Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1092575 Posts in 72179 Topics- by 19440 Members - Latest Member: drater421
Jump to:  
Pages: [1] 2 3  All   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Bell ringing  (Read 6497 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Doghouse Dan

*
Offline Offline

Location: Winchendon, MA
Joined: Apr 21, 2003
Posts: 580

View Profile
« on: Oct 11, 2010, 05:48PM »

I recently picked up a pretty nice 88h for short money. I initially fell for the sound, but once I got it home and played on it a bit,  I discovered that the bell resonates whenever I play a G (any octave), also rings a G when I play a D on the staff. Any ideas on damping or other techniques to kill the ring?
Logged

Dan Walker
I'm warning you - I have a trombone and I'm not afraid to use it...
Euphanasia

*
Offline Offline

Location: Moses Lake, WA
Joined: Jan 20, 2005
Posts: 5918

View Profile
« Reply #1 on: Oct 11, 2010, 06:07PM »

Test out a theory for me, if you would. A very well-respected tech once told me that especially on the 88H and 8H, ringing can be a result of work-hardened metal at the bell brace flange. He claims that to fix it, the best thing to do is to remove the bell, bell brace and the lacquer, anneal the bell throat where it's been damaged, and then re-assemble. Is there damage to the throat?
Logged
Doghouse Dan

*
Offline Offline

Location: Winchendon, MA
Joined: Apr 21, 2003
Posts: 580

View Profile
« Reply #2 on: Oct 11, 2010, 06:47PM »

Define throat, please?
Logged

Dan Walker
I'm warning you - I have a trombone and I'm not afraid to use it...
Euphanasia

*
Offline Offline

Location: Moses Lake, WA
Joined: Jan 20, 2005
Posts: 5918

View Profile
« Reply #3 on: Oct 11, 2010, 07:20PM »

Right in front of where the bell brace is attached the the bell. It's a common spot for damage. If the bell gets whacked in a downward direction, you'll get creases and wrinkles right in that area.
Logged
Doghouse Dan

*
Offline Offline

Location: Winchendon, MA
Joined: Apr 21, 2003
Posts: 580

View Profile
« Reply #4 on: Oct 11, 2010, 07:33PM »

Very interesting.  I can't can't see any evidence of a crinkle being removed at that spot, but there is a small crease in the bell.  I also see a some left over solder on the bell brace flange, and also where the bell flare connects to the tuning slide thingy.  Even at their worst, did Conn leave messy solder joints?
Logged

Dan Walker
I'm warning you - I have a trombone and I'm not afraid to use it...
Euphanasia

*
Offline Offline

Location: Moses Lake, WA
Joined: Jan 20, 2005
Posts: 5918

View Profile
« Reply #5 on: Oct 11, 2010, 07:46PM »

How's the lacquer in that area? Doe it look like it's been refinished?

I've never known Conn to have visible solder at the bell brace, so I think there's a good chance that it was repaired, and that the metal in the throat is hardened. It's hard to say whether it's worthwhile to try to anneal it. If it has good lacquer, the repair will reduce the value significantly and might not fix the ringing. Probably not worthwhile. If the lacquer isn't so hot, it seems like it would be worthwhile.
Logged
Doghouse Dan

*
Offline Offline

Location: Winchendon, MA
Joined: Apr 21, 2003
Posts: 580

View Profile
« Reply #6 on: Oct 11, 2010, 08:06PM »

Quote
How's the lacquer in that area? Doe it look like it's been refinished?

That's the odd thing - the lacquer looks untouched, and I can usually tell if the metal has been worked on.

I'm not so much concerned with resale as with being able to actually use it.
Logged

Dan Walker
I'm warning you - I have a trombone and I'm not afraid to use it...
Euphanasia

*
Offline Offline

Location: Moses Lake, WA
Joined: Jan 20, 2005
Posts: 5918

View Profile
« Reply #7 on: Oct 11, 2010, 08:12PM »

What part of the bell is the crease in?
Logged
Doghouse Dan

*
Offline Offline

Location: Winchendon, MA
Joined: Apr 21, 2003
Posts: 580

View Profile
« Reply #8 on: Oct 11, 2010, 08:17PM »

All the way at the end of the flare opposite the slide - as if got whacked while being carried.  It's not large - I didn't spot it until I got the horn home.

Logged

Dan Walker
I'm warning you - I have a trombone and I'm not afraid to use it...
ssherwick

*
Offline Offline

Location: Minnetonka, Minnesota
Joined: Sep 30, 2006
Posts: 889

View Profile
« Reply #9 on: Oct 11, 2010, 09:56PM »

Ringing at a single tone is almost always caused by something loose, a solder joint at a brace could just be hanging on, there could actually be a solder ball loose in a bell brace, the bell rim wire could be loose. You're basically hitting a harmonic and just like crystal the bell is ringing with it.

