumpet players) make it such a big deal. I think it helps understanding how to approach the higher partials (6th and above) and I think it helps train the ear to play in tune. I do about 3 minutes a day, usually in the car to wake up my chops. If I don't, I don't miss it.

Not nearly as important to me as good solid sounding long tones for my arsenal.


"...the smaller the mpc the more attention players spend their time buzzing?"

Yeah?

Why do you think that?

I use it on tubas, bass trombones, orchestral trombones, .525 trombones, .508 trombones and .500 trombones...all w/very typical m'pce sizes for their bores. If I had a .485, an alto or or a contrabass I'd use it on them, too.

Why?

Because it works, of course.

Duh.

Sven wrote:

Quote
Buzzing is not a “must” to reach mastery of brass playing.

To which you replied:

Quote
I agree with that.

So far so good.

But then you go off on some half-baked tangent about "...why trumpet players (and wannabee trombone/trumpet players) make [buzzing] such a big deal."

You say:

Quote
...it helps understanding how to approach the higher partials (6th and above) and I think it helps train the ear to play in tune.

Why would you say it only helps the higher partials? I know from years of experience that buzzing is just as valuable down through the pedal ranges, and I can prove it. When I have trouble in the sub (8VB)  range...on tuba particularly, going down into the pedals of my EEb...buzzing (freebuzzing particularly)  is what helps me find my balances down there. Every time. Same deal on the  area on large tenors and basses.

Where did you get this idea that it's only for upper ranges and small m'pces?

It is absolutely and totally without merit.

Bet on it.

And if it "...helps train the ear to play in tune"...the chop, really because the ear doesn't play anything, it just directs...then does that mean that lower notes don't need to be played in tune or that they are somehow easier to play in tune?

Please.

Make some sense.

S.



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« Reply #23 on: Dec 06, 2010, 03:01AM »

I told before I never been good at buzzing and are happy to read that buzzing is maybe not a "must" for all. I can of course not play everything but my sound is what people always tell is OK. I also buzz about 3 min. or so before I start on the horn. And like JP some days nothing. It seems to work OK for me. It seems to me we all have different needs?

Leif

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« Reply #24 on: Dec 07, 2010, 05:37PM »

Suggestion for improving the buzzing-

Don't do it.

I've found it may help to do just a few short minutes of buzzing before playing just to give them an idea of what to do once the mouthpiece is on the lips, but beyond that... you're looking to cause some problems.

Playing low brass is about playing low brass.

Only use buzzing sparingly when it is helpful.

If you keep working on it and it isn't going anywhere- it isn't helpful! Stop!

Take care,
B0B
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« Reply #25 on: Dec 07, 2010, 06:58PM »

Suggestion for improving the buzzing-

Don't do it.

I've found it may help to do just a few short minutes of buzzing before playing just to give them an idea of what to do once the mouthpiece is on the lips, but beyond that... you're looking to cause some problems.

Playing low brass is about playing low brass.

Only use buzzing sparingly when it is helpful.

If you keep working on it and it isn't going anywhere- it isn't helpful! Stop!

Take care,
B0B
I agree with that, I think the smaller the mpc, the more attention you spend to "buzzing". The routines I do, I spend about 3 minutes (usually in the car) on the mpc.

With students, if they are having problems finding upper reg notes, I add a little mpc stuff. But not much.
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« Reply #26 on: Dec 07, 2010, 10:03PM »

I agree with that, I think the smaller the mpc, the more attention you spend to "buzzing". The routines I do, I spend about 3 minutes (usually in the car) on the mpc.

With students, if they are having problems finding upper reg notes, I add a little mpc stuff. But not much.

Unbelievable.

Just clomp clomp clomping on along regardless of what anyone else says.

I personally have only one thing left to say besides what I said above...aimed at those young players who are trying to figure things out.

When you meet people who only have one lick...teachers, other players, whosever...beware. They will run their Johny One-Note game on you if you allow them to do so. Look at their credentials, first of all. Who they have played with, what their real work and teaching experience has been. Then...listen to their playing. It is almost always as one-dimensional as their teaching. Usually safe but sorry.

You'll often find them in positions of authority...teachers, administrators, bosses...yes (GASP!!!) even "moderators." They fall upwards in the system because they mostly don't really work at what they are supposed to do so they have plenty of time to politic and busybody. But by and large they have nothing to offer but their own self-aggrandizement.

Ignore them.

If you really, truly want to learn how to play, learn to ignore them.

You be bettah off.

Bet on it.

Much bettah off.

Later...

S.

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« Reply #27 on: Dec 08, 2010, 01:04AM »

Sam, isn't it so there is different needs for different individuals. Many here tells about a "none buzz" approach. Use what works, eh?

For me it works OK without buzzing. When I start in the morning, my warm up is to check that things works. I check my sound, range, dynamic, legato, attack and so on. At my age I never do the same. I check, then I do more of what I feel I need that day. If I feel really bad one morning and my lips feels like "meetbolls", I buzz a little.  If everything feels OK, I just play on the horn.

This tread make me understand there is different approaches. We have to find what works for us. For most of us a good teachers is needed. Then we also learn to teach some our self. Well, an open mind is needed for people like me that want to learn more. So I think this tread is interesting. But keep it friendly maybe? I seen many pro with very different approaches, but at the same time very friendly. Easier to find information and understand this way?


Leif
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sabutin

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« Reply #28 on: Dec 08, 2010, 01:36AM »

Sam, isn't it so there is different needs for different individuals. Many here tells about a "none buzz" approach. Use what works, eh?

That is not the problem, savio.

The problem is bad information about buzzing. Information that was repeated after my thorough answer to it when it was posted he first time w/mo reference whatsoever to any opposition to the idea of "It's only good for high partials and smaller m'pces."

Quote
For me it works OK without buzzing.

Great. Try everything; use what works.

But if you are going to "try everything", and least try it right.

And if someone is going to post ridiculous pseudo-"information" as fact and I know damned well that it is not fact, I'm going to call him on it. If he continues to publicly clomp clomp clomp through the minefields of self-deception after being called on it, I am going to call him on it even harder.

That's the way it works.

The free competition of ideas.

What if he had said that the earth is flat? With a straight face. Like he meant it as something less than a joke. And then I posted a picture of the globe. And then he again posted that the earth is flat without even referring to the globe image.. If this was something like a geological website, he'd be laughed right off the site if not summarily banned.

Here?

He's a moderator.

As I posted above...unbelieveable.

Sorry savio...that's where it's at here.

Deal wid it.

S.

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« Reply #29 on: Dec 08, 2010, 04:07AM »

I read some more in your articles and book and tried it some more. To my surprise I did it better than I thought I could do. To put the mouthpiece loose in the receiver and then take it slowly out works OK for my. Surprise. I got the same pitch when moving mouthpiece out. Surprise NR. 2 was I did it very well from Bb  up to  octave up !! But low F  and pedal Bb, only air came out. No sound. But buzzing from low F and down have always been difficult.

Then I tried only mouthpiece and take it slowly away and back. This did not work so good high up but now suddenly the low register did work. I got the same pitch even on the pedals. But the lips point much more "out" when I did the low pedals. So maybe I shouldn't do it down there? A bigger/wider area of my lips did vibrate than I normally do on the horn. But it did feels good.

I have to tell I did warm up before trying. After this the embouchure felt OK and the sound was maybe with more core. Hard to say so maybe.

If I need to do this everyday I'm not sure Sam? Get stronger? Maybe I get the same effect if I do all correct and wisely on the horn? 

Leif

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« Reply #30 on: Dec 08, 2010, 05:05AM »

I had decided to take a posting break, but I cannot sit back and read this thread without saying what works in my experience.
I have never had any problems with free-buzzing... quite the opposite, in fact. I do it in the car, during practice... anytime. It only seems to make my playing more secure.
I think this is because I basically have a self-supporting embouchure... that is, it functions as a vibration scource either by itself, or with my mouthpiece resting on it.
It works in such a way that I can play, say a high Bb and remove the mouthpiece whilst continuing to buzz that note.... annoys the heck out of students  Evil
If a player's embouchure has developed using the mouthpiece rim as part of the means by which the lips are held in place, then they will only be able to free-buzz in a way that is different to their normal with-instrument embouchure.
I really don't want to get into a debate about the benefits or otherwise of free-buzzing with a different set-up to your normal one... I am not in a personal position to make that judgement... but I can say that I am very happy to be playing with a self-supporting set-up.... it makes the physical act of playing pretty easy... and when I was a kid, and seemingly playing differently, I had real problems with the upper register.
I am doing some major rebuilding work with a student at the moment... a great musician who has had all sorts of production and register problems... and I have had him develop a whole new free-buzz based way of lip vibrating, away from the instrument..... he has a perfectly controlled free-buzz from pedal Bb to high Bb, with none of the old issues..... we just need to transfer it across the the horn now.
Free-buzzing can be a great tool.....
Just use it with care and take good instruction if you have questions.

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #31 on: Dec 08, 2010, 07:14AM »

My earlier post can be missunderstood to mean that I do not free buzz, I do and some, not all, of my students do.
For me buzzing works in the whole range that I need to play in and more.
For me the buzzing embouchure should be as close to the playing setting as possible.
I do not fold my lower lip over the teeth.
I do buzz the low range, pedals and lower. I firmly believe it is good for me, and those students who can use buzzing as a tool.
Still, many good players don´t buzz. We are all different both in body and mind.
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« Reply #32 on: Dec 08, 2010, 09:55AM »

I'll add a little, too...

For me, the most valuable thing said in this thread is what Sam stated: "do not buzz anything that you do not almost immediately relate to the horn."  This is what makes all the difference to me. 

I don't do much free buzzing and only a little on the m'piece alone - mostly I used an extra m'piece in a spare leadpipe.  I'll often hold it in my right hand and my horn in the left, and then play switching back and forth without putting the leadpipe down.  This lets me very clearly hear and feel the differences that I am trying to eliminate... maybe I have trouble with short term muscle menory, but it's the immediacy of the comparison that gives me the most information.

Cheers, Jon.
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« Reply #33 on: Dec 08, 2010, 10:35AM »

Sam stated: "do not buzz anything that you do not almost immediately relate to the horn."

There are at least 2 problems with that.

Upstream (low placement) embouchures shouyld never try to relate their buzz to their playing, because doing so will encourage their mouthpiece placement toward a place it doesn't belong.

And many "beginning buzzers" simply do not have the muscles delevoped yet to be able to buzz the way they play.  Those are the players who need to "fold the lower lip over the teeth," as Sven put it, until they have developed the required control that they don't need to do that any more.

As with with many aspects of playing, how one person is able to do it is not necessarily the same as the steps needed to get to that point.

My students come to me mostly because they have problems that were not solved by other teachers - often, many other well known teachers.  Almost every one tells me they can't freebuzz and have never been able to.  When they leave my studio they are able to buzz, in a way that may not be directly related to their playing, but it is heading in the right direction and will eventually become related.  Except for the upstream players, who can make good use of freebuzzing but it will never be directly related to the way they play.
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« Reply #34 on: Dec 08, 2010, 10:42AM »

I read some more in your articles and book and tried it some more. To my surprise I did it better than I thought I could do.

This is what I have been saying, savio. It's really not that hard to do, it's just...new to people. I teach 10 year olds using the exact same approaches and they have no trouble with them at all. Why? Because they don't know that they're not supposed to be able to do them.

Quote
To put the mouthpiece loose in the receiver and then take it slowly out works OK for my. Surprise. I got the same pitch when moving mouthpiece out. Surprise NR. 2 was I did it very well from Bb  up to  octave up !! But low F  and pedal Bb, only air came out. No sound. But buzzing from low F and down have always been difficult.

Everyone has their own setup, savio, and almost everyone has ranges where as Chris says above they have "a self-supporting embouchure." The approach that I am teaching aims to find and then strengthen that kind of embouchure in every range and then connect whatever changes occur in the physicality of those setups through the ranges.

"Time, Balance and Connections-A Universal Theory Of Brass Relativity" is the name of my book.

"Balance?" A self-supporting embouchure is balanced by its very nature. Different ranges require different balances for different people because of each individual's physical makeup. Size of lips, size of teeth, size of tongue and internal resonance chamber, angles of possble jaw motion...all affect the system.

"Connections?" Through those changes however they may most naturally occur.

"Time?" That's how the connections are best practiced and learned.

Result?

A universal approach to brass embouchure.

Bet on it.

Quote
Then I tried only mouthpiece and take it slowly away and back. This did not work so good high up but now suddenly the low register did work. I got the same pitch even on the pedals. But the lips point much more "out" when I did the low pedals. So maybe I shouldn't do it down there? A bigger/wider area of my lips did vibrate than I normally do on the horn. But it did feels good.

Precisely.

"New" is not "bad." Same thing in the middle and upper ranges. Find how your embouchure best works in any and every range and then find ways to connect those settings.

This works, savio. I do not know how else to say it. It is a different approach; it takes courage to really try something new and it is not the simplest way to learn how to play a brass instrument. It requires thought and hard, consistent work. But the rewards can be quite interesting.

I just got a call to play tuba w/the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra at the NEA Jazz Masters Awards Ceremony in early January. Gil Evans music, much of which goes down into the sub-8VB  range. I am going to Cuba Monday w/the Chico O'Farrill band and I am bringing my .500 bore/11C-ish setup primarily because I play several extended Tommy Dorsey/Jimmy Knepper-influenced melodic features with the band (My influences in this style, not Chico's.), music where I regularly play melodic, good-sounding   and above on the end of the pieces.  (When I am in good shape. When I'm not? UH oh!!! Discretion is the better part of valor.) Monday night I played some really challenging bass trombone music w/the fine NYC composer Josh Shneider. Two days before the Lincoln Center thing I will be playing a rehearsal of some new music with the wonderful composer/arranger Marty Sheller, 5 horns (Alto + tenor sax, 2 trumpets + trombone) and a rhythm section where the trombone is used as a bass instrument, a jazz soloist and as a 3rd sax/3rd tpt. 4G-ish m'pce on a trigger tenor, for sure. That is a snapshot of my career, really. Good players regularly shake their heads at me and say something like "I don't know how you can do that!", and I equally regularly tell them that it can be learned if one is willing to give it a good, solid try. Most opt out. So it goes. But it can be learned. Not only that, but it can be learned on one instrument. You don't need to be a doubler. I play from the triple pedals through double Bb and above on every tenor that I practice, every day. A little less high range on the bass and tuba, but then again, a better sounding low range. How? I used these principles, and I worked my ass off.

Quote
I have to tell I did warm up before trying. After this the embouchure felt OK and the sound was maybe with more core. Hard to say so maybe.

I'll bet hat it did have more core. You got more chop vibrating, and it was in better balance. The very definition of "core." Now...will it last? Not unless you practice the approach until it becomes part of your real playing system.

Quote
If I need to do this everyday I'm not sure Sam? Get stronger? Maybe I get the same effect if I do all correct and wisely on the horn? 

Leif

If you practice it well and consistently...through the changes that will possibly be discouraging to you (just as new equipment has some downtime before you really learn it)...then yes, it will help your playing. Will you get the same effect if you "do all correct and wisely on the horn?" Yes. provided you can figure out exactly what is "correct and wise" on the horn. For you. This approach shows you the most efficient way to play in given ranges. Physically. For your own physicality. Then...if you are "correct and wise" in your practice of it, of course...it teaches you the most efficient way(s) to connect those efficient settings.

i mean....it's all hit or miss, savio. With this approach there are simply more possibilities for hits and less opportunities for misses than with approaches that are relatively undefined in their definitions of "correctly and wisely." That's the strength of the Reinhardt approach as well. It eliminates many of the possibilities for wrong turns and makes what you are doing more efficient. Without a system that does this, learning how to play a brass instrument can be like trying to negotiate an almost infinite maze, one that changes from day to day as your body and the music that you are asked to play go through their own changes.

Good hunting.

Later...

Sam
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« Reply #35 on: Dec 08, 2010, 10:54AM »

There are at least 2 problems with that.

Upstream (low placement) embouchures shouyld never try to relate their buzz to their playing, because doing so will encourage their mouthpiece placement toward a place it doesn't belong.

---snip---

Possibly. But with the addition of rim-based buzzing (rim buzzing, m'pce buzzing and playing the horn as we normally play it, m'pce in) and never overdoing the freebuzzing w/out relating it to the rim in some maner, wrong m'pce setting problems are largely ameliorated.

It's all a compromise between and among the physical setup, the rim, the resistance provided by the equipment and the resistance that the player provides with his soft machine from the lips right on back into the resonance chamber. I probably have not seen as many students as have you on a regular basis...most of my teaching is one-off as I travel or they come to NYC...but I have yet to see a fairly well developed brass player on any instrument who could not at least begin to freebuzz, relate it to the rim/m'pce/horn and gain something from the experience.

Young kids? I stick with m'pce buzzing until they are ready for freebuzzing.

That's what I have seen, anyway.

Sam
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« Reply #36 on: Dec 08, 2010, 03:47PM »

To clarify a bit here-

Buzzing, especially free buzzing, is very much a double edged sword.

Used properly, removing the trombone and sometimes the mouthpiece can help refine what the body's job is in the equation. To do that however, you must have a strong concept of what the body's job actually is first. Take away the horn, take away the mouthpiece, and ask someone to practice buzzing who really doesn't know how to play... To call that a can of worms would be an understatement. The limitations and resistance of the horn and mouthpiece are often what help young players bring their bodies in line. They work within those limitations to improve their sound, range, and ability, and slowly figure out how to make an embouchure. Slowly figure out how to breathe and blow. Without those limitations... it's easy to begin to experiment with things you could never do on a horn. It's easy to form an embouchure that has nothing to do with trombone playing. It's easy to do everything wrong.

Can buzzing help- even beginners?

Yes, It can.

I've found it can be a wonderful help when a kid just isn't getting a buzz. His sound is very airy, he has no range, and he doesn't know what to do. At that point I have the kid slightly cover the end of the mouthpiece with a finger to get some resistance, and then we work on how to make a sound. I've only found that helpful in small groups or individual however, and done in large groups it's akin to shooting yourself in the foot.

Can buzzing help much more-abled players?

Yes, it can.

Done incorrectly it can also make them much less-abled players. Again, it's a double edged sword. Use it well, and it can help. Use it poorly and you'll cut yourself.


In the original post, sfatbn07 indicated attempting to get very basic things from buzzing and communicate very basic ideas. Reminds me of a brass methods class honestly. And if they are beginners or close to it, then by all means teach them like beginners. Drop the theory crap, drop the high level exercises, drop trying to teach them like you're taught, and stop trying to teach them like college brass players. Instead use simple, but effective instructions. If something doesn't work, rather then trying it again and again until it does or they quit, drop it and try something else. Slowly build in any higher level theory. Don't just start off with it. Instead try to position it so that at the end of your class they have a basic understanding of the fundamentals that they should do. Slowly, gradually, and connect it with what they are playing.

Believe it or not, these are common mistakes- especially from college players. They spend so much time learning advanced methods, yet still do not understand them enough to in turn make them basic again.

Something to remember with any teaching: You can help AND you can harm. You can even do both at the same time. Choose your path carefully.

Take care,
B0B
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« Reply #37 on: Dec 08, 2010, 04:13PM »

To clarify a bit here-

Buzzing, especially free buzzing, is very much a double edged sword.

Used properly, removing the trombone and sometimes the mouthpiece can help refine what the body's job is in the equation. To do that however, you must have a strong concept of what the body's job actually is first. Take away the horn, take away the mouthpiece, and ask someone to practice buzzing who really doesn't know how to play... To call that a can of worms would be an understatement. The limitations and resistance of the horn and mouthpiece are often what help young players bring their bodies in line. They work within those limitations to improve their sound, range, and ability, and slowly figure out how to make an embouchure. Slowly figure out how to breathe and blow. Without those limitations... it's easy to begin to experiment with things you could never do on a horn. It's easy to form an embouchure that has nothing to do with trombone playing. It's easy to do everything wrong.

Can buzzing help- even beginners?

Yes, It can.

I've found it can be a wonderful help when a kid just isn't getting a buzz. His sound is very airy, he has no range, and he doesn't know what to do. At that point I have the kid slightly cover the end of the mouthpiece with a finger to get some resistance, and then we work on how to make a sound. I've only found that helpful in small groups or individual however, and done in large groups it's akin to shooting yourself in the foot.

Can buzzing help much more-abled players?

Yes, it can.

Done incorrectly it can also make them much less-abled players. Again, it's a double edged sword. Use it well, and it can help. Use it poorly and you'll cut yourself.


In the original post, sfatbn07 indicated attempting to get very basic things from buzzing and communicate very basic ideas. Reminds me of a brass methods class honestly. And if they are beginners or close to it, then by all means teach them like beginners. Drop the theory crap, drop the high level exercises, drop trying to teach them like you're taught, and stop trying to teach them like college brass players. Instead use simple, but effective instructions. If something doesn't work, rather then trying it again and again until it does or they quit, drop it and try something else. Slowly build in any higher level theory. Don't just start off with it. Instead try to position it so that at the end of your class they have a basic understanding of the fundamentals that they should do. Slowly, gradually, and connect it with what they are playing.

Believe it or not, these are common mistakes- especially from college players. They spend so much time learning advanced methods, yet still do not understand them enough to in turn make them basic again.

Something to remember with any teaching: You can help AND you can harm. You can even do both at the same time. Choose your path carefully.

Take care,
B0B

And you, sir, appear to be something of a double-edged poster.

How do you reconcile the post above with this one?

Quote
Suggestion for improving the buzzing-

Don't do it.

I've found it may help to do just a few short minutes of buzzing before playing just to give them an idea of what to do once the mouthpiece is on the lips, but beyond that... you're looking to cause some problems.

Playing low brass is about playing low brass.

Only use buzzing sparingly when it is helpful.

If you keep working on it and it isn't going anywhere- it isn't helpful! Stop!

Take care,
B0B
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« Reply #38 on: Dec 08, 2010, 05:53PM »

Pretty easy to reconcile.

The earlier one is simply a shorter version, without the explanation of why. The poster's been trying this method, hasn't worked... ok, stop and move on. Later, yes it has some good aspects but in this case the negatives outweigh the good and he's not making any ground. Stop and move on. With a bit more about teaching added in as well.

Neither post really conflicts with the other.

Is there part of that you disagree with?

Take care,
B0B
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« Reply #39 on: Dec 08, 2010, 06:26PM »

Pretty easy to reconcile.

The earlier one is simply a shorter version, without the explanation of why. The poster's been trying this method, hasn't worked... ok, stop and move on. Later, yes it has some good aspects but in this case the negatives outweigh the good and he's not making any ground. Stop and move on. With a bit more about teaching added in as well.

Neither post really conflicts with the other.

Is there part of that you disagree with?

Take care,
B0B

Yes, there is.

This part:

Quote
Don't do it.


Not "Do it better."

Not "Try to understand how it works."

Just "Don't do it.["

Here.

Quote
I have a problem with atacks in the middle range.

Answer:

Quote
Don't do it.

Bullshite.

Understand!!!

You're all over the place.

End of conversation.

S.


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Visit <http://samburtis.com/>. Lots of information on that site in the form of articles plus a link to my method book "Time, Balance & Connections-A Universal Theory Of Brass Relativity" which includes several chapters of the book.
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