Have some one hold the horn in various locations and see if the ringing goes away. You should be able to get close the the spot.

Or take it to a tech and play it for him/her and have the tech listen for it.

It's usually pretty obvious when you find it.

I have a Bach 42 that has a loose solder joint at the bell brace that sings like mad when I play High B flat. I have to have it soldered sometime I guess, I just stuck a piece of paper in between the brace and the bell for the moment to shut it up.
Logged
Doghouse Dan

*
Offline Offline

Location: Winchendon, MA
Joined: Apr 21, 2003
Posts: 580

View Profile
« Reply #10 on: Oct 12, 2010, 06:45AM »

I can play one of the offending G's one handed in fourth position, and damp different parts of the horn with my left hand. I found I could kill the ring by damping the bell midway between the bell flange and the end of the horn, nowhere near any solder or potential loose stuff.

By the way, the bell rings on the same pitch when I ping it with my fingernail.
Logged

Dan Walker
I'm warning you - I have a trombone and I'm not afraid to use it...
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 51538
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: Oct 12, 2010, 07:12AM »

It's crude, but sometimes you can get the ring to stop by applying some Duct Tape to the spot where you were able to damp the ring.  It's a lot cheaper than having the bell removed and annealed.
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch. President 2017-2018
Doghouse Dan

*
Offline Offline

Location: Winchendon, MA
Joined: Apr 21, 2003
Posts: 580

View Profile
« Reply #12 on: Oct 12, 2010, 07:15AM »

I actually tried putting tape on the area that seemed to respond to my damping.  No luck, but it wasn't duct or gaffers tape, and it was late and I got distracted by a shiny object, so I haven't pursued that course too extensively yet.
Logged

Dan Walker
I'm warning you - I have a trombone and I'm not afraid to use it...
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 51538
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: Oct 12, 2010, 07:54AM »

When you hold the area to stop it ringing you are applying a LARGE damping force.  To do the same with a tape means you need a fairly large, compliant tape. 

Try wrapping foam around the area and then tape it in position.  I think this is the idea behind that Lindberg appliance that is supposed to help your tone.
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch. President 2017-2018
Doghouse Dan

*
Offline Offline

Location: Winchendon, MA
Joined: Apr 21, 2003
Posts: 580

View Profile
« Reply #14 on: Oct 12, 2010, 08:53AM »

Maybe I should try vice-grips?
Logged

Dan Walker
I'm warning you - I have a trombone and I'm not afraid to use it...
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 51538
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: Oct 12, 2010, 09:06AM »

Maybe I should try vice-grips?

Around a sweat sock, maybe.
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch. President 2017-2018
Euphanasia

*
Offline Offline

Location: Moses Lake, WA
Joined: Jan 20, 2005
Posts: 5918

View Profile
« Reply #16 on: Oct 12, 2010, 09:17AM »

Do you have access to another 88H? Swapping out tuning slides and F-Att slides might help. Rings are weird. I had a rotary-valve horn that rang like crazy on certain notes. If you held the bell rim or the third valve tubing, it would stop. Turned out it was a loose rotor bearing.

Speaking of which, have you tried holding the end of the rotor spindle while you're playing? It's an overlooked spot, but it can set up very solid vibration.
Logged
fluor

*
Offline Offline

Location: norway
Joined: Oct 3, 2005
Posts: 1021

View Profile
« Reply #17 on: Oct 12, 2010, 12:42PM »

I had a 88H that ringed when t was new.

I greased the main tuning slide and it went away!
Logged
Doghouse Dan

*
Offline Offline

Location: Winchendon, MA
Joined: Apr 21, 2003
Posts: 580

View Profile
« Reply #18 on: Oct 12, 2010, 01:48PM »

Euph: No other 88 slide available (right now).  Held the valve spindle, no joy.  Removed the f tuning slide, likewise disappointed.

Fluor: re-greased the tuning slides (they were pretty dry).  Still ringing.
Logged

Dan Walker
I'm warning you - I have a trombone and I'm not afraid to use it...
Duffle
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Apr 7, 2005
Posts: 2903

View Profile
« Reply #19 on: Oct 14, 2010, 02:39PM »

How old is the 88H? Elkie 88's are notorious for ringing aroung the G and Gb area. Modern ones are less prone to it. Some guys like the feel of the bell ringing, others don't. Ian Bousfield who is basically a Conn-guy once said he decided not to use his Conns for a series of Concerto performances because of the response of the Conn in the G area would at some stage 'land him in it'. You may have to live with it or get a new instrument................
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3  All   Go Up
Print
Jump to: